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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

rogerg said:
Only the disobedient are saved
Click to expand...
By their disobedience? In other words, according to you, God saves them because they are disobedient? If so, that is the strangest interpretation I have ever heard.

Here is just some verses that disputes that claim...

"The Lord’s curse is on the household of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous." Proverbs 3:33
"Blessings are on the head of the righteous, but the speech of the wicked conceals violence." Proverbs 10:6
"The reward that the righteous receive is life; the recompense that the wicked receive is judgment." Proverbs 10:16
"What the wicked fears will come on him; what the righteous desire will be granted." Proverbs 10:24
"When the storm passes through, the wicked are swept away, but the righteous are an everlasting foundation." Proverbs 10:25
"The righteousness of the blameless will make their way smooth, but the wicked will fall through their own wickedness." Proverbs 11:5
"True righteousness leads to life, but the one who pursues evil pursues it to his own death." Proverbs 11:17

... and many more.

QED
 
Fastfredy0 said:
It a catch phrase those that save themselves use to distance themselves from having to do something to be saved as that would be a work which would contradict scripture.
Basically, it is a contradiction in the final analysis.

Premise 1: We are not saved by works (works is a mental of physical effort to achieve a purpose) 2 Timothy 1:9; many others
Premise 2: I am the cause (self-determination, free will) of believing. Believing what: that for the only time among billions of people one person raised himself from the dead and that can cause me to go to heaven (work: mental effort to achieve purpose/salvation)
Conclusion: One premise must be wrong, so I will hide the contradiction by the motto: Salvation is a gift and I don't have to do anything to get it but accept it and we won't delve into the necessity of premise 2 as then we have a contradiction and I would have to rewrite a major portion of my doctrine.

"I have faith that Jesus created the conditions by which I could save myself" Arminian author unknown.
Click to expand...
FF

If faith comes by HEARING....

then we are not DEAD.

If we can perceive the existence of God so that we will be without excuse at judgment time....

then we are not DEAD.

Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

We were dead IN OUR SINS....spiritually...
NOT dead in our SENSES and in our MIND.

God told Adam he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.
Adam ate the forbidden fruit.
Did he die?
Yes.
Spiritually.

Death means separation from God.

We are alive enough to HEAR the Word...
To see God's miracles...
To perceive His existence...
and to freely choose to follow Him.

Unfortunately, you don't believe in free will.
This distorts the entire N.T. for you.
 
jaybo said:
By their disobedience? In other words, according to you, God saves them because they are disobedient? If so, that is the strangest interpretation I have ever heard.

Here is just some verses that disputes that claim...

"The Lord’s curse is on the household of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous." Proverbs 3:33
"Blessings are on the head of the righteous, but the speech of the wicked conceals violence." Proverbs 10:6
"The reward that the righteous receive is life; the recompense that the wicked receive is judgment." Proverbs 10:16
"What the wicked fears will come on him; what the righteous desire will be granted." Proverbs 10:24
"When the storm passes through, the wicked are swept away, but the righteous are an everlasting foundation." Proverbs 10:25
"The righteousness of the blameless will make their way smooth, but the wicked will fall through their own wickedness." Proverbs 11:5
"True righteousness leads to life, but the one who pursues evil pursues it to his own death." Proverbs 11:17

... and many more.

QED
Click to expand...
No Jaybo....
rogerg is unable to answer the question...
so he walked around it.

Only the disobedient are saved....
we were all disobedient at one time.

It's a trick answer because the calvinists do not have the truth that the N.T. teaches.
 
jaybo said:
By their disobedience? In other words, according to you, God saves them because they are disobedient? If so, that is the strangest interpretation I have ever heard.
Click to expand...
Those who become saved are saved for only one reason, because God chose to save them. How obedient do you think Saul was before he was saved?
 
rogerg said:
Don't know what you're referring to. Repost the original
Click to expand...
Post 409:


Episcopius said:
Oh, brother. One of the "there is no free will" proponents.

You say that OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL whether you know it or not.
Click to expand...


rogerg said:
Didn't say that of my own free will I didn't think it up. I believe I quoted the Bible, didn't I ? If you disagree with it, you're disagreeing with the Bible


Roger,
You're stating that you DID NOT state your reply of your own free will.
This is because you do not believe in your own free will.
You said you were quoting the bible.

WHICH BIBLE VERSE STATES WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL?

Easy....
Just answer WHERE in the bible does it state we do not have free will....
 
rogerg said:
Those who become saved are saved for only one reason, because God chose to save them. How obedient do you think Saul was before he was saved?
Click to expand...
a) Your two sentences aren't logically connected.
b) In case you're not aware, God is sovereign. His actions are not determined by what people do or don't do.
 
jaybo said:
a) Your two sentences aren't logically connected.
b) In case you're not aware, God is sovereign. His actions are not determined by what people do or don't do.
Click to expand...
Huh? Isn't that what I said? Those saved are saved for only one reason, because God chose to save them.
What's not "logically connected" about them, whatever that means?
 
rogerg said:
Those who become saved are saved for only one reason, because God chose to save them. How obedient do you think Saul was before he was saved?
Click to expand...
How many Saul's do YOU know Roger?
I believe there was only one person that was saved in that manner.

And, again, please state verses that support your idea that God chooses who will be saved
based on NOTHING AT ALL.....

You can't because it's unbiblical doctrine.
 
rogerg said:
Huh? Isn't that what I said? Those saved are saved for only one reason, because God chose to save them.
What's not "logically connected" about them, whatever that means?
Click to expand...
You said "How obedient do you think Saul was before he was saved?" That is referring to the behavior of a person before they're saved. What does that have to do with God's sovereignty?
 
jaybo said:
You said "How obedient do you think Saul was before he was saved?" That is referring to the behavior of a person before they're saved. What does that have to do with God's sovereignty?
Click to expand...
It has to do with the fact that Saul wasn't obedient in the slightest before he was saved - his purpose was to imprison and kill Christians right up to the instant he was saved by God. So, it demonstrates God's sovereignty in the choice, and that his obedience wasn't a factor in it
 
rogerg said:
It has to do with the fact that Saul wasn't obedient in the slightest before he was saved - his purpose was to imprison and kill Christians right up to the instant he was saved by God. So, it demonstrates God's sovereignty in the choice, and that his obedience wasn't a factor in it
Click to expand...
Then why did you write, "Only the disobedient are saved"? That conflicts with your writing that "his obedience wasn't a factor".
 
rogerg, I'm not going to continue to discuss this matter with you. I don't care one way or the other about why you think people are saved.
 
rogerg said:
Only the disobedient are saved
Click to expand...


Thank you for your answer, even though it is against the teaching of Christ.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


This doctrine you are promoting in our community is called by Paul "the lie".


This comes from the garden of Eden; directly from Satan.


Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Genesis 3:4

Go ahead and disobey God, you will not surely die.

Paul says it this way --

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12


Jesus Christ is the Truth. Every word that comes out of His mouth is the Truth.

His Gospel
His Commandments
His Doctrine

Disobey any of these 3 and you will not see eternal salvation.



JLB
 
rogerg said:
Enlighten me as to what lie I'm propagating
Click to expand...

I did.

Here it is again. It’s called THE LIE.

This doctrine you are promoting in our community is called by Paul "the lie".


This comes from the garden of Eden; directly from Satan.


Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Genesis 3:4


Here it s in a nutshell —

  • Go ahead and disobey God, you will not surely die.

Paul says it this way --

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12


THE LIE says you can live in disobedience to God but not die, perish, suffer eternal damnation.





JLB
 
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