The Catholic Church.

[Fastfredy0]

Sorry, those websites don't get to decide, either. Only the Church gets to decide what they teach. And as you learned, the Church doesn't teach that Protestants are going to hell. In fact, they teach that Protestants are our brothers in God.

I hope your right.

 

[jaybo]

The truth is what the Church teaches. The Catechism is the authority on this. And as you see, it doesn't teach what some non-Catholics would want it to teach. I don't doubt that there are Catholics out there, who would also like it that way. But they don't get to decide, either.

"The truth is what the Church teaches"? Of course, you mean the Catholic church, which is by no means "the Church". "The Catechism is the authority on this" to Catholics only. You do realize that there are other denominations, don't you?

 

[Barbarian]

(disagreement on what the Church teaches)

Maybe my experts are wrong, maybe your experts are wrong. (What is Truth)

The truth is what the Church teaches. The Catechism is the authority on this. And as you see, it doesn't teach what some non-Catholics would want it to teach. I don't doubt that there are Catholics out there, who would also like it that way. But they don't get to decide, either.

"The truth is what the Church teaches"?

Yes. As you see, the truth as to what the Church teaches, is what's actually in the Catechism, not what some website says it is.

Of course, you mean the Catholic church, which is by no means "the Church".

Actually, it's just the first Church, which split into an Eastern and Western Church. Everything else then departed from those.
Technically, the Biblical meaning of "Church" was a congregation under the leadership of an apostle or one designated by him or a successor.

The point is, the Catechism is the authority on what the Church teaches.

"The Catechism is the authority on this" to Catholics only.

No, it's the only authority on what the Church teaches.

 

[Barbarian]

I hope your right.

It's there in the definitive teaching of the Church. No way to deny it.

 

[PaulChristensen]

The Catholics claim that their denomination was the first and therefore the "pure" church. Supposedly other denominations are corrupt because they don't agree with the Catholic teachings and/or the Pope.

Apparently they haven't read Revelation 2-3 which has scathing criticisms of the various churches. Not only were they separate but they were warned to change their corrupt ways or else their "lampstand(s)" would be removed.

Revelation 2:4, "But I have this against you: You have departed from your first love! Therefore, remember from what high state you have fallen and repent! Do the deeds you did at the first; if not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place—that is, if you do not repent."

Revelation 2:11, "The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will in no way be harmed by the second death."

Revelation 2:16, "Therefore, repent! If not, I will come against you quickly and make war against those people with the sword of my mouth. The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Revelation 2:20-23, " But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and by her teaching deceives my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. Look! I am throwing her onto a bed of violent illness, and those who commit adultery with her into terrible suffering, unless they repent of her deeds. Furthermore, I will strike her followers with a deadly disease, and then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches minds and hearts. I will repay each one of you what your deeds deserve."

Revelation 3:1-3, "This is the solemn pronouncement of the one who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a reputation that you are alive, but in reality you are dead. Wake up then, and strengthen what remains that was about to die, because I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Therefore, remember what you received and heard, and obey it, and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come against you.

Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth! Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired great wealth, and need nothing,” but do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked..."

The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches. If the Catholics claim to be the original denomination then they have to accept the Lord's message to the churches is directed at them.

The Catholic Church is a fraud. It has corrupted the Lord's Supper, which is to be shared by all believers in that the ordinary member cannot take his share of the bread. The priest puts the wafer in the person's mouth. Also the priest withholds the wine from the members, while Jesus said that we all drink of it. Also, the Mass is a corruption because it teaches that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again, while the Scripture says that He was sacrificed once and for all when he suffered and died on the Cross. Also, the CC has elevated Mary to be the Queen of Heaven, which is nothing more than a pagan idol, while the real Mary is her spirit in Paradise awaiting, along with all other believers, for the resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

The true church is invisible, made up of all those genuinely converted to Christ. With everything that is true from the Spirit of God, there is the counterfeit which is designed to deceive people and draw them away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ. The Pope has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit, Who is the true vicar of Christ.

In reality when Jesus comes again, the whole of the CC will be exposed as wood, hay, and stubble, and will be burned up, and those who put their trust in it rather than in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, will perish along with it.

 

[PaulChristensen]

(disagreement on what the Church teaches)


The truth is what the Church teaches. The Catechism is the authority on this. And as you see, it doesn't teach what some non-Catholics would want it to teach. I don't doubt that there are Catholics out there, who would also like it that way. But they don't get to decide, either.

Yes. As you see, the truth as to what the Church teaches, is what's actually in the Catechism, not what some website says it is.

Actually, it's just the first Church, which split into an Eastern and Western Church. Everything else then departed from those.
Technically, the Biblical meaning of "Church" was a congregation under the leadership of an apostle or one designated by him or a successor.

The point is, the Catechism is the authority on what the Church teaches.

No, it's the only authority on what the Church teaches.

The CC is wood hay and stubble and won't survive the consuming fire of the Lord when He comes again.

 

[Barbarian]

The CC is wood hay and stubble and won't survive the consuming fire of the Lord when He comes again.

Fire is the trademark of one who would be Lord. Better be sure you've got the right one. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.

Those who try to push people away from God only succeed in distancing themselves from God. Before it's too late, think it over.

And I suppose that this is why the management previously banned discussions on the Catholic Church. Time to shut this off.

 

[GodsGrace]

Fire is the trademark of one who would be Lord. Better be sure you've got the right one. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.

Those who try to push people away from God only succeed in distancing themselves from God. Before it's too late, think it over.

And I suppose that this is why the management previously banned discussions on the Catholic Church. Time to shut this off.

We've been having a very civil discussion until PaulChristensen happened by.
A person's whose theology I really respect BTW...I'm rather shocked at his hatred of the CC and, yes, if this should continue,
the thread will be closed. Of course.

But first...a reply to Paul C.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Church is a fraud. It has corrupted the Lord's Supper, which is to be shared by all believers in that the ordinary member cannot take his share of the bread.

Persons that are attending Mass and do not believe they will be consuming the body and blood of Christ should not be receiving communion with those that do.
Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD....The CC takes this to be literal...it is their right to do so, just as it is the right of other churches to think of communion as a remembrance only.

This does not make a church a fraud.
If this is the case, every church is a fraud because every church (denomination) has its own teaching.

The priest puts the wafer in the person's mouth.

The church is offering the Eucharist to the participants.
It's a meal....prepared on a table, given to the people, just like Jesus offered the bread and wine to His Apostles at the Last Supper.

Also the priest withholds the wine from the members, while Jesus said that we all drink of it.

Either of the two elements, bread or wine, contain BOTH elements.
Persons are not happy to drink from the cup anymore.
I do believe some solution should be sought.
But it is not the intent of the church to withhold the wine, as you put it.

Also, the Mass is a corruption because it teaches that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again, while the Scripture says that He was sacrificed once and for all when he suffered and died on the Cross.

This is a misconception of Protestantism and I've never understood why.
It is the ONE sacrifice of Jesus that is offered...He is not offered over and over again as with blood in the crucifixion.
Try asking any priest what HE believes....
It is a re-presentation...as if we were at the foot of the cross.

CCC 1366
The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:


[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.

Also, the CC has elevated Mary to be the Queen of Heaven, which is nothing more than a pagan idol, while the real Mary is her spirit in Paradise awaiting, along with all other believers, for the resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

Mary represents quite a problem for non-Catholics...

The true church is invisible, made up of all those genuinely converted to Christ.

The CC agrees.

With everything that is true from the Spirit of God, there is the counterfeit which is designed to deceive people and draw them away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

The truth is proclaimed at every Mass.
Love Jesus
Love your neighbor

What do you think is said that draws persons away from the gospel?

The Pope has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit, Who is the true vicar of Christ.

The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Pope is a representative of God.
The Holy Spirit is not a respresentative...but IS GOD.

In reality when Jesus comes again, the whole of the CC will be exposed as wood, hay, and stubble, and will be burned up, and those who put their trust in it rather than in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, will perish along with it.

Agreed on the last sentence.
Many churches will be exposed as wood, hay and stubble....
but THEY will not be burned up....
I won't get into 1 Corinthians 3,,,,but the work will be burned...not the persons.

 

[jaybo]

(disagreement on what the Church teaches)


The truth is what the Church teaches. The Catechism is the authority on this. And as you see, it doesn't teach what some non-Catholics would want it to teach. I don't doubt that there are Catholics out there, who would also like it that way. But they don't get to decide, either.

Yes. As you see, the truth as to what the Church teaches, is what's actually in the Catechism, not what some website says it is.

Actually, it's just the first Church, which split into an Eastern and Western Church. Everything else then departed from those.
Technically, the Biblical meaning of "Church" was a congregation under the leadership of an apostle or one designated by him or a successor.

The point is, the Catechism is the authority on what the Church teaches.

No, it's the only authority on what the Church teaches.

It's sad that you think that "the Church" is the Catholic church only. That is the basic problem. The words "Catholic" and "catholic" appear nowhere in the Bible.

There is one body of Christ, and the Catholic denomination ain't it.

 

[Barbarian]

We've been having a very civil discussion until PaulChristensen happened by.
A person's whose theology I really respect BTW...I'm rather shocked at his hatred of the CC and, yes, if this should continue,
the thread will be closed. Of course.

But first...a reply to Paul C.

Too much hatred for me. I'll leave it to you. You seem to be more patient than I am.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Too much hatred for me.

Agreed. Some of the posts have gone too far. I compliment you for the way you conducted yourself.

 

[WIP]

Agreed. Some of the posts have gone too far. I compliment you for the way you conducted yourself.

Personally, I think there is too much hatred on both sides. It saddens me how many Protestants have been conditioned to an anti-Catholic position and vise versa and not only just the teachings of the churches but the members personally. In reality, both should be working toward unity in Christ and all come into the fold for that is what God desires.

“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other."
Isaiah 45:22 NKJV

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 NKJV

 

[Fastfredy0]

In reality, both should be working toward unity in Christ and all come into the fold.

You cannot have UNITY between Catholics and Protestants in regard to doctrine. There's a reason the two sides don't congregate. I would NEVER attend a mass as I think it is idolatry. I am strongly anti-catholic when it comes to their doctrine but I respect their right to have a different viewpoint. If a person thinks another improperly represents God, I think they should speak up civilly/respectably.

I think Walpole and Barbarian conduct themselves well. It's always a 'tough room' for the minority opinion.

Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed.

 

[PaulChristensen]

We've been having a very civil discussion until PaulChristensen happened by.
A person's whose theology I really respect BTW...I'm rather shocked at his hatred of the CC and, yes, if this should continue,
the thread will be closed. Of course.

But first...a reply to Paul C.

All we have to do is read the Bible to see the truth. So, to determine whether the CC is based on truth is to compare the theology, traditions and practices of it with what is clearly written in the New Testament. If holding to what the New Testament says in preference to what the traditions of a church teaches is being unpleasant, then that is a straight-out case, and there it is!

 

[PaulChristensen]

You cannot have UNITY between Catholics and Protestants in regard to doctrine. There's a reason the two sides don't congregate. I would NEVER attend a mass as I think it is idolatry. I am strongly anti-catholic when it comes to their doctrine but I respect their right to have a different viewpoint. If a person thinks another improperly represents God, I think they should speak up civilly/respectably.

I think Walpole and Barbarian conduct themselves well. It's always a 'tough room' for the minority opinion.

Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed.

I'm not against Roman Catholics. My wife is one, and so is her family. What I am actually against is a church that has traditions and styles of worship that are contrary to the New Testament. You are correct, two cannot walk together if they are not in unity. The problem is that the CC is not in unity with the New Testament, far from it. So, I would be a hypocrite if I pretended that the CC was anything other than a cult which has presented itself to the world as the true Christian church descended from Peter and the Apostles.

 

[GodsGrace]

All we have to do is read the Bible to see the truth. So, to determine whether the CC is based on truth is to compare the theology, traditions and practices of it with what is clearly written in the New Testament. If holding to what the New Testament says in preference to what the traditions of a church teaches is being unpleasant, then that is a straight-out case, and there it is!

You said the CC is a fraud because it corrupted the Lord's Supper.
How?
Jesus said This Is My Body, This Is My Blood....
Jesus said in John 6:53 that we are to eat the flesh of the Son of Man.
The word eat in this verse means to chew....

I'm Protestant,,,but how is the above being fraudulent...?
It's just interpreting that verse (and others) they way they understand it.
All denominations do this. Some believe in the Real Presence, some believe it's only a memorial....


You said the priest puts the wafer in the person's mouth.
How is this fraudulent?
The church is offering the bread to each person individually and personally.
It is no longer possible to share a real meal - which is what was done at the beginning, with bread and wine.

You stated that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again.
This is false and you have no reason to believe this..it is simply not true.

You said the church deceives persons and draws them away from the gospel.
How?

Then you stated that the Pope has usurped the position of the Holy Spirit.

All these statements are stated by you in post no. 429 where my replies are also posted.

It's very nice that you like Catholics but dislike the Catholic Church.
But it would also be nice if you explained why.

I dislike the reformed church but I could give you a list of reasons why.

I just don't think it's right to make accusations and not be able to back them up OR back them up with incorrect information.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not against Roman Catholics. My wife is one, and so is her family. What I am actually against is a church that has traditions and styles of worship that are contrary to the New Testament. You are correct, two cannot walk together if they are not in unity. The problem is that the CC is not in unity with the New Testament, far from it. So, I would be a hypocrite if I pretended that the CC was anything other than a cult which has presented itself to the world as the true Christian church descended from Peter and the Apostles.

The CC IS the church that descended from Peter and the Apostles.
This is plain and simple history and I'm surprised you can't agree with this.

As to being a cult....a cult follows a person, the CC follows Jesus, just like we do.
The Pope is not honored and worshipped at Mass - Jesus is.

 

[Barbarian]

One last post here, and a thought. First, theology won't save anyone. A heart inclined to God and to your fellow man will save you. According to Jesus, everything else depends on those two commandments.

That being so, the rest of it matters only insofar as it helps you grow towards a perfect fulfillment of those two commandments. If Jesus told His people to emulate a heretical Samaritan who loved his fellow man enough to care for him, as opposed to a theologically-correct Levite, who did not, the message is not "it's good to help people in need." It's that salvation isn't a matter of knowing the right people or being in the right club, or even being correct about everything regarding God. It's just loving God and loving your fellow man, to the point that your life exhibits that love. And the person who is so inclined is my brother in Christ, regardless of his denomination.

May He strengthen all of us to grow in that direction.

 

[jaybo]

I'm not against Roman Catholics. My wife is one, and so is her family. What I am actually against is a church that has traditions and styles of worship that are contrary to the New Testament. You are correct, two cannot walk together if they are not in unity. The problem is that the CC is not in unity with the New Testament, far from it. So, I would be a hypocrite if I pretended that the CC was anything other than a cult which has presented itself to the world as the true Christian church descended from Peter and the Apostles.

Great post!