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The Catholic Church.

wondering said:
Why did you post 1 Peter 3:21?

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Are you saying ONLY baptism saves us?
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It shows that the way baptism saves us is by the pledge of a clear conscience.
 
wondering said:
I don't believe I've ever said that the CC is the one true church.
What I've been saying is that it's the original church...that we can trace it back to right after the Apostles.

It can be debated if the CC is what is left of the early church OR if it's the Orthodox church which split in 1054.
However, there is no doubt that the Lutheran church does not go back to the beginning.
The Lutheran church goes back to Luther in the early 1500's.

And, of course, the fact that the CC states it is the original church does not make it so....
history makes it so.

I must say, also, that the church in Acts is the very beginning of the church.
There was even a dispute as to whether or not one needed to be circumcised in order to become a Jewish Christian.
Rules started to be written after the fall of Jerusalem - the earliest I know of is the Didache, about the year 90AD.
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IMHO there is no basis for saying that the Catholic Church (or any other denomination) is the one true church. There is one church, the body of Christ. The Catholic "church", the Orthodox "church", the Protestant "church", etc. are denominations.

"Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided?" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13a, NET 2.1

It is nothing but pride to claim otherwise, just as the Jews thought of themselves as "the people of God", separate from the heathen Gentiles.
 
jaybo said:
IMHO there is no basis for saying that the Catholic Church (or any other denomination) is the one true church. There is one church, the body of Christ. The Catholic "church", the Orthodox "church", the Protestant "church", etc. are denominations.

"Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided?" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13a, NET 2.1

It is nothing but pride to claim otherwise, just as the Jews thought of themselves as "the people of God", separate from the heathen Gentiles.
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Jaybo,,,,
The basis for saying that the Catholic church is the original church is this:
It's not pride...it's history.

I see that Fastfredy0 gives you likes regarding this subject.
Does he know that the reformed church comes from some very odd ideas that Augustine had
in the 400's ? I would safely assume that he does.

Perhaps he would like to add to this conversation and advise us WHICH CHURCH Augustine belonged to?

That would be nice.

If you need a family tree for the CC, I can provide that too....
However, I was hoping you'd look this up yourself since you seem to have no confidence in me.

I would like to remind you that I'm protestant and am, however, intellectually honest, and the CC is the original church,
and if You believe that it is not,,,I wish you'd tell me which one is.

I do REPEAT, that I never said the CC is the one TRUE church...only that it is the original church.
I don't know what the one true church is....
My opinion is that there is only ONE TRUE CHURCH....
The Body of Christ.
 
wondering said:
Jaybo,,,,
The basis for saying that the Catholic church is the original church is this:
It's not pride...it's history.

I see that Fastfredy0 gives you likes regarding this subject.
Does he know that the reformed church comes from some very odd ideas that Augustine had
in the 400's ? I would safely assume that he does.

Perhaps he would like to add to this conversation and advise us WHICH CHURCH Augustine belonged to?

That would be nice.

If you need a family tree for the CC, I can provide that too....
However, I was hoping you'd look this up yourself since you seem to have no confidence in me.

I would like to remind you that I'm protestant and am, however, intellectually honest, and the CC is the original church,
and if You believe that it is not,,,I wish you'd tell me which one is.

I do REPEAT, that I never said the CC is the one TRUE church...only that it is the original church.
I don't know what the one true church is....
My opinion is that there is only ONE TRUE CHURCH....
The Body of Christ.
Click to expand...
Which one of the seven churches is the "original church" then? John wrote to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, or Laodicea. It doesn't say anything in my Bible about any of these being Catholic. IMHO it's nothing but pride to claim that the Catholic denomination is the original church.
 
jaybo said:
Which one of the seven churches is the "original church" then? John wrote to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, or Laodicea. It doesn't say anything in my Bible about any of these being Catholic. IMHO it's nothing but pride to claim that the Catholic denomination is the original church.
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The 7 churches were catholic churches.
You won't find this history in the bible.
Look elsewhere.

End of story.
 
wondering said:
The 7 churches were catholic churches.
You won't find this history in the bible.
Look elsewhere.

End of story.
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a) Nowhere in the Bible does the word "catholic" appear
b) I don't look outside the Bible for anything authoritative about "the church".

So, putting these two together I can't accept the fiction that the seven churches were Catholic.
 
wondering said:
I do REPEAT, that I never said the CC is the one TRUE church...only that it is the original church.
I don't know what the one true church is....
My opinion is that there is only ONE TRUE CHURCH....
The Body of Christ.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

A presupposition is an implicit assumption about the world or background belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted in discourse.

My presupposition is: the only source of infallible knowledge of God is the 66 books. Aside: from nature there is a modicum of God's glory that is evident and our corrupted conscience provides a corrupted (not to be trusted) knowledge of God and his laws.

The R.C. churches presupposition as to the source of infallible knowledge of God varies from mine.

Conclusion: Someone's presupposition is wrong. Assuming one presupposition is correct one can proffer that God's wrath will be upon the offending group and groups are made up of individuals. Many individuals from either camp have postulated upon the eternal consequences for individuals whose presupposition is incorrect. Therefore, use your God given powers to make this important choice. Aside: the choice, according to statistics, is made by your birth parents in a majority of cases as converting to a presupposition different than your parents is the exception to the rule. In other words, your parents free will :neutral usually determines your presupposition as to what God's instructions are.

wondering said:
Perhaps he would like to add to this conversation and advise us WHICH CHURCH Augustine belonged to?
Click to expand...
I don't know. I wonder which presupposition Augustine used as to his source of revelation. Seems like he changed his mind when he got older. Aside: I like Augustine's writings (the stuff I've read).

Augustine taught variants of these five points of Augustinian Calvinism the last eighteen years of his life. Previously he had taught traditional Christian views defending humanity's free choice to believe against the deterministic Manichaeans, to which he had belonged for a decade before converting to Christianity. Google

In Roman Catholicism, [Augustine] is formally recognized as a doctor of the church. Google
 
Wouldn't the "original Church" be the same Church that exists today and does that Church truly exist today?
 
WIP said:
Wouldn't the "original Church" be the same Church that exists today and does that Church truly exist today?
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Define what you mean by "original Church". For instance, some say the O.T. saints are part of the church while others say the church started at Pentecost. Some say the church is made up of all the saints, others refer to physical buildings and others to the R.C.C.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Define what you mean by "original Church". For instance, some say the O.T. saints are part of the church while others say the church started at Pentecost. Some say the church is made up of all the saints, others refer to physical buildings and others to the R.C.C.
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What I mean by "original Church" is the Church that Jesus built when He said, "On this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
 
WIP said:
Wouldn't the "original Church" be the same Church that exists today and does that Church truly exist today?
Click to expand...
There is one church and one church only: the body of Christ. There are various denominations, representing various ways of interpreting Christianity, but Christ is not divided. There is a warning against this division in Mark 3:25, "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand." and 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, " Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"
 
jaybo said:
There is one church and one church only: the body of Christ. There are various denominations, representing various ways of interpreting Christianity, but Christ is not divided. There is a warning against this division in Mark 3:25, "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand." and 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, " Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"
Click to expand...
Do you know the difference between
Church
church ?
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Agreed.

A presupposition is an implicit assumption about the world or background belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted in discourse.

My presupposition is: the only source of infallible knowledge of God is the 66 books. Aside: from nature there is a modicum of God's glory that is evident and our corrupted conscience provides a corrupted (not to be trusted) knowledge of God and his laws.

The R.C. churches presupposition as to the source of infallible knowledge of God varies from mine.

Conclusion: Someone's presupposition is wrong. Assuming one presupposition is correct one can proffer that God's wrath will be upon the offending group and groups are made up of individuals. Many individuals from either camp have postulated upon the eternal consequences for individuals whose presupposition is incorrect. Therefore, use your God given powers to make this important choice. Aside: the choice, according to statistics, is made by your birth parents in a majority of cases as converting to a presupposition different than your parents is the exception to the rule. In other words, your parents free will :neutral usually determines your presupposition as to what God's instructions are.


I don't know. I wonder which presupposition Augustine used as to his source of revelation. Seems like he changed his mind when he got older. Aside: I like Augustine's writings (the stuff I've read).

Augustine taught variants of these five points of Augustinian Calvinism the last eighteen years of his life. Previously he had taught traditional Christian views defending humanity's free choice to believe against the deterministic Manichaeans, to which he had belonged for a decade before converting to Christianity. Google

In Roman Catholicism, [Augustine] is formally recognized as a doctor of the church. Google
Click to expand...
Can't reply on a cell.
Tomorrow.
 
There are many "churches" mentioned in the New Testament; the word appears 119 times in the New Testament, often including a physical location, e.g., Jerusalem, Cenchrea, Antioch, Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. These are places on the map, but they are nothing more than that.

No physical location or denomination can call itself the one true church ; there is only one true church: the body of Christ.
 
wondering said:
Do you know the difference between
Church
church ?
Click to expand...
Capital "C"?

BTW, there is not a single place in my Bible where the word "church" is capitalized. Nowhere.

But "churches" is mentioned 35 times. Two examples: "Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you." Romans 16:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:16, "If anyone intends to quarrel about this, we have no other practice, nor do the churches of God." And there are many more...
 
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wondering said:
Oh.
You mean that's your answer?
LOL

Church is the Body of Christ.
church is the institution/building, etc.
Click to expand...

That's your opinion only. As I pointed out "Church" (capitalized) doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. It does appear elsewhere of course, such as in "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and "The Church of Satan"
 
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