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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

rogerg said:
It has to do with the fact that Saul wasn't obedient in the slightest before he was saved - his purpose was to imprison and kill Christians right up to the instant he was saved by God. So, it demonstrates God's sovereignty in the choice, and that his obedience wasn't a factor in it
Click to expand...
No one's obedience is a factor in salvation.

And because God is sovereign does not mean He chose the saved.
It only means that He is sovereign.



Definition of sovereign​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty
b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere
c: an acknowledged leader : ARBITER
2: any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom


Definition of sovereign (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: superlative in quality
b: of the most exalted kind : SUPREMEsovereign virtue
c: having generalized curative powersa sovereign remedy
d: of an unqualified nature : UNMITIGATEDsovereign contempt
e: having undisputed ascendancy : PARAMOUNT
2a: possessed of supreme powera sovereign ruler

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dic...ssing or,c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
 
rogerg said:
Everyone is disobedient before becoming saved
Click to expand...

Of course.


Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved. Those who disobey the Gospel will suffer everlasting destruction in the fires of hell.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8





JLB
 
JLB said:
THE LIE says you can live in disobedience to God but not die, perish, suffer eternal damnation.
Click to expand...
Is that what I said? What I said was that everyone is in disobedience UNTIL they become saved. You think someone is saved by their obedience - meaning being obedient in and of themselves for salvation? It's okay, no need to reply, I already know what you believe
 
wondering said:
No one's obedience is a factor in salvation.
Click to expand...

Our obedience has everything to do with our salvation.

EVERYTHING.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

We must obey the Gospel command REPENT, in order to be saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Believing the Gospel without repenting, means you are still obeying Satan as your lord.


REPENT means turn to God in submission to Him as Lord. If we are called to “turn to God” then we are by default, called to turn away from Satan as your lord.


The way we obey the Gospel command repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Ill bet I said this 1000 times in this Forum and given the scriptures that teach this very thing.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.

That’s why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


  • the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The commandment of our God to all nations, to all the word, is
REPENT.


REPENT is the most amazing word in the Bible and is how love is expressed by God to a fallen, depraved world.


Repent (turn to God) is God’s call to his enemies, you and me, while we are still serving Satan, to turn away from him and turn to Jesus Christ as Lord to become His sons; joint heirs with Christ.


Confessing Jesus as Lord is our eternal commitment to Him to be His children, to obey Him as Lord, and is how we obey the Gospel.



JLB
 
rogerg said:
Is that what I said? What I said was that everyone is in disobedience UNTIL they become saved.
Click to expand...
Here was my question:

Post number 440

Do you believe a person can be saved by his disobedience?


Here is your answer: post 441

Only the disobedient are saved
Click to expand...

The disobedient go to hell, with the devil and his angels.

The obedient go to be with Christ for eternity.



JLB
 
JLB said:
Our obedience has everything to do with our salvation.

EVERYTHING.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

We must obey the Gospel command REPENT, in order to be saved.
Click to expand...
In this we disagree. Doing that would be a work and we can't be saved by our works. Jesus Christ alone is the Savior, not ourselves
 
wondering said:
No one's obedience is a factor in salvation.

And because God is sovereign does not mean He chose the saved.
It only means that He is sovereign.



Definition of sovereign​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty
b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere
c: an acknowledged leader : ARBITER
2: any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom


Definition of sovereign (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: superlative in quality
b: of the most exalted kind : SUPREMEsovereign virtue
c: having generalized curative powersa sovereign remedy
d: of an unqualified nature : UNMITIGATEDsovereign contempt
e: having undisputed ascendancy : PARAMOUNT
2a: possessed of supreme powera sovereign ruler

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sovereign#:~:text=1a : one possessing or,c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
Click to expand...
First, the Bible defines its own words and terms being its own dictionary - nothing outside of itself is needed for it to be complete - look at 2 Titus 3:16 and 17. Second, did I use that word? If I did, it was only in reply.
This means He chose certain ones for salvation:

[Eph 1:1-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
jaybo said:
"Only the disobedient are saved"?
Click to expand...
Agrees with rogerg ... only the disobedient can be saved.

Premise 1: everyone without exception is disobedient
Premise 2: everyone without exception not obedient (perfectly)
Premise 3: Some people are saved
Conclusion: only the disobedient can be saved.

This is not rocket science.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Agrees with rogerg ... only the disobedient can be saved.

Premise 1: everyone without exception is disobedient
Premise 2: everyone without exception not obedient (perfectly)
Premise 3: Some people are saved
Conclusion: only the disobedient can be saved.

This is not rocket science.
Click to expand...

Why did you fail to see the question mark at the end of my post? I repeat my post...

"Only the disobedient are saved"?

That is a question! I am not agreeing with rogerg!

This is not rocket science!
 
JLB said:
Our obedience has everything to do with our salvation.

EVERYTHING.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

We must obey the Gospel command REPENT, in order to be saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Believing the Gospel without repenting, means you are still obeying Satan as your lord.


REPENT means turn to God in submission to Him as Lord. If we are called to “turn to God” then we are by default, called to turn away from Satan as your lord.


The way we obey the Gospel command repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Ill bet I said this 1000 times in this Forum and given the scriptures that teach this very thing.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.

That’s why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


  • the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The commandment of our God to all nations, to all the word, is
REPENT.


REPENT is the most amazing word in the Bible and is how love is expressed by God to a fallen, depraved world.


Repent (turn to God) is God’s call to his enemies, you and me, while we are still serving Satan, to turn away from him and turn to Jesus Christ as Lord to become His sons; joint heirs with Christ.


Confessing Jesus as Lord is our eternal commitment to Him to be His children, to obey Him as Lord, and is how we obey the Gospel.



JLB
Click to expand...
Thanks for clarifying.

Our obedience does not saves us unless we have faith.
Faith is what saves us...faith in Christ.

We believe-----> We have faith----> We obey ---->

We obey God when we believe His Word.
When persons speak of obedience, they usually mean the commandments,,,
not the obedience to believe the gospel.

It's of no value to obey the commandments without faith.
 
jaybo said:
"Only the disobedient are saved"?
Click to expand...
Agreed ... only the disobedient can be saved.

I'll simplify it again.
Name one person that never disobeyed God that is saved (from His wrath)? If you can do that, I will change my opinion.
 
rogerg said:
In this we disagree. Doing that would be a work and we can't be saved by our works. Jesus Christ alone is the Savior, not ourselves
Click to expand...

Of course Jesus Christ is our Savior.

Again, this teaching that we should not obey the Gospel is not from Christ.


Again, please read what the scriptures actually say about those who do not obey the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17



The question Peter asks?

  • what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Paul plainly answers —

  • These shall be punished with everlasting destruction


rogerg I pray that you turn away from teaching the unbiblical doctrine that you are promoting in this forum.


Only those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


The Lord is merciful to those who humble themselves and come to him to confess there sins to be forgiven and to find grace and strength to live according to righteousness.


Never the less …


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36






JLB
 
rogerg said:
First, the Bible defines its own words and terms being its own dictionary - nothing outside of itself is needed for it to be complete - look at 2 Titus 3:16 and 17. Second, did I use that word? If I did, it was only in reply.
This means He chose certain ones for salvation:
Click to expand...

Can't figure out about 2 Titus 3:16 and 17.
Typo?

rogerg said:
[Eph 1:1-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Click to expand...
Where does verse 1 say God chose anyone?

rogerg said:
2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Click to expand...
Where do verses 2 or 3 say God chose anyone?

rogerg said:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Click to expand...

Where does verse 4 say God chose anyone?
It say God chose us IN CHRIST that we should be HOLY and WITHOUT BLAME.

This states not WHO was chosen....
but HOW the chosen would behave and be judged.

rogerg said:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Click to expand...
Where does verse 5 state God chose anyone?

It states that God predestined us to be adopted as children by Jesus, according to God's will.
This was His plan from the beginning (know Adam would disobey).

Nowhere does it state that God chose anyone for salvation...
Only what those that would become saved would experience.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Agrees with rogerg ... only the disobedient can be saved.

Premise 1: everyone without exception is disobedient
Premise 2: everyone without exception not obedient (perfectly)
Premise 3: Some people are saved
Conclusion: only the disobedient can be saved.

This is not rocket science.
Click to expand...
Premise 1: God gave Adam free will.
Premise 2: Adam passed free will on to all his descendants.
Premise 3: God never abolished free will.
Conclusion: Everyone has free will.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Agreed ... only the disobedient can be saved.

I'll simplify it again.
Name one person that never disobeyed God that is saved (from His wrath)? If you can do that, I will change my opinion.
Click to expand...
uh-oh think you just entered into the "lie" zone with me. Their contention is that one has to be obedient TO BE saved. I disagreed because I believe Christ is the Savior. They seem to think that belief will send me to hell because it's a lie. If I understand your position correctly, guess you just became guilty of it too
 
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