The abomination of desolation

[Shilohsfoal]

So Christ returns to get His church, at HIS OWN trumpet blast, called "the trump of God."

Coop

And do you know where Jesus said his church would be gatherd at the sound of the trumpet?

Ps
It might help to learn what the word last means when speaking of the last trump.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hey MDO, I'll be with you also. The church's job is one of charity, especially in the face of disaster. A witness for all to see, even in times of tribulation. (see my siggy)

There would be no point in Christ return unless there were Christians that needed to be saved.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Isaiah 29:8
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains; as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched. So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.

Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Mount Zion.

Revelation 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

 

[lecoop]

Coop

Throughout time Christians have gone through tribulations,Christians have died from the most horrible deaths imaginable and some still are....My question to you is,why are those in the end so special as to not go through any....In other words,why does He take you all(rapturist)away but all other's in history had to suffer?

Do you even know what the tribulation is all about,if so would you care to explain....

Why do you all want to fly away,what's going to happen to those of us left here on this earth?What's the worst that can happen,is it not death,yet the Word of God says that I should not fear those who are able to kill the flesh,so tell me,what am I to be afraid of while you all are supposidly gone?

oh, Onelove, if you could only believe the bible!

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

After the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease runs out. Therefore, Satan is no longer the god of the world. The kingdoms of the world go back to God. Then, finally, His will will be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

If you even think it would be His will for His children to suffer great tribulation, you have a very warped view of our Father. Can you picture Jesus when He was on the earth, forcing people to either deny Him or die? That is just not God's character.

Did you never read?

Heb 11
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I can understand "better things for us."

Did not Jesus Himself tell us to escape?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why the "tribulation" or 70th week? Simply put, because God NEVER goes back on a promise!

But here is the answer to your question:

Dan 12:7
...and when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter, crush, completely destroy, break, ] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

By the way, this verse is not about the church. We have no appointment. Therefore, I will not show up.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

God is outside looking in? :o

God's will has not been accomplished? :o

God was LIMITED in what HE could do??? :crazy



God's will is constantly being within and without us. To attempt to limit the power of the creator is preposterous and borderline blasphemous IMO. :verysad

Please, please, people, understand that tribulation is of this world; it is NOT directly caused by the LORD, though HE does allows it, for HIS purpose. Please stop confusing or merging tribulation with God's vengeful wrath!

 

[lecoop]

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

God is outside looking in? :o

God's will has not been accomplished? :o

God was LIMITED in what HE could do??? :crazy



God's will is constantly being within and without us. To attempt to limit the power of the creator is preposterous and borderline blasphemous IMO. :verysad

Please, please, people, understand that tribulation is of this world; it is NOT directly caused by the LORD, though HE does allows it, for HIS purpose. Please stop confusing or merging tribulation with God's vengeful wrath!

I guess we have trouble reading?

Psalm 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Question: was God limited? answer: YES.
Who limited Him? Israel limited Him.
How did they limit Him? With their unbelief.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Question: WAs Jesus limited in "mighty works?" Answer: YES.

WHO limited Him? Those living in his "own country."
HOW did they limit Him? By their unbelief.

HERE is an example of God's will for earth:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But what really happens on earth?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

WHAT is this telling us? That God's will is NOT BEING ACCOMPLISHED on earth.

Final proof: God's will:

Rev 21
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now, look around and see if you see God's will done on earth.

I guess you also forgot this one:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Is this the will of the Father? Of course not, for "He is not willing that any should parish." This is the will of SAtan who is presently the god of this world.

So I stand firm on what I have written: God will not have his perfect will on earth until all power is under Jesus feet, and He has turned everything back to the Father. I think that will be when we have a NEW heaven and earth.

Can Satan be God BOTH be god of this world at the same time? What? co-rulership? Not on your life! Satan is the present God of this world. When Adam sinned he turned Adams authority over this planet to Satan, and Satan has held it ever since. Therefore ADAM limited God, by turning the whole human race over to Satan.

Coop

 

[Elijah674]

Who says that there was a war at both DESOLATIONS??? In the 'Midst of the Week' (Christ was executed by His very OWN!) & 39 years later the Site was demolished! (70 AD) And the first time?? what made Israel DESOLATE?? (with a new leader?) And where was there any war or fight other than a 'SPIRITUAL' one???

OK: Now, which DESOLATION sealed the Second/Death ones fate as a Nation? Rev. 2:5's 'Candlestick' [OUT OF HIS PLACE]. (compare Luke 12:47-48)

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

God is outside looking in? :o

God's will has not been accomplished? :o

God was LIMITED in what HE could do??? :crazy


God's will is constantly being within and without us. To attempt to limit the power of the creator is preposterous and borderline blasphemous IMO.

Please, please, people, understand that tribulation is of this world; it is NOT directly caused by the LORD, though HE does allows it, for HIS purpose. Please stop confusing or merging tribulation with God's vengeful wrath!

***********
Hay Vic, Elijah here: One of us read you right anyhow, huh! Hope that you did not mind my highlight below?
***********

Vic stated:

God's will is constantly being within and without us. To attempt to limit the power of the creator is preposterous and borderline blasphemous IMO. :verysad

Please, please, people, understand that tribulation is of this world; it is NOT directly caused by the LORD, though HE does allows it, for HIS purpose. Please stop confusing or merging tribulation with God's vengeful wrath!

I guess we have trouble reading?

Psalm 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Question: was God limited? answer: YES.
Who limited Him? Israel limited Him.
How did they limit Him? With their unbelief.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Question: WAs Jesus limited in "mighty works?" Answer: YES.

WHO limited Him? Those living in his "own country."
HOW did they limit Him? By their unbelief.

HERE is an example of God's will for earth:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But what really happens on earth?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

WHAT is this telling us? That God's will is NOT BEING ACCOMPLISHED on earth.

Final proof: God's will:

Rev 21
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now, look around and see if you see God's will done on earth.

I guess you also forgot this one:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Is this the will of the Father? Of course not, for "He is not willing that any should parish." This is the will of SAtan who is presently the god of this world.

So I stand firm on what I have written: God will not have his perfect will on earth until all power is under Jesus feet, and He has turned everything back to the Father. I think that will be when we have a NEW heaven and earth.

Can Satan be God BOTH be god of this world at the same time? What? co-rulership? Not on your life! Satan is the present God of this world. When Adam sinned he turned Adams authority over this planet to Satan, and Satan has held it ever since. Therefore ADAM limited God, by turning the whole human race over to Satan.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Throughout time Christians have gone through tribulations,Christians have died from the most horrible deaths imaginable and some still are....My question to you is,why are those in the end so special as to not go through any....In other words,why does He take you all(rapturist)away but all other's in history had to suffer?

Do you even know what the tribulation is all about,if so would you care to explain....

Why do you all want to fly away,what's going to happen to those of us left here on this earth?What's the worst that can happen,is it not death,yet the Word of God says that I should not fear those who are able to kill the flesh,so tell me,what am I to be afraid of while you all are supposidly gone?

oh, Onelove, if you could only believe the bible!

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

After the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease runs out. Therefore, Satan is no longer the god of the world. The kingdoms of the world go back to God. Then, finally, His will will be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

If you even think it would be His will for His children to suffer great tribulation, you have a very warped view of our Father. Can you picture Jesus when He was on the earth, forcing people to either deny Him or die? That is just not God's character.

Did you never read?

Heb 11
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I can understand "better things for us."

Did not Jesus Himself tell us to escape?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why the "tribulation" or 70th week? Simply put, because God NEVER goes back on a promise!

But here is the answer to your question:

Dan 12:7
...and when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter, crush, completely destroy, break, ] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

By the way, this verse is not about the church. We have no appointment. Therefore, I will not show up.

Coop

Your post didn't answer my question....Bottom line question is this,why are you afraid of death when scripture tells us not to be?Nowhere did I say our Father wants us to be tortured,the point was,many throughout history have been,so why should you escape?However being that the tribulation is all about deception and not torture,it really dosn't matter.I am curious to know what is it you think will be happening during the tribulation?....

 

[Elijah674]

There is NO POWER BUT IT IS ALLOWED OF GOD! [PERIOD!!] The [PLAN] of the Godhead has set satans [boundaries!] Job for one! Even Christ BROKEN Bones! And Christ Tortured Himself??
THEY (the Godhead) were actually on trial by their own set of [ALLOWED] rules to the ETERNITIES OF THE UNIVERSE to Prove that Nah. 1:9 would never again be!

Yet remember, that when Christ died, Christ won back Adam's LOST DOMAIN & theHoly Spirit was again seen in full force as omnipresent! (AS AT THE BEGINNING!)

And if not?? satan could never be destroyed (on this false teaching that he is 'STILL' god of the earth) along with all of his Gen. 4:6 DESIRED ones into Oblivion! Obad. 1:16 + Nah. 1:9
And US?? See below...

Heb. 8
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
(See Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 And HE ALLOWES IT, but only as HE makes a way of escape to where we will not be tempted above what we are able!)

[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (Look this verse up in the K.J. translation! It means that we are SEVERED again from God!)

OK: Here is found even false teachings of OSAS! These ones are ones who run from REQUIRED HARD DUTIES! A dirty church that requires CLEANING UP! (the way past 120 years of the Holy Ghost's STRIVING with Rev. 17:1-5

--Elijah!

PS: And the Masters Prayer??

Luke.11
[1] And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

[2] And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. [[Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.]]

[3] Give us day by day our daily bread.

[4] And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

 

[veteran]

If God is with us, then where do we need to escape to? The coming "strong delusion" upon the majority of the world is not meant for us who remain faithful to Christ, waiting for His coming. And that certainly does not mean we have to leave this earth to escape it.

Being counted worthy to escape the "snare" our Lord Jesus was talking about in Luke 21 has absolutely nothing to do with being removed off this earth for the tribulation.

Instead, it's about being worthy to escape the "snare" He was talking about. And just what is that "snare" He was talking about in the Luke 21:35 verse which goes with that?

Luke 21:34-35
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
(KJV)

That's about the same warning Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 that Christ's coming as a thief is not to overtake US as a thief, but only upon those who are in darkness and are not watching the "times and the seasons" leading up to His return. IT'S ABOUT ESCAPING THE COMING DECEPTION, not physically escaping off this earth with a Pre-trib "secret rapture."

At the end of Luke 17, the disciples asked our Lord Jesus 'where' the first one in the field would be 'taken' to. His answer was wheresoever the dead are, that's where the eagles (vultures actually is meant) will be gathered. In the Matt.24:28 version of that, the word "carcase" is used, put for a dead lifeless body. It means being taken in that time, i.e., with a false pre-trib rapture, will be to the wrong one. That is the "snare" our Lord Jesus was warning about, for He had JUST covered that very point in Luke 17 before getting to the Luke 21 chapter.

The Bible student is supposed to keep the flow of chapter events in the mind during study, and also in other Bible Books where the subject is covered. The events of the end our Lord Jesus gave in Luke 21 parallel the events He gave upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13. In those chapters He warned of a particular false messiah coming to Jerusalem to deceive ("false Christs"= a pseudo Christ per the Greek). Our Lord associated that false one's coming with the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel. That's the main snare He was talking about that is to come upon the whole world, and it will cause many to misinterpret the time of our gathering to Christ at His coming.

It's that time period when the false messiah comes that will offer a false "Peace and safety" period on the earth to make one think Christ has returned, and to make one think the false messiah is Christ. In Luke 21:34, our Lord warned us that if we fall away to the "cares of this life", the day of His coming would become like a "snare" because of not watching.

 

[Elijah674]

I see it talking about the END TIME Test of 666 also. And these Rev. 3:10 ones as the Saved, leaving Laodicea, with Laodicea becoming the Church of satan in ibid. 9. And at this TIME/PERIOD? It means Matt. 24:21's trouble .. 'such as was not since the beginning of the world (+ The Flood!) to this time, no NOR EVER SHALLBE.'! So the 666 will be a time to FORCE RELIGEON by Caesars means to try to appease the Prophecy of God! A revival of sorts with NO Reformation. And FORCED CHURCH??? Rom. 13 will be worn out, huh? Anyway, that is how Elijah see's it. (and we are at present in the escalating time of satan's hell!)

 

[lecoop]

Coop

Throughout time Christians have gone through tribulations,Christians have died from the most horrible deaths imaginable and some still are....My question to you is,why are those in the end so special as to not go through any....In other words,why does He take you all(rapturist)away but all other's in history had to suffer?

Do you even know what the tribulation is all about,if so would you care to explain....

Why do you all want to fly away,what's going to happen to those of us left here on this earth?What's the worst that can happen,is it not death,yet the Word of God says that I should not fear those who are able to kill the flesh,so tell me,what am I to be afraid of while you all are supposidly gone?

oh, Onelove, if you could only believe the bible!

There have been dispensations, where God dealt with man differently. But in all dispensations up to the end, Satan has been the "god of the world." God has been outside looking in, so to speak. Do you undestand that God's will has NOT BE ACCOMPLISHED since the days of Adam? It is NEVER God's will that people die and go to hell. But every day many do. It was not God's will that Christians were fed to lions, or used as torches, or burned at the stake. But these things happened, because God was LIMITED in what He could do. God's will is ALWAYS done in heaven, but not on earth.

After the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease runs out. Therefore, Satan is no longer the god of the world. The kingdoms of the world go back to God. Then, finally, His will will be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

If you even think it would be His will for His children to suffer great tribulation, you have a very warped view of our Father. Can you picture Jesus when He was on the earth, forcing people to either deny Him or die? That is just not God's character.

Did you never read?

Heb 11
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I can understand "better things for us."

Did not Jesus Himself tell us to escape?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why the "tribulation" or 70th week? Simply put, because God NEVER goes back on a promise!

But here is the answer to your question:

Dan 12:7
...and when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter, crush, completely destroy, break, ] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

By the way, this verse is not about the church. We have no appointment. Therefore, I will not show up.

Coop

Your post didn't answer my question....Bottom line question is this,why are you afraid of death when scripture tells us not to be?Nowhere did I say our Father wants us to be tortured,the point was,many throughout history have been,so why should you escape?However being that the tribulation is all about deception and not torture,it really dosn't matter.I am curious to know what is it you think will be happening during the tribulation?....

If you think there will be no torture during the tribulation, you are sadly mistaken. Of course the Beast will do ANYTHING to get people to deny their God. John was boiled in oil. So that is to be expected. Of course, Satan will be behind it, trying to get believers to accept the mark, because he knows they will be damned. THAT is his goal.

Of course I am not affraid of death. But the point is, I am not going to volunteer either. I have no appointment and will not show up.

If you THINK that it is God's will to leave us here during this time, then you are as much as saying that it is His will that Christians are faced with all kinds of torture and threat of losing their heads.

Coop

 

[Elijah674]

Heb. 12
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
(See Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 And HE ALLOWES IT, but only as HE makes a way of escape to where we will not be tempted above what we are able!)

[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye sweethearts, and not sons. (Look this verse up in the K.J. translation! It means that we are SEVERED again from God!)

So your choice is to take this verse 8 way out? (personally, I think that you are a ----='s Cop/Out!!
--Elijah

 

[lecoop]

When someone says, "it means...." we need to be on the alert.

Veteran wrote,

At the end of Luke 17, the disciples asked our Lord Jesus 'where' the first one in the field would be 'taken' to. His answer was wheresoever the dead are, that's where the eagles (vultures actually is meant) will be gathered. In the Matt.24:28 version of that, the word "carcase" is used, put for a dead lifeless body. It means being taken in that time, i.e., with a false pre-trib rapture, will be to the wrong one.

There is no doubt, we don't want to be the ones "taken" in Luke. It seems their spirit is snatched right out of their bodies, and the bodies become bird food. But is this speaking of the rapture as Veteran is hinting? ("it means...") No, this is not in any way associated with Paul's dead in Christ rising; then we that are alive and remain being caught up. These that are taken in Luke, are taken at the END of the 70th week. The church is snatched away before the 7th week begins. (Read Rev. 7 very carefully.)

So what is this "one taken and one left" in Luke? Compare:

Matthew 13:
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather [one taken and one left] out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Text added for comparison.)

Of course when this parable is played out in real life, the angels WILL take one and leave another. People that are LAWLESS, that offend God, and that do iniquity, will be snatched right out of their bodies and cast straight into hell. You can BET, those that trade in human flesh, selling kids into the sex trade are VERY offensive to God. They will be taken, no questions asked.

So this is not speaking about the rapture of the church at all.

Coop

 

[veteran]

When someone says, "it means...." we need to be on the alert.

Veteran wrote,

At the end of Luke 17, the disciples asked our Lord Jesus 'where' the first one in the field would be 'taken' to. His answer was wheresoever the dead are, that's where the eagles (vultures actually is meant) will be gathered. In the Matt.24:28 version of that, the word "carcase" is used, put for a dead lifeless body. It means being taken in that time, i.e., with a false pre-trib rapture, will be to the wrong one.

There is no doubt, we don't want to be the ones "taken" in Luke. It seems their spirit is snatched right out of their bodies, and the bodies become bird food. But is this speaking of the rapture as Veteran is hinting? ("it means...") No, this is not in any way associated with Paul's dead in Christ rising; then we that are alive and remain being caught up. These that are taken in Luke, are taken at the END of the 70th week. The church is snatched away before the 7th week begins. (Read Rev. 7 very carefully.)

So what is this "one taken and one left" in Luke? Compare:

Matthew 13:
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather [one taken and one left] out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Text added for comparison.)

Of course when this parable is played out in real life, the angels WILL take one and leave another. People that are LAWLESS, that offend God, and that do iniquity, will be snatched right out of their bodies and cast straight into hell. You can BET, those that trade in human flesh, selling kids into the sex trade are VERY offensive to God. They will be taken, no questions asked.

So this is not speaking about the rapture of the church at all.

Coop

It doesn't require much study to remember what our Lord had just said prior to the 'taken' idea in verses 34-37, that is IF one pays attention and can remember.

Luke 17:26-29
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(KJV)

Now why would our Lord Jesus give that before the one taken and the other left in the field idea?

It's because of WHERE those taken are GATHERED TO.

Matt 24:26-28
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

Eagles don't go after dead carcases, instead eagles kill their prey. But vultures do go after what is already dead. How much does it take to figure out all this is about those first ones taken ALREADY BEING FOUND GATHERED AMONG THE EAGLES (i.e., vultures that go after carcases) when Christ does come? In the Matt.24:28 version of that, that false gathering to the fake eagles by the deceived is associated with misunderstanding the events of Christ's coming.

It's because prior to Christ's coming, many will be saying the false messiah who comes first is Christ already returned. And it's that false messiah who the deceived believers are going to be gathering to, which is why they become symbolic carcases, i.e., spiritually dead. They didn't wait and got the times and the seasons of Christ's return mixed up.

And in that time after His return, like our Lord showed in Matt.25 with the five foolish virgins, He will say to those deceived carcases, "...Verily I say to you, I know you not." (Matt.25:12). In the very next Matt.25 verse our Lord gave the warning to watch, the same type of warning He was giving in the Luke 17 Scripture.

Now what doctrine of man could it be that preaches to "fly away" PRIOR to the tribulation? The pre-trib "secret rapture" theory. This is what lecoop has missed.

 

[Elijah674]

When someone says, "it means...." we need to be on the alert.

Veteran wrote,

At the end of Luke 17, the disciples asked our Lord Jesus 'where' the first one in the field would be 'taken' to. His answer was wheresoever the dead are, that's where the eagles (vultures actually is meant) will be gathered. In the Matt.24:28 version of that, the word "carcase" is used, put for a dead lifeless body. It means being taken in that time, i.e., with a false pre-trib rapture, will be to the wrong one.

There is no doubt, we don't want to be the ones "taken" in Luke. It seems their spirit is snatched right out of their bodies, and the bodies become bird food. But is this speaking of the rapture as Veteran is hinting? ("it means...") No, this is not in any way associated with Paul's dead in Christ rising; then we that are alive and remain being caught up. These that are taken in Luke, are taken at the END of the 70th week. The church is snatched away before the 7th week begins. (Read Rev. 7 very carefully.)

So what is this "one taken and one left" in Luke? Compare:

Matthew 13:
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather [one taken and one left] out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Text added for comparison.)

Of course when this parable is played out in real life, the angels WILL take one and leave another. People that are LAWLESS, that offend God, and that do iniquity, will be snatched right out of their bodies and cast straight into hell. You can BET, those that trade in human flesh, selling kids into the sex trade are VERY offensive to God. They will be taken, no questions asked.

So this is not speaking about the rapture of the church at all.

Coop

FOOLISHNESS! Matt. 25 +

 

[lecoop]

When someone says, "it means...." we need to be on the alert.

Veteran wrote,

At the end of Luke 17, the disciples asked our Lord Jesus 'where' the first one in the field would be 'taken' to. His answer was wheresoever the dead are, that's where the eagles (vultures actually is meant) will be gathered. In the Matt.24:28 version of that, the word "carcase" is used, put for a dead lifeless body. It means being taken in that time, i.e., with a false pre-trib rapture, will be to the wrong one.

There is no doubt, we don't want to be the ones "taken" in Luke. It seems their spirit is snatched right out of their bodies, and the bodies become bird food. But is this speaking of the rapture as Veteran is hinting? ("it means...") No, this is not in any way associated with Paul's dead in Christ rising; then we that are alive and remain being caught up. These that are taken in Luke, are taken at the END of the 70th week. The church is snatched away before the 7th week begins. (Read Rev. 7 very carefully.)

So what is this "one taken and one left" in Luke? Compare:

Matthew 13:
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather [one taken and one left] out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Text added for comparison.)

Of course when this parable is played out in real life, the angels WILL take one and leave another. People that are LAWLESS, that offend God, and that do iniquity, will be snatched right out of their bodies and cast straight into hell. You can BET, those that trade in human flesh, selling kids into the sex trade are VERY offensive to God. They will be taken, no questions asked.

So this is not speaking about the rapture of the church at all.

Coop

It doesn't require much study to remember what our Lord had just said prior to the 'taken' idea in verses 34-37, that is IF one pays attention and can remember.

Luke 17:26-29
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(KJV)

Now why would our Lord Jesus give that before the one taken and the other left in the field idea?

It's because of WHERE those taken are GATHERED TO.

Matt 24:26-28
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

Eagles don't go after dead carcases, instead eagles kill their prey. But vultures do go after what is already dead. How much does it take to figure out all this is about those first ones taken ALREADY BEING FOUND GATHERED AMONG THE EAGLES (i.e., vultures that go after carcases) when Christ does come? In the Matt.24:28 version of that, that false gathering to the fake eagles by the deceived is associated with misunderstanding the events of Christ's coming.

It's because prior to Christ's coming, many will be saying the false messiah who comes first is Christ already returned. And it's that false messiah who the deceived believers are going to be gathering to, which is why they become symbolic carcases, i.e., spiritually dead. They didn't wait and got the times and the seasons of Christ's return mixed up.

And in that time after His return, like our Lord showed in Matt.25 with the five foolish virgins, He will say to those deceived carcases, "...Verily I say to you, I know you not." (Matt.25:12). In the very next Matt.25 verse our Lord gave the warning to watch, the same type of warning He was giving in the Luke 17 Scripture.

Now what doctrine of man could it be that preaches to "fly away" PRIOR to the tribulation? The pre-trib "secret rapture" theory. This is what lecoop has missed.

Sorry, but you are not correctly dividing the word of truth. Jesus was not talking about the church: He was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age, DANIEL's 70th week. Can you find Gentiles somewhere in DANIEL's 70th week? It is not for us or about us. End times scriptures are about three groups of people, the church, the nations and the Jews. If you don't understand to which of these three a scripture is directed, you will stay confused. The Olived discourse is simple not about the church.

So what was Jesus main point about Noah? He said, "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." His point is NOT who was taken and who was left; His point was the SUDDENESS of it all. Those people were living life to the fullest right up until it started to rain. Same with Lot. Jesus is warning that the end will come SUDDENLY, Just as Paul wrote about the "sudden destruction." We get raptured and those left behind face sudden destruction; the mighty earthquake at the 6th seal.

It is always good to get a scripture IN context:

Luk 17
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.



When? The day that Jesus comes. As I said, it is speaking of the parable of the tares. again, this parable has NOTHING to do with the Gentile church of which we are a part. God will take us OUT 7 years before this parable of the tares will take place.

Sorry, but when dead bodies are mentioned with an "eagle," we can be sure that the bible is speaking of a bird that DOES eat dead flesh.

Why not just take Matthew for what he says, and not put your "spin" on it?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Just as in Luke, the dead bodies is associated with His coming. It seems that Jesus will not put up with lawless people for ONE SECOND. They will all be gathered and cast into hell, before Jesus even touches down.

Spiritually dead? is this the picture Jesus is making? What bible do you read?

Jesus is talking about REAL human bodies, laying dead. What does Jeremiah say?

Jer 25
33And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

This verse could well be speakiing of that day.

WHO are these verses aimed at? To the JEWS that are looking for their Messiah. I suspect VERY few Jews will be deceived by this, for they KNOW these verses; and they will not be deceived. The church will not be deceived, for they will be in heaven.

Why not just take John at His word: WHO will be deceived? All those "whose names are not written in the book of life." You keep thinking it is the church. Well, is YOUR name written in the book? I should hope so, and mine too; in fact, all born again people will have their name written there. Therefore, your theories just DON'T FOLLOW the book. The church will not be there, and will NOT be deceived.

Coop

 

[Elijah674]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!----------

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years. See Jer. 4:23-27 for the FULL PICTURE OF THE SINNER'S DESOLATION OF GOD!!

This 2nd resurrection is at the 1000 years ending! satan will have 1000 years to think over what his evil rebellion has caused! Yet, at the end of the 1000 years, and at this time, the wicked will all be resurrected, ALL OF ETERNITY will see that ALL have come to the point of full eternal uselessness (rebellion) for they come out of the grave the same rebellious way that they went into it! & God will at this time put them out of their misery! This is the penalty stage of their execution, they will suffer according to their deeds! See Eccl. 12:13-14.

These are to ALL be executed in this Second death slaughter, when the New Jerusalem descends at the end of these 1000 years. Their Judgement as to the 'length of suffering' will have been determined during the 1000 years of judgement by the heavenly accurate record books. See Luke 12:47-48. They will ALL be executed at this time. ALONG with Lucifer and his crew of angels, & all of his human evil Desiree's. (compare Gen. 4:7) The earth and the heavens will be cleansed by fire at this time, and then recreated before New Jerusalem sets down. See Eze. 28:18-19 & Obad. 16.

PS: There is more!
Moved from another thread to go further into the simple ETERNAL depth of Eccl. 12:13-14!

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. v. 13.

For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." v. 14

'let us hear the conclusion'. That is the bottom line of what mature faith is composed of, one way or the other!
This 'faith', is just that, FAITH only! The conclusion will tell if it is SAVING FAITH? It is not as yet a done deal!!

This FAITH KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD! (or it does not!) This is the 'WHOLE DUTY'! Interesting! Some here say that Christ is not God even? OK, then it is double sure that they best KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of their NO.1 God, huh! That is their 'whole duty'. But, they are not going to be there anyway until they find that their 'whole duty' is to 'Fear God;, and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." and then submit to His REQUIREMENTS!! See Acts 5:32.

Faith??? It is not a done deal yet! [ONLY THROUGH & BY FAITH.] How will your FAITH be judged in the .. 'accurate recorded record books' ... is the ... 'conclusion ... 'whole duty' .. of man! No Jew seen here either, for some of you other 'birds'! No nation of Israel either! These Heb. 11:13 ones, are seen as.. 'ALL DIED [IN] THE FAITH', included here were, from the first of Mankind on!! Even the ignorant ones of Rom. 2:14-15 who never even heard of the Master as we had are included! All of these that are included in Christ's creation of earth...MANKIND!!

The conclusion: Gods Commandments. His 'GOD' ETERNAL COVENANT! This does not say the Son. At the ending of the 1000 years, all of these D-E-A-D lost ones are to be judged by 'BOOKS' only, the James 2:8-12 Royal Covenant Law of God's ten Commandments. (see verse12) When Christ came, He brought His REWARD with Him. Saved or Lost! It was pre/decided as in 1 Peter 4:17, as is quoted in Dan. 12:1-2, as now being a done deal at this time, for these only! (closed door of all probation) The whole duty of man was now OVER! Saved or lost!

But the wicked are still all recorded in the record books! The 1000 years will find their judgement by, "For God shall bring every [work] into judgement, [with every secret thing,] wether it be good or whether it be evil." The only question asked when Christ stands up as our High Priest before the heavenly Ark of the Godhead, is, have they been obedient our Covenant, the ten Commandments? It was He that stated, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

It is these ones who will take part in the executional 'punishment' part of all the wicked, including satan and the wicked angels.

"Do ye not know that [the saints shall judge the world?] ... [Know ye not that *WE shall judge angels?] how much [more things that pertain to this life?]. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 in part & with my highlights for emphasis of waking up some who still might be awakened if possible!? Is it?? See Luke 16:31 for Christ's Words!

Then there are the ones who only want to be told 'sweet things'? Of Faith only, this is the finished product!!?? Do not tell me that my faith is not MATURELY FINISHED!!
Or the ones that have become Christians somehow by voiding out the James 2:12 Standard of 'The Whole Duty Of MANKIND' Judgement by the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead!

Then perhaps some of the 'worse stuff' is the loose cannon, go it alone ones? and some others who tell us that this is all 'the whole duty of man' 12 tribes of Israel & Jewish stuff? Regardless of where all of this Rev. 17:5 stuff 'winds' into place? See Jude 12. It is still recorded there in the heavenly RECORD BOOKS ACCURATELY, AND WILL FIND THEIR END IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Does one understand that the choice was Cain's to make as seen in Gen. 4:7?? All one needs to do is submit %100 to the Holy Spirits Leading Rom. 8:14 to escape the lake of fire. It is beyond me why any person would fight against the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment as seen in all of these 'winds' of doctrine put forth, simply because they hate to be a 7th Day Sabbath Covenant keeper? As it started, so will it end! A Free choice of a professed 'FAITHS FINISHED ENDING' in a non/acceptable 'fruit' offering, of a sun day of worship, instead of a Commanded COMMANDMENT FROM GOD. "FEAR GOD AND KEEP [HIS COMMANDMENTS FOR THIS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN]" (mankind!!)
---Elijah

 

[lecoop]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!----------

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years. See Jer. 4:23-27 for the FULL PICTURE OF THE SINNER'S DESOLATION OF GOD!!

---Elijah

Elijah, I am sure you are mistaken; Christ comes for the rapture ("living righteous" and dead in Christ) about 7 years BEFORE He comes in glory, where every eye will see Him. One verse says his feet will touch down, and he will come back just as they saw Him go; another verse shows Him coming on a white horse; yet another verse says we meet Him in the air. God is not confused: they are two SEPARATE comings; first for the church, then for judgment 7 years later.

You forgot the sheep and goat judgment, that allows the righteous to enter into the millennial kingdom. If His glory kills all the unrighteous, then there are NO GOATS.

Neither are you correct about no humans on the earth: some that survive the 7 years will go RIGHT ON LIVING in the Millennial reign of Christ on earth - - or did you forget about that?

If you are going to post on a public forum, PLEASE study these things out first, and get it right. Someone might actually believe what you have written.

Coop

 

[Elijah674]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!----------

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years. See Jer. 4:23-27 for the FULL PICTURE OF THE SINNER'S DESOLATION OF GOD!!

---Elijah

Elijah, I am sure you are mistaken; Christ comes for the rapture ("living righteous" and dead in Christ) about 7 years BEFORE He comes in glory, where every eye will see Him. One verse says his feet will touch down, and he will come back just as they saw Him go; another verse shows Him coming on a white horse; yet another verse says we meet Him in the air. God is not confused: they are two SEPARATE comings; first for the church, then for judgment 7 years later.

You forgot the sheep and goat judgment, that allows the righteous to enter into the millennial kingdom. If His glory kills all the unrighteous, then there are NO GOATS.

Neither are you correct about no humans on the earth: some that survive the 7 years will go RIGHT ON LIVING in the Millennial reign of Christ on earth - - or did you forget about that?

If you are going to post on a public forum, PLEASE study these things out first, and get it right. Someone might actually believe what you have written.

Coop

Could 'i' be wrong? ;) Surely! But the Word of God is NOT. And They, ALL THREE lay it out CLEARLY in just Jer. 4:23-27's few short verses! Also DOCUMENTED in ECCL. 3:15 that there is NOTHING NEW! And They even DOUBLE DOCUMENTED [[TRUTH]] as seen in Gen. 41:32. And ALL OF THIS IS FROM A GOD JESUS THAT IS THE SAME FOR ETERNITY! Heb. 8-9 with a WARNING, huh?

So, old Elijah just thinks that it is your stuff that 'i' will junk!

And FORUM: If you would like, I will post up Jer. 4:22-27 & walk anyone through it verse by verse?