The Catholic Church.

[GodsGrace]

I'll reply to only one thing that you wrote: every Christian religion believes in salvation by works after we attain faith.

That is not the case. Salvation is a gift of God; there is no salvation by works after we attain faith. (Or even before).

Ephjesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

We are saved THROUGH GRACE
BY FAITH

That is salvation.

What keeps us saved?

Colossians 2:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...

John 8:31
....IF you abide in my word...THEN you are truly disciples of Mine.


James 2:6
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're correct. I never said otherwise. Catholic as it was used in 110 AD was a descriptive term meaning all encompassing and that definition is still valid today for it is representative of Christ's Church.

Catholic means Universal...
The Universal Church.
Because there was NO OTHER church.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the most often cited verses in the Bible by Catholics concerning the church's foundation is Matthew 16:18, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Along with this is the claim that the Catholic church is older than the Bible.

Aside from the logical absurdity to claim that the Old Testament is newer than the Catholic church, how is it possible for Jesus to say in Scripture that "on this rock I will build my church" (future tense)? Clearly, when Jesus spoke these words and furthermore, when they were written, the church had not yet been founded. There is no other way to interpret this.

The Bible -- all of it -- predates the Catholic church.

The O.T. predates the CC.
The CC predates the N.T.
By, the N.T. I mean the books that we recognize as the New Testament.

The N.T. was canonized in the 300's.
The CC was in existence by the end of the first century.

So what comes first....
100 AD
or
300 AD?

If 100 AD comes first, then the CC was in existence before the New Testament.

 

[jaybo]

Every denomination I know of adds things to what scripture says...
and that doesn't make it legitimate.

Who do you think put the bible together anyway?
It was the Catholic church in the 300's.

And sola scripture is NOT all we know about what Jesus taught.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.


2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


By our spoken word or by our letter.
By our spoken word.
Were they passed down somehow?

"Every denomination I know of adds things to what scripture says..." Such as..?

"Who do you think put the bible together anyway? It was the Catholic church in the 300's." Are you joking? The Bible existed long before the Catholic church -- centuries before. The last "book" of the Bible was written by John in approximately 90 CE. The Old Testament was in existence centuries before that. The Catholic church determined the canon of Scripture, even though not everyone agrees with the decision.

"... sola scripture is NOT all we know about what Jesus taught". What else do "we know" about what Jesus taught (outside of Scripture)?

There is a logical contradiction here: the Catholic church determined the canon of Scripture -- what is authentic -- but you say there is more that Jesus taught? Recorded by whom? And if so, why do you consider those things to be authoritative?

The Catholic church has throughout its history added many things to the Bible. None of which are (obviously) scriptural. No Pope, no Catholic church, no separate priesthood, no worshiping Mary and/or saints, etc.

 

[jaybo]

Catholic means Universal...
The Universal Church.
Because there was NO OTHER church.

There is a difference between the Catholic church -- "Catholic" -- and "catholic": including a wide variety of things; all-embracing."

It's not "The Universal Church". It's just a denomination.
The word "Catholic" is not in the Bible. The early church was simply the early church, not a denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the most often cited verses in the Bible by Catholics concerning the church's foundation is Matthew 16:18, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Along with this is the claim that the Catholic church is older than the Bible.

Aside from the logical absurdity to claim that the Old Testament is newer than the Catholic church, how is it possible for Jesus to say in Scripture that "on this rock I will build my church" (future tense)? Clearly, when Jesus spoke these words and furthermore, when they were written, the church had not yet been founded. There is no other way to interpret this.

The Bible -- all of it -- predates the Catholic church.

It's debated by brains bigger than ours as to whether or not Jesus meant that Peter would be the builder of His church.
As it turned out,,it was really Paul. Someone had to build the church...it wouldn't happen on its own.

I'd also remind you that Jesus gave to Peter the Keys of the Kingdom...
Matthew 16:19
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom --- the Kingdom on Earth.
He even gave Peter the authority to bind and loose.
This cannot be denied.

As to Peter being the first Pope....he was not the first pope...
again, you should study some church history.
He was the first Pope by antedating.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a difference between the Catholic church -- "Catholic" -- and "catholic": including a wide variety of things; all-embracing."

It's not "The Universal Church". It's just a denomination.
The word "Catholic" is not in the Bible. The early church was simply the early church, not a denomination.

The word TRINITY is not in the bible.

 

[Fastfredy0]

every Christian religion believes in salvation by works after we attain faith.

Speaking for the REFORMED denominations official stance (not that they have designated me a spokesman) ... they do not believe in salvation by works where 'salvation by works' means they have to do works to retain our salvation. They believe that one's faith will, without exception, cause one to have works, but the works are in no way 'saving works'. This may be a subtle definition that some fine difficult to grasp.

Furthermore, those works following one's conversion are caused by and orchestrated by God:

• Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.,
• Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
• John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
• John 16:13, Acts 17:28, yahda, yahda, yahda

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

 

[jaybo]

We are saved THROUGH GRACE
BY FAITH

That is salvation.

What keeps us saved?

Colossians 2:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...

John 8:31
....IF you abide in my word...THEN you are truly disciples of Mine.


James 2:6
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Wrong! Jesus keeps us saved. Anything or anyone else that you say keeps us saved is heresy. John 6:39, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." Jesus' own words!

I am not going to continue to debate with you about what the Bible clearly and unequivocally says. You can come up with all kinds of doctrinal errors but that doesn't change what the Bible says.

If there was salvation by works all Israel would be saved. It's what's known as keeping the Law, which is impossible.

 

[jaybo]

The word TRINITY is not in the bible.

So what???

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a difference between the Catholic church -- "Catholic" -- and "catholic": including a wide variety of things; all-embracing."

It's not "The Universal Church". It's just a denomination.
The word "Catholic" is not in the Bible. The early church was simply the early church, not a denomination.

Catholic means universal.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong! Jesus keeps us saved. Anything or anyone else that you say keeps us saved is heresy. John 6:39, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." Jesus' own words!

I am not going to continue to debate with you about what the Bible clearly and unequivocally says. You can come up with all kinds of doctrinal errors but that doesn't change what the Bible says.

If there was salvation by works all Israel would be saved. It's what's known as keeping the Law, which is impossible.

Please state some verses that say Jesus will keep us saved with no effort on our part....

I stated a few that state works are required...
I have plenty more....

 

[GodsGrace]

So what???

Jaybo,
Why does the word CATHOLIC have to be in the bible in order for it to be the first and original church?
How could something that happened eventually AFTER the gospels and epistles were written be INCLUDED with the gospel and epistles??

 

[jaybo]

Catholic means universal.

Wrong. Catholic (capitalized noun) refers to the denomination; catholic (lowercase adjective) means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing."

Ford (capitalized noun) is a brand of automobile; ford means "a shallow place in a river or stream allowing one to walk or drive across" or (as a verb) "cross (a river or stream) at a shallow place."

Capitalization means something specific in English.

 

[jaybo]

Please state some verses that say Jesus will keep us saved with no effort on our part....

I stated a few that state works are required...
I have plenty more....

Again, and for the last time, John 6:39, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." Do you really think that Jesus needs your help???

Bye, wondering. I'm done!

 

[GodsGrace]

"Every denomination I know of adds things to what scripture says..." Such as..?

"Who do you think put the bible together anyway? It was the Catholic church in the 300's." Are you joking? The Bible existed long before the Catholic church -- centuries before. The last "book" of the Bible was written by John in approximately 90 CE. The Old Testament was in existence centuries before that. The Catholic church determined the canon of Scripture, even though not everyone agrees with the decision.

"... sola scripture is NOT all we know about what Jesus taught". What else do "we know" about what Jesus taught (outside of Scripture)?

There is a logical contradiction here: the Catholic church determined the canon of Scripture -- what is authentic -- but you say there is more that Jesus taught? Recorded by whom? And if so, why do you consider those things to be authoritative?

The Catholic church has throughout its history added many things to the Bible. None of which are (obviously) scriptural. No Pope, no Catholic church, no separate priesthood, no worshiping Mary and/or saints, etc.

I would be more than happy to answer your questions...
but I fear they are not sincere but are only rhetorical.
This is unfortunate because there would be a lot to learn here.

I'd like to remind you that I'm Protestant.
The difference between us may possibly be that I know some church history.
I say "some" because there is SO MUCH MORE to know, that I will never be able to study.
We should all know the basics and not let prejudice keep us from learning.

For instance....there were Popes as early as the beginning of the 2nd century, or the late 1st century.
They were called Bishops...they were picked by Apostles.....

Find out about this.
Find out why these Bishops were necessary and WHEN it was decided that Pope was needed.
It would be interesting studying for you, and anyone reading along.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong. Catholic (capitalized noun) refers to the denomination; catholic (lowercase adjective) means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing."

Ford (capitalized noun) is a brand of automobile; ford means "a shallow place in a river or stream allowing one to walk or drive across" or (as a verb) "cross (a river or stream) at a shallow place."

Capitalization means something specific in English.

Thanks for the info.
I'll try to remember it.

BTW,,,,universal means all-embracing.

catholic​

[ kath-uh-lik, kath-lik ]SHOW IPA

---

adjective​

broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

source: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/catholic

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, and for the last time, John 6:39, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." Do you really think that Jesus needs your help???

Bye, wondering. I'm done!

The attitude you display above is why I did not take the time to explain some concepts to you or answer your rhetorical questions.

One verse does not a doctrine make....
The entire N.T., ALL TOGETHER, makes doctrine.
It's the only way.

 

[GodsGrace]

Speaking for the REFORMED denominations official stance (not that they have designated me a spokesman) ... they do not believe in salvation by works where 'salvation by works' means they have to do works to retain our salvation. They believe that one's faith will, without exception, cause one to have works, but the works are in no way 'saving works'. This may be a subtle definition that some fine difficult to grasp.

Furthermore, those works following one's conversion are caused by and orchestrated by God:

• Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.,
• Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
• John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
• John 16:13, Acts 17:28, yahda, yahda, yahda

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

The reformed faith teaches that if one does not do works up to the end of their life...
it means they were never saved to begin with.

This also means that a person will not know if they are truly saved or not until the end of their life.
God could, after all, just take salvation away from anyone, if He so wishes.

See: Book 3 Chapter 24 Paragraph 8

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If you know about catholicism, you must know that you are not officially a catholic.

True - but in Massachusetts I'm a Catholic legally (for purposes of adoption, and religious status), being in the Catholic baptismal records.

No, I'm NOT a "Practicing Catholic", and never was. Dad was a Christmas and Easter Catholic, and Mom was a Born Again Baptist (a "Mixed Marriage" in Massachusetts). they settled the issue by being neither, and were married by a JP in Vermont. The Carabbio family, of course wouldn't accept the marriage (only a marriage in a Catholic CHurch was valid in those days), so they got RE-Married the "Right way", so that I wouldn't be a Bastard. They had to promise to raise me Catholic - but fortunately, they didn't.

I'd like to know exactly what pagan rituals they practice since I don't know of any.You think they believe in salvation by works?

Well, there's praying to Saints, The Whole Marian mess, the lie that a Priest can "Forgive sins not committed against himself", Purgatorial Sanctification, Transsubstantiation, MORTAL and Venial SIN, Infant Baptism, to name a few.

Every Christian religion believes in salvation by works after we attain faith.

But the Catholics believe the Works CONTRIBUTE to their salvation, which is not Biblical.

Are you one of those persons that believes Jesus did everything for us so we could sit around and do nothing?

When a Person is Born Again of the Holy SPirit, they will be CHANGED, and as a RESULT of their salvation, there will be good works as the fruit of that relationship. The "Works", however are not salvific.

I agree that the church was doing things that were wrong at the time of Luther and before that.
But it's not like that today.

ONLY because they've gotten their ears pinned back a few times (Like recently when they found recently that they weren't "Above the law" with their sexually predatory priests (that they used to shuffle around to keep 'em hidden).

I mean, how many years do you want to go back?

A couple of decades is all -

At least you said that Luther wanted to RESTORE the CC to its original truth.

Luther, after all WAS a EDUCATED and ORDAINED Catholic Priest in good standing, before God started opening his eyes to what was going on in his beloved church. That Tetzel was doing his thing was a red flag, and the corruption of the Pope (Leo X) at the time didn't help either.