The Catholic Church.

[Bethel]

Indeed. Hence your previous assertion that Mary was created by the Catholic Church is demonstrably fallacious.

I never said that Mary was created by the Catholic church.
So, if you can be honest, that would be helpful

I said that the Catholic Church "makes things up".

Then i listed #3-5.

Let me show you again.
See these?
These are Catholic Church fantasy.-
------------

3.) The perpetual virginity of Mary was taught by the ecumenical Second Council of Constantinople in 553, which described her as "ever virgin", and was expressed also, by the Lateran synod of October 649,

4.) The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that from the first moment of her existence Mary was without original sin. This doctrine was proclaimed a dogma ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

5.) The dogma of the Assumption of Mary, defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, states that, at the end of her earthly life, her body did not suffer corruption but was assumed into heaven and became a heavenly body,

 

[Walpole]

I never said that Mary was created by the Catholic church.
So, if you can be honest, that would be helpful

Here are you exact words:

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." - You, here

Once again, Mary (nor her position) was not created by the Catholic Church, but rather by God.

I said that the Catholic Church "makes things up".

Then i listed #3-5.

Let me show you again.
See these?
These are Catholic Church fantasy.-
------------

3.) The perpetual virginity of Mary was taught by the ecumenical Second Council of Constantinople in 553, which described her as "ever virgin", and was expressed also, by the Lateran synod of October 649,

4.) The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that from the first moment of her existence Mary was without original sin. This doctrine was proclaimed a dogma ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

5.) The dogma of the Assumption of Mary, defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, states that, at the end of her earthly life, her body did not suffer corruption but was assumed into heaven and became a heavenly body,

I addressed these (here), and your attempt at a refutation is, "All of this is Catholic make believe."?

Perhaps you'll make an actual attempt at answering my post?

As I demonstrated, Luther praises and celebrates these Marian feasts. Therefore...

---> If all these are "Catholic make believe", why is THE progenitor of Protestantism preaching sermons on them?

 

[Bethel]

Here are you exact words:

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." -

Exactly.
Thank you for posting the quote.

See, you were not honest when you falsely said that i said ... : (here is your Quote).... """""Mary was created by the Catholic Church""""

Notice i never said anything about Mary being CREATED.

I said.....""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC."""""

I said Mary's POSITION IS CREATED......THE "POSITION"........... IN other words, how the CC elevates Mary to a POSITION of "queen". "mediatrix"...
The CC has elevated Mary to the POSITION of being a part of the means of Salvation.

Let me show you the Catholic doctrine, so that you can learn what it is they teach.

"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""
""

 

[Fastfredy0]

As for #3-5, I should remind you these were all held by the progenitors of Protestantism. For example, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8th) in 1527, Martin Luther preached a sermon on original sin. He opens his sermon with the following...

The foundation of protestant doctrine is NOT its progenitors; it is scripture alone (sola scriptura - 66 books). Martin Luther is NOT the infallible pope of Protestantism. One should not fallaciously refer to Luther and any other theologian's opinion as determinative of Protestantism.

Aside: How Jesus had brothers and yet Mary is a virgin even now is beyond reason. Joseph was one patient guy ... maybe he was a eunuch.
To be fair, and not surprisingly to me, I read the the brothers of Christ found in scripture being referred to by the Catholic Church the adelphoi would be cousins of Jesus, while for the Orthodox Church they would be step-brothers, children of Joseph from a previous marriage. (Google)

Aside: Walpole does articulate his theology well ... kudos ...

 

[jaybo]

As I wrote elsewhere, the word in Isaiah that says a female will conceive and bear a son is the normal term for a young woman, not specifically a virgin. Also, since Mary gave birth to Jesus' brothers, why aren't they holy if they're from the same mother? It's very odd that a virgin can give birth to multiple children.

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=reminder]
Let's keep in mind the ToS 1.1 Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love, (Matthew 7:12; 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

Discussing the many indifferences between Catholic's and Protestant's can become very heated and I thank all of you for keeping it civil thus far in what you present to each other.
[/ACMP]

 

[Serving Zion]

I forbid my sons from partaking of communion until they made a statement of faith. Did I sin? My dad did the same with me.

I have seen children denied the participation and it saddened me to see their spirit getting broken. They literally went from being happy and full of joy (the fruits of the spirit) to being hurt and resentful. So because I didn't see your own children, I can only say that sometimes it would be sin to do that because it is only grieving the Holy Spirit. There's nothing wrong with them celebrating the Lord and joining in the fellowship if they are doing it with a good conscience. It helps them to feel that they are part of the body of Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have seen children denied the participation and it saddened me to see their spirit getting broken. They literally went from being happy and full of joy (the fruits of the spirit) to being hurt and resentful. So because I didn't see your own children, I can only say that sometimes it would be sin to do that because it is only grieving the Holy Spirit. There's nothing wrong with them celebrating the Lord and joining in the fellowship if they are doing it with a good conscience. It helps them to feel that they are part of the body of Christ.

My view point is different IMO. My dad would not let me take communion until he felt I was regenerated. Even as a child I knew that the sacrament had to be taken seriously. I respected my father and knew he had my best interest in view. When he said I could participate I refused the first time as I wanted to know the meaning of it before proceeding. He explained communion to me and the next time I participated. Then and now I take communion seriously and with reverence and for me this is more important than having my unregenerated and uneducated children take part in the seldom event. .... but that's me

 

[jaybo]

In Judaism one is bar mitzvah (or bat mitzvah) at age 13. That is the age at which one is considered to be capable of thinking as an adult. Perhaps that should also be the age for children to take communion.

 

[Walpole]

Exactly.
Thank you for posting the quote.

See, you were not honest when you falsely said that i said ... : (here is your Quote).... """""Mary was created by the Catholic Church""""

Notice i never said anything about Mary being CREATED.

How am I not being honest? Here again are YOUR words...

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." - You, here

Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.

I said.....""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC."""""

I said Mary's POSITION IS CREATED......THE "POSITION"........... IN other words, how the CC elevates Mary to a POSITION of "queen". "mediatrix"...
The CC has elevated Mary to the POSITION of being a part of the means of Salvation.

Let me show you the Catholic doctrine, so that you can learn what it is they teach.

"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""
""

She is mediatrix of grace by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to the Jesus Christ, who is source of all grace. Ergo, she is the channel of grace to mankind; the gate by which God entered into His creation.

This type of poetic language is no different than a Protestant stating, "Our salvation comes from the word of God.” (Example.) Salvation does come from a book, but rather from the Person of Jesus Christ. However, if one learns about Jesus Christ via the word of God, then this statement is not problematic in context.

 

[Walpole]

The foundation of protestant doctrine is NOT its progenitors; it is scripture alone (sola scriptura - 66 books). Martin Luther is NOT the infallible pope of Protestantism. One should not fallaciously refer to Luther and any other theologian's opinion as determinative of Protestantism.

You missed my point. I quoted the progenitor preaching sermons on the feast days of the Immaculate Conception in 1527 and the Assumption in 1522 to demonstrate that belief in Mary's immaculate conception and assumption were part of the regula fidei of the Christian faith and not something created out of thin air in the 19th and 20th century as the other poster is implying.

Aside: How Jesus had brothers and yet Mary is a virgin even now is beyond reason. Joseph was one patient guy ... maybe he was a eunuch.
To be fair, and not surprisingly to me, I read the the brothers of Christ found in scripture being referred to by the Catholic Church the adelphoi would be cousins of Jesus, while for the Orthodox Church they would be step-brothers, children of Joseph from a previous marriage. (Google)

Scripture does say Jesus had brothers (and sisters). However, Scripture shows they were not uterine brothers. As I stated in previous posts here, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than a uterine or agnate sibling.

Aside: Walpole does articulate his theology well ... kudos ...

Thanks for the compliment, but what I try to articulate comes from the study of the thought of others. My goal for posting here is that others would at the very least come away from discussions concluding my positions / arguments / beliefs are quite reasonable to hold.

I do appreciate the charity by which most have been posting. It is appreciated.

 

[Bethel]

How am I not being honest? Here again are YOUR words...

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." - You, here

Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.


She is mediatrix of grace by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to the Jesus Christ, who is source of all grace. Ergo, she is the channel of grace to mankind; the gate by which God entered into His creation.

This type of poetic language is no different than a Protestant stating, "Our salvation comes from the word of God.” (Example.) Salvation does come from a book, but rather from the Person of Jesus Christ. However, if one learns about Jesus Christ via the word of God, then this statement is not problematic in context.

Well, now you are saying that you originally posted that i said "position", but in fact, you didnt. As originally you didnt even post my Quote, you just accused.
So, thats not honest.
You are now quoting my Post, while you are now changing your explanation.

Also, Mary is not the "channel of Grace".
The only "channel of Grace" offered by God is God's mercy. And this Mercy is the Cross of Christ, and the shed blood and Death of Christ.
There is the "channel of God's grace", offered, and found.
There is no other.. So to state that Mary is a "grace channel" when Jesus said that He is the "only Way", John 14:6, denies the words of Christ and insults the very Grace of God.

 

[Walpole]

Well, now you are saying that you originally posted that i said "position", but in fact, you didnt. As originally you didnt even post my Quote, you just accused.
So, thats not honest.
You are now quoting my Post, while you are now changing your explanation.

I've done no such thing as I have QUOTED YOU and even provided the link to your quotation. You even responded initially by stating Mary was created by her parents so clearly you knew what I was responding to in your initial post when I stated she was created by God.

"Mary was actually created by her parents" - You


You then doubled down, trying once again to remove God from my argument that He created Mary and stated it was simple biology...

"God is the Creator, however, a sperm and a egg in a womb, followed by a birth, is the creation of Mary, and you as well.
This is simple biology." - You


Please stop accusing me of being dishonest. Your posts are there for all to see. I will state once again that Mary, and her position, was created by God and not the Catholic Church.

Instead of continuing to lob ad hominems, perhaps you would care to answer my questions posed to you in my previous posts?

Also, Mary is not the "channel of Grace".
The only "channel of Grace" offered by God is God's mercy. And this Mercy is the Cross of Christ, and the shed blood and Death of Christ.
There is the "channel of God's grace", offered, and found.

There is no other.. So to state that Mary is a "grace channel" when Jesus said that He is the "only Way", denies the words of Christ and insults the very Grace of God.

She is the channel by virtue of giving a human nature to and birth to He who is the source of grace, Jesus Christ.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

 

[Serving Zion]

In Judaism one is bar mitzvah (or bat mitzvah) at age 13. That is the age at which one is considered to be capable of thinking as an adult. Perhaps that should also be the age for children to take communion.

Such rules are only needed by those who cannot judge for themselves the fruits of the spirit. Jesus said "do not forbid the little ones from coming to me, for to such belongs the kingdom of God". He also condemned those who shut up the way to the kingdom of God, which is effectively what you do to those who are entering in with joy and without conviction. Only when they have managed to crush the spirit then they are satisfied that they have won.

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=warning]
1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

Everyone needs to take a step back and truly read what another post instead of reading into them and accusing others of attacking their beliefs. If this continues this thread will be closed.
[/ACMP]

 

[Bethel]

I've done no such thing as I have QUOTED YOU and even provided the link to your quotation.

You are very confused.
I feel that we have a language barrier, as you are not posting what you think you are saying, and you are not understanding what i posted.

I originally posted that the PURPOSE of Mary as defined by the CC, = is the problem.

You then posted that i said that "The Catholic Church created Mary".

So, this has now turned into about 10 more of your confused posts, and so, im going to let you have it.

Just remember, i never said that "Catholics Created Mary"......I said that the CC created the purpose of Mary to be a mediatrix and queen, which is a Catholic only doctrinal creation, not related to the bible, or any document, that is not a Catholic document.

Ok then.


-B

 

[Walpole]

You are very confused.
I feel that we have a language barrier, as you are not posting what you think you are saying, and you are not understanding what i posted.

I originally posted that the PURPOSE of Mary as defined by the CC, = is the problem.

You then posted that i said that "The Catholic Church created Mary".

So, this has now turned into about 10 more of your confused posts, and so, im going to let you have it.

Just remember, i never said that "Catholics Created Mary"......I said that the CC created the purpose of Mary to be a mediatrix and queen, which is a Catholic only doctrinal creation, not related to the bible, or any document, that is not a Catholic document.

Ok then.


-B

There is no confusion on my end and what you are doing is called moving the goal post fallacy. Here again is your original quotation...

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." - You, here

At no time did you ever mention Mary's purpose. This is the very first post where you have introduced her purpose. Hence you have moved the goal post.

I have stated multiple times in this thread that Mary, and her position, was created by God, not the Catholic Church. There is no ambiguity on my end. My posts directly answer your original assertion.

You first accuse me of being dishonest, then move the goal post by changing your argument because your original posts (and my response to them) are here for all to see.

 

[Bethel]

There is no confusion on my end and what you are doing is called moving the goal post fallacy. Here again is your original quotation...

"For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC." - You, here

At no time did you ever mention Mary's purpose. This is the very first post where you have introduced her purpose. Hence you have moved the goal post.

I have stated multiple times in this thread that Mary, and her position, was created by God, not the Catholic Church. There is no ambiguity on my end. My posts directly answer your original assertion.

You first accuse me of being dishonest, then move the goal post by changing your argument because your original posts (and my response to them) are here for all to see.

You probably feel that if a person discusses Catholic Theology, they are personally attacking you.
But, in my case, that is not even related to our discussion.
You can believe that i dont hate Catholics.
I dont hate anyone.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now....Here is the "goal post"..... You said that i said that "Catholics created Mary".

So, that was your original, false statement.

You have now quoted what i posted, and you noticed i never said that "Catholics Created Mary".

I said, "position"..... but i explained it to you a few times as the >purpose<, and i will post the Catholic Theology for you again down below that explains both the "position and purpose".

The CC elevates Mary, as i said, to "mediatrix, and queen", and she is neither.


Here is the CC theology.
-
"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""

 

[WIP]

It sounds like you guys are stuck in defensive mode and neither is going to budge so maybe it's time to move on past this?

 

[jaybo]

I have a very difficult time understanding the CC belief in Mary. She was just a random teenager selected by God to give birth to Jesus in human form and apparently did a good job of raising Him. She is not and never will be divine.

There is a very strong belief in marianismo where I live...

Marianismo is an aspect of the female gender role in the machismo of Hispanic American folk culture. It is the veneration for feminine virtues like purity and moral strength. For example, it represents the "virgin" aspect of the dichotomy. Evelyn Stevens states: it teaches that women are semi-divine, morally superior to and spiritually stronger than men." The ideas within marianismo include those of feminine passivity and sexual purity. In marianismo, power that is granted to women stems from the female ability to produce life. This term derives from Catholic belief in Mary, mother of Jesus, as both a virgin and a mother. She became a subject of veneration and admiration. From this is derived the idea that an ideal woman should be spiritually immaculate and eternally self-giving. source: wikipedia