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The Catholic Church.

wondering said:
The CC IS the church that descended from Peter and the Apostles.
This is plain and simple history and I'm surprised you can't agree with this.

As to being a cult....a cult follows a person, the CC follows Jesus, just like we do.
The Pope is not honored and worshipped at Mass - Jesus is.
Click to expand...
There is no biblical evidence that the CC descended from Peter and the apostles. a) The word "Catholic" appears nowhere in the Bible and b) all Christian denominations originated from Jesus and His disciples, including the all the apostles.
 
wondering said:
The CC IS the church that descended from Peter and the Apostles.
This is plain and simple history and I'm surprised you can't agree with this.

As to being a cult....a cult follows a person, the CC follows Jesus, just like we do.
The Pope is not honored and worshipped at Mass - Jesus is.
Click to expand...

All of Christendom descended from Jesus first, then Peter and the other apostles, not just the Catholic denomination. The CC is just one denomination of many. It is not the church. It is both tragic and arrogant to believe that just one denomination is the true church.

1 Corinthians 1:12, "What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

1 Corinthians 3:3-5, "You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task." (my emphasis of course)
 
jaybo said:
All of Christendom descended from Jesus first, then Peter and the other apostles, not just the Catholic denomination. The CC is just one denomination of many. It is not the church. It is both tragic and arrogant to believe that just one denomination is the true church.

1 Corinthians 1:12, "What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

1 Corinthians 3:3-5, "You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task." (my emphasis of course
Click to expand...
The Catholic "denomination" was the first church. I never said it is THE church or the TRUE church.
It can be traced all the way back to Peter.
Protestant denominations cannot be traced back to Peter.

Since you refuse to do any homework...my following post will have some family trees for you to check out.

As to quarreling...it's not me quarreling.
I find that the CC is much disliked and I'm trying to understand why since what many post is not even what the CC teaches.
(and they refuse to discuss this).

Do we dislike just as much the
Word of Faith Movement? Which makes God out to be Santa Clause and teaches that everything sinful is a demonic spirit which needs to be exorcised....
Easy Believism/Cheap Grace churches.....Which teach that no matter what we can never lose our salvation...putting souls in danger due to incorrect doctrine.
Legalistic churches..... that teach we lose our salvation if we sin.....not a life of sin, but if we SIN, this is not biblical either.

When I'm with my Catholic friends, I have corrected them on what Protestants believe.
When I'm with Protestant friends here on the net, I feel it justified to correct what the believe, incorrectly, about the Catholic Church.

BTW...your verse regards man...we are not to follow man, but God and only God and Jesus represents that God in a visible way.
 
wondering said:
The Catholic "denomination" was the first church. I never said it is THE church or the TRUE church.
It can be traced all the way back to Peter.
Protestant denominations cannot be traced back to Peter.

Since you refuse to do any homework...my following post will have some family trees for you to check out.

As to quarreling...it's not me quarreling.
I find that the CC is much disliked and I'm trying to understand why since what many post is not even what the CC teaches.
(and they refuse to discuss this).

Do we dislike just as much the
Word of Faith Movement? Which makes God out to be Santa Clause and teaches that everything sinful is a demonic spirit which needs to be exorcised....
Easy Believism/Cheap Grace churches.....Which teach that no matter what we can never lose our salvation...putting souls in danger due to incorrect doctrine.
Legalistic churches..... that teach we lose our salvation if we sin.....not a life of sin, but if we SIN, this is not biblical either.

When I'm with my Catholic friends, I have corrected them on what Protestants believe.
When I'm with Protestant friends here on the net, I feel it justified to correct what the believe, incorrectly, about the Catholic Church.

BTW...your verse regards man...we are not to follow man, but God and only God and Jesus represents that God in a visible way.
Click to expand...
Protestant denominations have the same origin as the Catholic denomination: Jesus Christ and the apostles. Again, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the Bible. All of Christendom is a royal priesthood and every part of the body is as important as every other part.

I have no idea why you're mentioning the Word of Faith Movement or Easy Believism/Cheap Grace churches in this discussion; what's your point?

BTW, my quote is from Paul's epistle, known as part of the Bible. He is pointing out that following the teachings of certain men is very different from following Christ. IMHO that applies to the teachings of the RCC, especially the extra-Biblical teachings of popes. Apparently you agree, since you wrote "we are not to follow man, but God and only God and Jesus represents that God in a visible way."

I am very uncomfortable with all the extra stuff that the RCC has added to the teachings of Scripture. Why can't Catholics accept the teachings and practices of the Bible without adding on all kinds of extra (non-Biblical) stuff?

Sola scriptura!
 
wondering said:
Protestant denominations cannot be traced back to Peter.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this statement. I certainly believe the Lutheran denomination can trace its roots back to Peter. It would, of course, follow the same path prior to the reformation.
 
jaybo said:
I am very uncomfortable with all the extra stuff that the RCC has added to the teachings of Scripture. Why can't Catholics accept the teachings and practices of the Bible without adding on all kinds of extra (non-Biblical) stuff?

Sola scriptura!
Click to expand...
Protestant denominations are far from guiltless in this regard. I see things in my own church that I question.
 
jaybo said:
Protestant denominations have the same origin as the Catholic denomination: Jesus Christ and the apostles. Again, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the Bible. All of Christendom is a royal priesthood and every part of the body is as important as every other part.

I have no idea why you're mentioning the Word of Faith Movement or Easy Believism/Cheap Grace churches in this discussion; what's your point?

BTW, my quote is from Paul's epistle, known as part of the Bible. He is pointing out that following the teachings of certain men is very different from following Christ. IMHO that applies to the teachings of the RCC, especially the extra-Biblical teachings of popes. Apparently you agree, since you wrote "we are not to follow man, but God and only God and Jesus represents that God in a visible way."

I am very uncomfortable with all the extra stuff that the RCC has added to the teachings of Scripture. Why can't Catholics accept the teachings and practices of the Bible without adding on all kinds of extra (non-Biblical) stuff?

Sola scriptura!
Click to expand...
WHICH extra stuff?
Be specific...
or do you just want to condemn?
 
WIP said:
I don't agree with this statement. I certainly believe the Lutheran denomination can trace its roots back to Peter. It would, of course, follow the same path prior to the reformation.
Click to expand...
Are you saying in the same way that the Orthodox church goes back to the beginning?
I've never considered this....
Does the Lutheran church follow what was practiced in the original church?
(I don't know enough about the Lutheran church).
 
jaybo said:
I'm not "intersted" in these (unreadable) graphs. I am interested in the Trinity and the Word of God.
Click to expand...
Very good.
But then stop criticizing what you do not know
and insisting that the CC is not the original church when it clearly is.
 
wondering said:
The Catholic "denomination" was the first church. I never said it is THE church or the TRUE church.
It can be traced all the way back to Peter.
Protestant denominations cannot be traced back to Peter.

Since you refuse to do any homework...my following post will have some family trees for you to check out.

As to quarreling...it's not me quarreling.
I find that the CC is much disliked and I'm trying to understand why since what many post is not even what the CC teaches.
(and they refuse to discuss this).

Do we dislike just as much the
Word of Faith Movement? Which makes God out to be Santa Clause and teaches that everything sinful is a demonic spirit which needs to be exorcised....
Easy Believism/Cheap Grace churches.....Which teach that no matter what we can never lose our salvation...putting souls in danger due to incorrect doctrine.
Legalistic churches..... that teach we lose our salvation if we sin.....not a life of sin, but if we SIN, this is not biblical either.

When I'm with my Catholic friends, I have corrected them on what Protestants believe.
When I'm with Protestant friends here on the net, I feel it justified to correct what the believe, incorrectly, about the Catholic Church.

BTW...your verse regards man...we are not to follow man, but God and only God and Jesus represents that God in a visible way.
Click to expand...
"Protestant denominations cannot be traced back to Peter" isn't true. All Christendom can (and should) be traced back to Jesus Christ and the people He appointed: the original apostles and Paul. Why do Catholics persist in claims that have zero basis?

Catholicism is just a denomination, nothing more. As I have repeatedly said there is no mention of Catholicism anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere in Scripture.
 
wondering said:
Are you saying in the same way that the Orthodox church goes back to the beginning?
I've never considered this....
Does the Lutheran church follow what was practiced in the original church?
(I don't know enough about the Lutheran church).
Click to expand...
Does any church today follow what was practiced in the original church?

After leaving the Catholic church and then eventually choosing to become a member of a Lutheran church my decision was made easier because there are many similarities in both worship, church calendar, and what is taught. There are differences of course but even today's Catholic church differs from the original church.
 
wondering said:
Very good.
But then stop criticizing what you do not know
and insisting that the CC is not the original church when it clearly is.
Click to expand...
In your opinion... All Christendom has its origins in Jesus Christ and those He selected to further the Gospel. That is what I know! Again (and again and again...) nowhere in the Bible does it mention the Catholic denomination!
 
WIP said:
I don't agree with this statement. I certainly believe the Lutheran denomination can trace its roots back to Peter. It would, of course, follow the same path prior to the reformation.
Click to expand...
P.S.
Yes...because of Martin Luther.
Interesting point....
 
WIP said:
Does any church today follow what was practiced in the original church?

After leaving the Catholic church and then eventually choosing to become a member of a Lutheran church my decision was made easier because there are many similarities in both worship, church calendar, and what is taught. There are differences of course but even today's Catholic church differs from the original church.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
I meant what does the Lutheran church teach about the Eucharist?
Luther believed in transubstantiation, but I doubt they believe that.
Maybe the real presence?
Do they allow visitors to receive communion? Is it every week?

What about Baptism?
Do babies get baptized?

I won't mention confession because it didn't exist in this form in the original CC either.

Do they teach sanctification?
 
WIP said:
Does any church today follow what was practiced in the original church?

After leaving the Catholic church and then eventually choosing to become a member of a Lutheran church my decision was made easier because there are many similarities in both worship, church calendar, and what is taught. There are differences of course but even today's Catholic church differs from the original church.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean about the worship...I used to miss some of the formality when I attended a Nazarene church.
OTOH,,,they taught a lot at each service and the CC refuses to do this. (I've spoken to a few priests about this and there's just no budge).
 
jaybo said:
In your opinion... All Christendom has its origins in Jesus Christ and those He selected to further the Gospel. That is what I know! Again (and again and again...) nowhere in the Bible does it mention the Catholic denomination!
Click to expand...
Who said it did?

You're talking about spiritual matters...of course all Christendom has its origins in Jesus Christ, that's why it's called Christianity.

I'm talking about history - which you refuse to accept.
(which is your prerogative, of course).

Do you believe the holocaust happened?
Do you believe there was a Roman Empire?
It's THE SAME...it's history.

If you wanted to, you could also learn why the CC has a Pope...
but you won't be interested in that either, but you will have to stop criticizing it - to me, at least.
 
wondering said:
Persons that are attending Mass and do not believe they will be consuming the body and blood of Christ should not be receiving communion with those that do.
Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD....The CC takes this to be literal...it is their right to do so, just as it is the right of other churches to think of communion as a remembrance only.

This does not make a church a fraud.
If this is the case, every church is a fraud because every church (denomination) has its own teaching.



The church is offering the Eucharist to the participants.
It's a meal....prepared on a table, given to the people, just like Jesus offered the bread and wine to His Apostles at the Last Supper.


Either of the two elements, bread or wine, contain BOTH elements.
Persons are not happy to drink from the cup anymore.
I do believe some solution should be sought.
But it is not the intent of the church to withhold the wine, as you put it.



This is a misconception of Protestantism and I've never understood why.
It is the ONE sacrifice of Jesus that is offered...He is not offered over and over again as with blood in the crucifixion.
Try asking any priest what HE believes....
It is a re-presentation...as if we were at the foot of the cross.

CCC 1366
The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:


[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.




Mary represents quite a problem for non-Catholics...




The CC agrees.



The truth is proclaimed at every Mass.
Love Jesus
Love your neighbor

What do you think is said that draws persons away from the gospel?



The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Pope is a representative of God.
The Holy Spirit is not a respresentative...but IS GOD.


Agreed on the last sentence.
Many churches will be exposed as wood, hay and stubble....
but THEY will not be burned up....
I won't get into 1 Corinthians 3,,,,but the work will be burned...not the persons.
Click to expand...
The original Eucharist was the sharing of the bread from one broken loaf where each member took his share, and they drank from the one cup. It was set as a memorial of the death of Christ on the Cross where His body was broken and His blood was shed. It also represented the one for all time sacrifice of Jesus when He suffered and died on the cross.

It was never meant to be a continual sacrifice every time the Mass was performed. It was not meant to be dispensed by a priest where the wafer could not be handled by the person who receives it. Also, the cup was not to be exclusively consumed by the priest. That is the difference between how the original Eucharist was described in the Gospel of John and how it is performed in the Mass. Therefore the Eucharist of the Mass is nothing like what Jesus intended and is a non-Biblical ritual that has very little meaning to what Jesus did on the Cross for us.
 
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