The burden of proof

[Gregg]

Ok so you christians say bible god has to be an invisible spirit who lives in the hearts of all his believers, you also say he intercedes on occasions testing mankind to weed out who is the tare's and the wheat. So in your mind bible god is careful not to reveal his presence or he would screw up his plain of salvation. But then when you are confronted by the burden of proof you are quick to point out the order and design of the universe as absolute proof of bible god.

But may I ask,

What specifics does the bible actually show and demonstrate, that's evident that it is bible god who designed all we see in our known universe.

The title of your thread is interesting . . . the words 'burden' and 'proof;' perhaps two of the most important concepts in the Bible.

1) Jesus was crucified that we may be forgiven of our sins, to bear the burden of our sin.
2) Jesus proved His credentials, that He is God, through His Resurrection from the dead.

Through these two things, Jesus' Crucifixion and Resurrection, God has dealt with our sins themselves and the sin-nature that causes them.

If you want to look into these things in greater detail, just send a private message.

Gregg

 

[Willie T]

An excellent picture, Greg.

 

[Edward]

Yes you can if you do what it says to do.

 

[jasonc]

This has been said before ... you may be the only Bible someone reads...

a wise rabbi side that. those jews don't debate theology but how to apply torah.

 

[Gary]

Yes you can if you do what it says to do.

No, you can't.
.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It just seems this is placing the Bible up as an idol and placing it at the same level as Christ Himself, they are not the same. The Bible is inspired by God, it points us TO Christ, not that it IS Christ.

God does not live in a book.

How does a person have a relationship with a book?

Your right, of course, but the Bible is still the Final Court of Arbitration until the LORD returns.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I read the first page and skimmed the rest, taking notes. What I come back to is that he concept of the burden of proof is that anyone who makes a claim needs to validate it. Its not a hard rule, but a guideline for discussion to better get an understanding.

From the get go the OP made some clams that "Christians" say this or that. The OP should defend this statement with evidence, so the op already hasn't taken on his burden of proof.

Now when it comes to Christianity there are some claims that bare a burden of proof. Christianity is based on the foundation of Old Testament. The Old Testament makes claims about the creation of the Universe, life, and about sin. Those that defend these concepts are put into a situation where they can be asked to provide their burden of proof. For instance a sequence of questions could be; What is Sin, Why is sin bad, What are the punishments of sin the way they are, what is the origin of sin, why are we responsible for our sins, what was the point of the tree of life, how was the world created, how was the universe created, why should I believe this is literal?


Like wise if someone claims that Christianity is false, they would then be in the position of providing a burden of proof. Like I stated earlier this isn't a hard rule and no one is entitle to an answer to the burden of proof unless the person who holds it offered it in exchange for something. The concept of the burden of proof is that its meant to be a way to make conversation and arguments more clear. As is the case with most fallacies and rules for debate.

 

[By Grace]

I knew that bible prophesy would be mentioned, it is the christians ace in the hole.

I can explain why prophecy is one "ace in the hole" at a later time, but another biggie we have are the words that Jesus said about the Bible:

These are the subjects Jesus taught about the integrity of the OT, and by extension the NT:

1.It is Authoritative—Matthew 22:43

2. It is Reliable—Matthew 26:54

3. It is Final—Matthew 4:4, 7, 10

4. It is Sufficient—Luke 16:31

5. It is Indestructible—Matthew 5:17–18

6. It has Unity—Luke 24:27, 44

7. It has Clarity—Luke 24:27

8. It is Historically accurate—Matthew 12:40

9. It is Inerrant—Matthew 22:29; John 3:12; 17:17

10.It is Infallible—John 10:35 [1]
​

So in the previous post, I have given you Scripture from the book of Romans telling you that you (and all of humankind) are a sinner and are needing salvation in order to live eternally.

In this post, I am giving you reasons why you should trust the Bible in what it says in all matters. The basis for being able to say that is because these are the records of Jesus' words. Since he told the Pharisees and others quote plainly that He was the Son of God, and therefore he is Himself God. For that, some wanted to stone Him because they believed that He spoke blasphemy when He said that. So when anyone looks at the words of Jesus in their context, and in their totality, there are only three logical choices to make:

1. Jesus is a liar, and no different than Joseph Smith or Jim Jones or David Koresh or Father Divine.
2. Jesus is a lunatic. That is because the things that Jesus said about Himself being the Son of God are too preposterous to contemplate, and are heard in locked wards with padded cells
3. Jesus is Lord, and everything He says, not one part here, or another part there is true 100% of the time. And if that is the case, what He says MUST be the way things are. AQ sane person has no other real choice than to accept and obey.

After you have read, digested and discussed with me what I said in my previous posts, I will post about an aspect of prophecy, which few people know about. HINT: It involves very large numbers.

9Geisler, N. L., & Brooks, R. M. (1990). When skeptics ask (Page 143). Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

 

[LovethroughDove]

How does a person have a relationship with a book?

Do we have relationships on this website? They are just words to eachother. Why talk to anyone if words don't matter? It is not just a book, it is the living Word.

 

[Jesse]

Do we have relationships on this website? They are just words to eachother. Why talk to anyone if words don't matter? It is not just a book, it is the living Word.

You study the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me so that you may have life."- John 5:39-40

This is exactly the error people do, they put their faith in the Bible, instead of the Living Christ. Christ saved you, not a book. God deems us righteous, not the Bible, Jesus is active and living, the Holy Spirit brings life to our learning and God uses many different avenues to teach us about Him. Our relationship is with Christ. I'm not saying the Bible is not important, it is, but people have placed more value and rely more heavily on the Bible then they do with their relationship with Christ.

I have heard people tell me it's dangerous to follow the Holy Spirit (because it may not really by the Holy Spirit), but that is exactly what Jesus did, it is what all the apostles did, all of the early disciples, they followed Christ - not the Bible, it didn't exist.

The Bible is not God.

 

[jasonc]

You study the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me so that you may have life."- John 5:39-40

This is exactly the error people do, they put their faith in the Bible, instead of the Living Christ. Christ saved you, not a book. God deems us righteous, not the Bible, Jesus is active and living, the Holy Spirit brings life to our learning and God uses many different avenues to teach us about Him. Our relationship is with Christ. I'm not saying the Bible is not important, it is, but people have placed more value and rely more heavily on the Bible then they do with their relationship with Christ.

I have heard people tell me it's dangerous to follow the Holy Spirit (because it may not really by the Holy Spirit), but that is exactly what Jesus did, it is what all the apostles did, all of the early disciples, they followed Christ - not the Bible, it didn't exist.

The Bible is not God.

correction, they had the tanach. remember when Jesus was with them on the way Emmaus that he expounded the law and prophets to the disciples as they thought he didn't know of the death of Jesus and he played ignorant and they said did not our heart burn in us when He spoke those things. orally and the Holy Spirit wasn't on the earth like He is now.

 

[smaller]

You study the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me so that you may have life."- John 5:39-40

This is exactly the error people do, they put their faith in the Bible, instead of the Living Christ. Christ saved you, not a book. God deems us righteous, not the Bible, Jesus is active and living, the Holy Spirit brings life to our learning and God uses many different avenues to teach us about Him. Our relationship is with Christ. I'm not saying the Bible is not important, it is, but people have placed more value and rely more heavily on the Bible then they do with their relationship with Christ.

I have heard people tell me it's dangerous to follow the Holy Spirit (because it may not really by the Holy Spirit), but that is exactly what Jesus did, it is what all the apostles did, all of the early disciples, they followed Christ - not the Bible, it didn't exist.

The Bible is not God.

There are ZERO conflicts existing between God, His Son, His Spirit and His Word as it is written. The Word apart from The Spirit of same is dead letter. That doesn't mean the written Word of God IS dead letter. The dead letter abides in the reader without The Spirit.

 

[Jesse]

There are ZERO conflicts existing between God, His Son, His Spirit and His Word as it is written. The Word apart from The Spirit of same is dead letter. That doesn't mean the written Word of God IS dead letter. The dead letter abides in the reader without The Spirit.

I don't think I've written anything that would disregard this EXCEPT, God wants us to have a relationship with Him, not the Bible. God is not a book.

 

[Jesse]

correction, they had the tanach. remember when Jesus was with them on the way Emmaus that he expounded the law and prophets to the disciples as they thought he didn't know of the death of Jesus and he played ignorant and they said did not our heart burn in us when He spoke those things. orally and the Holy Spirit wasn't on the earth like He is now.

You're right, I do stand corrected. They did read the law because they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them like we do now. The Holy Spirit indwells us for a purpose and that would be so that we follow God through His Holy Spirit.

The Bible is important, but people see it as an idol, LTD said the Bible is Jesus. Jesus is so much more, how can He be contained in a book?

 

[smaller]

I don't think I've written anything that would disregard this EXCEPT, God wants us to have a relationship with Him, not the Bible. God is not a book.

I was merely pointing out that some try to pit the Word against the Spirit. No such conflict exists so it's a phony position/presentation from the start.

 

[Jesse]

I was merely pointing out that some try to pit the Word against the Spirit. No such conflict exists so it's a phony position/presentation from the start.

Oh, I understand what you're saying, I agree, that would not be good. God inspired men to write the Bible, it has taught me a whole bunch about God and His Ways, yet the Bible is still not God, still doesn't save, nor deem my righteous- as others have stated. But it seems you know that already.

 

[smaller]

Oh, I understand what you're saying, I agree, that would not be good. God inspired men to write the Bible, it has taught me a whole bunch about God and His Ways, yet the Bible is still not God, still doesn't save, nor deem my righteous- as others have stated. But it seems you know that already.

And that is the presentation that says there is a difference between God and His Word, when there is not a difference between God, His Word and His Spirit.

One can not divide the Word of God away from God. It's a false basis out of the gate. There is no conflict.

 

[Jesse]

And that is the presentation that says there is a difference between God and His Word, when there is not a difference between God, His Word and His Spirit.

One can not divide the Word of God away from God. It's a false basis out of the gate. There is no conflict.

Jesus is the WORD.

God is not a book.

 

[smaller]

Jesus is the WORD.

God is not a book.

Again, you present God being in some type of conflict with His written Word. Gods Word is no mere book with typeset on paper. It is a recording of His Word and His Word is secure and unchanging. It is the measure we use to align with His Spirit. Without that measure we are left with no measure.

 

[Jesse]

Again, you present God being in some type of conflict with His written Word. Gods Word is no mere book with typeset on paper. It is a recording of His Word and His Word is secure and unchanging. It is the measure we use to align with His Spirit. Without that measure we are left with no measure.

Just to be clear, which tanslation are we discussing?