The CURSE OF THE LAW

[francisdesales]

Jesus said EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.
the law itself says "CURSED ARE THOSE who continue not IN "ALL THINGS" WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, to do them.

SO ALL MEANS ALL!

Context, buddy. Context.

Jesus said he did not come to CHANGE ONE IOTA of the Law. He didn't say you had to keep every iota of the Law.

If you are going to "allude" to Scriptures, cite the verse, so that we can see the context.

 

[francisdesales]

The points I have made are clear and evident, they cannot be challeged except by personal insults and the like.

It is EVIDENT tha no man can be justified by the law,
That the law is not of faith.
The strength of sin, is the law.
That Christ is the end of the law for righteouness.
That those who are under the law are under the curse of the law.
Rom 7:7-8
2 Cor 3:6-15

These things are written in clear words and cannot and have not been challenged .

Citing bits and pieces of Scriptures out of context is not how one builds a theology, properly speaking - for it tends to contradict other parts of Scriptures.

If one actually believes that the ENTIRE BIBLE is God's Word, they must take into account what the ENTIRE BIBLE says. One must see the context of these verses you stick together.

What is being challenged is your theology, not the Scriptures.

 

[Mitspa]

The points I have made are clear and evident, they cannot be challeged except by personal insults and the like.

It is EVIDENT tha no man can be justified by the law,
That the law is not of faith.
The strength of sin, is the law.
That Christ is the end of the law for righteouness.
That those who are under the law are under the curse of the law.
Rom 7:7-8
2 Cor 3:6-15

These things are written in clear words and cannot and have not been challenged .

Citing bits and pieces of Scriptures out of context is not how one builds a theology, properly speaking - for it tends to contradict other parts of Scriptures.

If one actually believes that the ENTIRE BIBLE is God's Word, they must take into account what the ENTIRE BIBLE says. One must see the context of these verses you stick together.

What is being challenged is your theology, not the Scriptures.

i enjoy a good challenge to my doctrines. If they are based upon the truth of scripture? For in these things I seek the deeper understandings of the sciptures. But such nonsense as using Pauls words in Php 3 , as to somehow promote the righteousness of the law, which Paul is accounting as nothing but dung. And that his own desire is not to be found in his own righteousness, which is by the law. But that he would be found in the righteouness of God which is through faith.
This sort of nonsense does nothing to challenge anything I believe nor any doctrine I hold. It only makes me look at your earlier post, in which you ask to be treated as one who seeks the truth, as just a lot of HOT AIR.

 

[francisdesales]

i enjoy a good challenge to my doctrines. If they are based upon the truth of scripture? For in these things I seek the deeper understandings of the sciptures. But such nonsense as using Pauls words in Php 3 , as to somehow promote the righteousness of the law, which Paul is accounting as nothing but dung. And that his own desire is not to be found in his own righteousness, which is by the law. But that he would be found in the righteouness of God which is through faith.
This sort of nonsense does nothing to challenge anything I believe nor any doctrine I hold. It only makes me look at your earlier post, in which you ask to be treated as one who seeks the truth, as just a lot of HOT AIR.

Um, I see.

According to you, no one can obey the Law, yet people are obeying it throughout the Bible, to include Paul himself.
According to you, God is a God of Truth who inspires Moses to tell mankind that the Law is not "too difficult to follow" AND THEN telling us through Paul (according to you) that no one can obey it...
According to you, the Old Testament requires perfect obedience to the Law. Just IGNORE all of those Scriptures about sin offerings and Yom Kippur, there is nothing to see there...

Don't even BOTHER citing anything that actually says this. Just STATE it, "preacher" (as you have named yourself), that makes it so!

According to you, Paul declares the Law "dung", while according to Paul, it is ALSO holy and spiritual, given by God. God gives man dung, according to you, to know His Will...

According to you, I am for a return to the written code, when I have never said or implied such a thing.
According to you, I believe in initial justification through works, when I have never said or implied such a thing.

What a lame attempt to poison the well...

You seem to think theology is devoid of measured and careful thought, since each of the above are wrong, when properly understood. HOWEVER, in your rush to judge and spit out the 4 verses you are wont to do, you don't think that there may be some finer details that you are missing.

You see where this is going? Who is full of hot air, "preacher" (as you have named yourself) ??? Talk about pot calling kettle black.:gah

 

[Deborah13]

Nowhere do we find a passage in the OT about one MUST obey every part of the Law or be condemned

I would like to contribute this...I think one did have to be both judged by the Law and condemned by the Law there was no other way and this is why.

If one broke one of the laws written in the Law of Moses the only way to fix this was by obeying another law written in the Law of Moses. If one did not do this then one would have to be condemned, would they not? And often this included a penalty paid as well as a sin sacrifice.

This would be the same as .....if I speed and I knock over the neighbors mailbox. I get a ticket with a fine attached and I have to reimburse the neighbor for damages. If I do not do these things I am still in violation of the law. I'm no longer speeding but still in violation of another law within The Law.

Did GOD give grace to some offenders. We see that David committed adultery and then tried to cover it up by committing premeditated murder. Was he given grace under the Law of Moses, No. I do not see where he was exposed as a murderer and adulterer to those (the priests, I think) who enforced the Law. God gave David grace from the penalty of the Law, physical death, stoning. However, he did have to pay a very steep penalty (the death of his son).

Did David's conscious tell him to go to the priests and confess what he had done? No. He confessed to God, David understood the grace God had granted him by not exposing his sin to anyone but Nathan. (for all that think I am alluding to anything that pertains to the practices in the catholic church you are flat wrong, I have no wish to condemn my brothers in Christ).

In my example above, when I go to court for that speeding ticket I may appeal to the judge (for whatever reason) and the judge can give me grace and not force me to pay the penalty or give me a lesser fine. But the law (penalty) for that offense does not change.

In 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed the Jews could still break the Law but there was no way for them to keep it any longer. They knew this. The Levitical priesthood no longer existed. Even if one obeyed every, thou shall not almost perfectly, they cannot do every, thou shall, included in the Law. They could try. They could build an alter of unhewn stones and sacrifice a lamb but God would not accept it as sacrifice for sin...and it still would not fulfill the thou shalls.

So is the Law Cursed? Well it cannot be fulfilled by man. I do not think it was cursed when God gave it. But after Jesus fulfilled it, yes. The Scriptures say it is. There is a new way.
Only Jesus could fulfill the Law. He did that at the cross and He continues to do that through His children. He lives!

You cannot put new wine in old wineskins, for as the new expands it breaks the old and Both will be lost.

James says, that if you break one point of the Law you have broke them ALL.

I find it interesting and I have not found it in the prophecies but I'm sure it's there. That there was 40 yrs (generation?) between the beginning of Jesus ministry and the destruction of the temple. God's grace?

 

[childeye]

I still am not comfortable saying I
sin\I don't sin.

I don't think the knowledge of who 'I' am or what
the flesh/spirit is doing in me is in any way meant to make us feel more
comfortable about the fall from God's holy standards that we see in us and
around us. While Paul did identify in true knowledge the scope of his acts in
Rom 7:17, it didn't stop him from crying out Rom 7:24. And he presses on in Php
3:13-14, which seems to be the most sensible approach towards completion
by incomplete beings like us.

I feel you've straddled the paradox I have presented quite well with the above statements. And so we go on, ever discovering new depths\heights of the One Whom we address as God, our Father, The Eternal Spirit. I would even dare say that semantics appear to be no hindrance to your understanding, nor your communicating.

 

[childeye]

Ivdavid, thank you for your response on the crucifying of the flesh. Being familiar with your personal sentiments through prior writings, I expected no less. I still am not comfortable saying I sin\I don't sin. I don't expect you to reslove that issue for me, nor do I think it can be resolved in this present world. I am always left wondering whether I gave enough, suffered enough, cared enough. I do not like to feel guilty about such things, but I also am thankful to God that I do. Love is ever busy and there is always another person in need of Love. While others are hungry and I am full, I must admit, it is not right. Although I Love to Love, I also look forward to a time when no one goes without. God willing, I will see it and so will you.

No Christain will love others above the knowlede they have of Gods love for them. For this is as much a law as any law of God. WE LOVE HIM BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

we can only love based upon the love we receive first.

The Old Law demanded that we love God with all our strength mind etc... Now no one has kept this commandment but Christ.
But the New Covenant, is based upon Gods love first given to us, which causes us to love Him, and others. this is the fulfillment of the law.

I am also reminded that we can give all our goods to feed the poor, but if we do not have AGAPE, it profits nothing.

And The Lord Himself said THAT THOSE WHO ARE FORGIVEN MUCH LOVE MUCH. a believer will never love above the trust they have In His forgivness.

And love fulfills all the law, so only those who know they are sanctified forever by His one offering, will love as they should.

Your response is actually very similar to Ivdavid. However what I mostly get from this post is a welcome reminder, that men were made from the earth, and to keep my eyes fixed upon God and His Christ Who is our spiritual breath.

 

[Deborah13]

What I don't get is how you think that the perfection we're all aiming for isn't somehow the fulfillment of the Law of Moses (and then some), and how you can think it's a curse to even think about the Law of Moses.

Hi Jethro,

This is what I see and I'm not saying that it is perfect understanding.

Ask a Jew, an Orthodox Jew, not a Messianic, if they can keep the Law of Moses? I'll bet they tell you No. Because they can't. We tend to think of the Law of Moses as the big 10 and the thou shalls and shall nots. It's more than that. To keep the Law of Moses there HAS to be a Levitical priesthood and a sacrifice. All the 613 and are the Law of Moses. God gave ALL of them to Moses. This is why they are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt and the priesthood to return so that they can do the laws of the Law of Moses.

When James said what he said about being judged by the Law the temple was still there, the priesthood was still active. I believe that sometimes we need to try to look through Jewish eyes when we read the Scriptures or we miss the intent and understanding.

A Gentile cannot fulfill the Law of Moses, only a Jew can do this. Jesus did it once for all time, the sacrifice that was required was His own body and blood.

HE continues to fulfill the Thorugh us, we do not and cannot do it.

I have never said that anyone is cursed by looking at the Law of Moses. What I did say is that we are not to judge or condemn ourselves or anyone by the Law of Moses, there is no way to pay the penalty of the Law of Moses, you are just condemn.
What I did say was that we look to Jesus and His work at the cross and the Royal Law, we look at the fruit of the Spirit and the definition of charity (love) to judge.

 

[childeye]

What I don't get is how you think that the perfection we're all aiming for isn't somehow the fulfillment of the Law of Moses (and then some), and how you can think it's a curse to even think about the Law of Moses.

Hi Jethro,

This is what I see and I'm not saying that it is perfect understanding.

Ask a Jew, an Orthodox Jew, not a Messianic, if they can keep the Law of Moses? I'll bet they tell you No. Because they can't. We tend to think of the Law of Moses as the big 10 and the thou shalls and shall nots. It's more than that. To keep the Law of Moses there HAS to be a Levitical priesthood and a sacrifice. All the 613 and are the Law of Moses. God gave ALL of them to Moses. This is why they are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt and the priesthood to return so that they can do the laws of the Law of Moses.

When James said what he said about being judged by the Law the temple was still there, the priesthood was still active. I believe that sometimes we need to try to look through Jewish eyes when we read the Scriptures or we miss the intent and understanding.

A Gentile cannot fulfill the Law of Moses, only a Jew can do this. Jesus did it once for all time, the sacrifice that was required was His own body and blood.

HE continues to fulfill the Thorugh us, we do not and cannot do it.

I have never said that anyone is cursed by looking at the Law of Moses. What I did say is that we are not to judge or condemn ourselves or anyone by the Law of Moses, there is no way to pay the penalty of the Law of Moses, you are just condemn.
What I did say was that we look to Jesus and His work at the cross and the Royal Law, we look at the fruit of the Spirit and the definition of charity (love) to judge.

I like what you say here. I would like to say something like it, in a different way. I am afraid of trying to go back to the law according to the letter, because Christ suffered and died to get me out from under the curse of that law. Why can't we just believe God has made us good enough? Isn't it through doubting this, that we all sinned in the first place?

 

[reba]

A Gentile cannot fulfill the Law of Moses, only a Jew can do this. Jesus did it once for all time, the sacrifice that was required was His own body and blood.

Only a levit could do this right? Because they were the priest...

Praise Him Praise HIM
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[Deborah13]

Why can't we just believe God has made us good enough? Isn't it through doubting this, that we all sinned in the first place?

Oh and I like what you say. Yes, we didn't need the "knowledge of good and evil". God said so. It only brought us pain and condemnation.

We now have all we need in Him. Rejoice in the Lord, always and again I say rejoice!

 

[Deborah13]

A Gentile cannot fulfill the Law of Moses, only a Jew can do this. Jesus did it once for all time, the sacrifice that was required was His own body and blood.

Only a levit could do this right? Because they were the priest...

Praise Him Praise HIM
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Yes, we are a Royal priesthood and made adequate in Him to fulfill, through Him and by Him, the Royal Law of Love.

Thank you, Reba for reminding me of this.

 

[childeye]

Why can't we just believe God has made us good enough? Isn't it through doubting this, that we all sinned in the first place?

Oh and I like what you say. Yes, we didn't need the "knowledge of good and evil". God said so. It only brought us pain and condemnation.

We now have all we need in Him. Rejoice in the Lord, always and again I say rejoice!

Well said again!!! We don't need the knowledge of good and evil just like God said. And this is what cleanses my conscience and makes me an able priest. I rejoice with you through Christ our High Priest..

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus said EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.
the law itself says "CURSED ARE THOSE who continue not IN "ALL THINGS" WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, to do them.

SO ALL MEANS ALL!

Context, buddy. Context.

Jesus said he did not come to CHANGE ONE IOTA of the Law. He didn't say you had to keep every iota of the Law.

If you are going to "allude" to Scriptures, cite the verse, so that we can see the context.

Right he did not change it , He fulfilled every jot and tittle! But those who are under the law are required to keep it all!
I have posted this scripture over and over, look it up!

 

[Mitspa]

The points I have made are clear and evident, they cannot be challeged except by personal insults and the like.

It is EVIDENT tha no man can be justified by the law,
That the law is not of faith.
The strength of sin, is the law.
That Christ is the end of the law for righteouness.
That those who are under the law are under the curse of the law.
Rom 7:7-8
2 Cor 3:6-15

These things are written in clear words and cannot and have not been challenged .

Citing bits and pieces of Scriptures out of context is not how one builds a theology, properly speaking - for it tends to contradict other parts of Scriptures.

If one actually believes that the ENTIRE BIBLE is God's Word, they must take into account what the ENTIRE BIBLE says. One must see the context of these verses you stick together.

What is being challenged is your theology, not the Scriptures.

Well the contradiction is in the "canal mind" for the carnal mind is at emnity with God. What I have thaught is very clear to those who are spiritual and have ears to hear.

 

[Mitspa]

i enjoy a good challenge to my doctrines. If they are based upon the truth of scripture? For in these things I seek the deeper understandings of the sciptures. But such nonsense as using Pauls words in Php 3 , as to somehow promote the righteousness of the law, which Paul is accounting as nothing but dung. And that his own desire is not to be found in his own righteousness, which is by the law. But that he would be found in the righteouness of God which is through faith.
This sort of nonsense does nothing to challenge anything I believe nor any doctrine I hold. It only makes me look at your earlier post, in which you ask to be treated as one who seeks the truth, as just a lot of HOT AIR.

Um, I see.

According to you, no one can obey the Law, yet people are obeying it throughout the Bible, to include Paul himself.
According to you, God is a God of Truth who inspires Moses to tell mankind that the Law is not "too difficult to follow" AND THEN telling us through Paul (according to you) that no one can obey it...
According to you, the Old Testament requires perfect obedience to the Law. Just IGNORE all of those Scriptures about sin offerings and Yom Kippur, there is nothing to see there...

Don't even BOTHER citing anything that actually says this. Just STATE it, "preacher" (as you have named yourself), that makes it so!

According to you, Paul declares the Law "dung", while according to Paul, it is ALSO holy and spiritual, given by God. God gives man dung, according to you, to know His Will...

According to you, I am for a return to the written code, when I have never said or implied such a thing.
According to you, I believe in initial justification through works, when I have never said or implied such a thing.

What a lame attempt to poison the well...

You seem to think theology is devoid of measured and careful thought, since each of the above are wrong, when properly understood. HOWEVER, in your rush to judge and spit out the 4 verses you are wont to do, you don't think that there may be some finer details that you are missing.

You see where this is going? Who is full of hot air, "preacher" (as you have named yourself) ??? Talk about pot calling kettle black.:gah

Not according to me but according to the gospel.
That none is righteous, no not one!
That no man is justified before God by the law is EVIDENT!

that means it is plain as day!

Now if you wish to go about and establish your own righteousness by the law? that is up to you? According to your religion, I would expect that is very much what you have been taught.
But I will stand with Paul, NOT HAVING MY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS BY THE LAW, BUT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.
Anyone who "thinks" they are keeping the law is decieved by their own sin.
Rom 7:7-11

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus said EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.
the law itself says "CURSED ARE THOSE who continue not IN "ALL THINGS" WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, to do them.

SO ALL MEANS ALL!

Context, buddy. Context.

Jesus said he did not come to CHANGE ONE IOTA of the Law. He didn't say you had to keep every iota of the Law.

If you are going to "allude" to Scriptures, cite the verse, so that we can see the context.

Right he did not change it , He fulfilled every jot and tittle! But those who are under the law are required to keep it all!
I have posted this scripture over and over, look it up!

That's not what you said about Jesus, is it...

Where does the OT Jew have this knowledge about the "Scripture that you posted"? I am not about to look through some 400 posts. If you posted it recently, you will remember an approximate Scripture citation.

 

[francisdesales]

Um, I see.

According to you, no one can obey the Law, yet people are obeying it throughout the Bible, to include Paul himself.
According to you, God is a God of Truth who inspires Moses to tell mankind that the Law is not "too difficult to follow" AND THEN telling us through Paul (according to you) that no one can obey it...
According to you, the Old Testament requires perfect obedience to the Law. Just IGNORE all of those Scriptures about sin offerings and Yom Kippur, there is nothing to see there...

Don't even BOTHER citing anything that actually says this. Just STATE it, "preacher" (as you have named yourself), that makes it so!

According to you, Paul declares the Law "dung", while according to Paul, it is ALSO holy and spiritual, given by God. God gives man dung, according to you, to know His Will...

According to you, I am for a return to the written code, when I have never said or implied such a thing.
According to you, I believe in initial justification through works, when I have never said or implied such a thing.

What a lame attempt to poison the well...

You seem to think theology is devoid of measured and careful thought, since each of the above are wrong, when properly understood. HOWEVER, in your rush to judge and spit out the 4 verses you are wont to do, you don't think that there may be some finer details that you are missing.

You see where this is going? Who is full of hot air, "preacher" (as you have named yourself) ??? Talk about pot calling kettle black.:gah

Not according to me but according to the gospel.

same old baloney...

No, according to you. the gospel you present is slanted to one side. To a great degree. Why is this? I think part of it is because you consider only Paul's writings as "authentic" Scriptures. If you actually considered the Bible as a whole Sacred Scriptures, you would consider the tension that I have presented.

At the risk of "blowing more hot air" (but for the others who are no doubt reading...), I will present Scriptural evidence - you will be surprised how much Mitspa's "gospel" is only a partial and corrupt presentation of God's revelation to mankind.

So bear with me, please. Mitspa, feel free to skip this post, you won't enjoy it...

The Catholic Church has something called "The Liturgy of the Hours". Clergy and some lay members, following Paul's exhortation to "pray always" have a devotion where a number of Psalms are read at different hours of the day. It basically is a four week cycle. One reads/prays several Psalms and will read it yet again in the following month, at the minimum.

Here is an example of what "we" read/prayed today in what is known as "Morning Prayer":

Psalm 43, Psalm 65, and a Canticle from Isaiah 38. Now, this is just a random day i have chosen, today, just to point out why it is so obvious, TO ME, that Mitspa's "gospel" is a sadly incomplete version of the Word of God. Imagine YOU reading the following, 12 times AT LEAST, a year. It becomes engrained within you, like the air you breath. And thus, "other gospels" become very foreign sounding to the overall Word of God, which, to Mitspa's great chagrin, INCLUDES the Psalms. And yes, James. But that is a subject for another post...

Psalm 43:

Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against those who are not merciful; O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man. 2For thou [art] the God of my strength; why dost thou cast me off? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? 3O send out thy light and thy truth; let them lead me; let them bring me unto the mountain of thy holiness and to thy tabernacles. 4Then I will enter in to the altar of God, unto the God [of] my exceeding joy; yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God. 5Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? Wait for God, for I shall yet praise him, [who is] the saving health of my countenance and my God

Canticle of Isaiah 38:10-14, 17-20

I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. 11I said, I shall not see the LORD, even the LORD, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. 12Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent: I have cut off like a weaver my life: he will cut me off with pining sickness: from day even to night wilt thou make an end of me. 13I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones: from day even to night wilt thou make an end of me. 14Like a crane or a swallow, so did I chatter: I did mourn as a dove: mine eyes fail with looking upward: O LORD, I am oppressed; undertake for me. Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. 20The LORD was ready to save me: therefore we will sing my songs to the stringed instruments all the days of our life in the house of the LORD.

Psalm 65

Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed. 2O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. 3Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. 4Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. 5By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea: 6Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power: 7Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people. 8They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens: thou makest the outgoings of the morning and evening to rejoice. 9Thou visitest the earth, and waterest it: thou greatly enrichest it with the river of God, which is full of water: thou preparest them corn, when thou hast so provided for it. 10Thou waterest the ridges thereof abundantly: thou settlest the furrows thereof: thou makest it soft with showers: thou blessest the springing thereof. 11Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness. 12They drop upon the pastures of the wilderness: and the little hills rejoice on every side. 13The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.


Now, WHO, after praying/reading these Psalms, especially the red portions, can think for one minute that Paul's discussion that "all men are evil, none seek out God" or "no one can keep God's Law" is ALL that the Bible says on the issue of justification or seeking God or the "need" to be "perfect"???

Clearly, Paul says such things, but if you read the Psalms he cites, you will find that the surface reading that Mitspa chooses fails. The red portions above PROVE that God puts aside sin, even Romans 3 tells us that. Paul HIMSELF tells us this, but Mitspa will not have it. No, Scriptures that we hear regularly are all mistaken. The twisted and confused portion of Scripture is all that matters, and the rest, just ignore...

If people TRULY hold the Scriptures dear, as most of my separated brothers and sisters in Christ claim, then they will seriously re-analyze the FACTS that Paul is only expressing ONE SIDE of Judaism. It is NOT the complete understanding. There is another side that is held in tension, one that James esp. addresses, what is known as Wisdom or Sapiential literature. The readings above, yes, they are Scripture. They show that God forgives sins. Even of imperfect law abiders.

WHERE IS THIS "NEED" TO BE ABSOLUTELY PERFECT???

Note also, men ARE INDEED seeking God in the above citations. We hear this practically every day.

So to those who feel they must continue to disregard Peter's warning against misunderstanding Paul's writings and the DESTRUCTION that this brings, I offer the above to contemplate. Whoever is ready to talk about this, feel free to do so, so that we can get a more true and complete version of God's revelation to mankind, not just a one-sided distorted view that ignores the Old Testament, Jesus and James.

Note carefully, there is no sign of "earning justification" in the above citations. They are the words of OT men seeking God through the Spirit of God's presence, Who blows where He wills. Paul notes this in Romans on several occasions, first in Romans 2 with pagans, and then with Romans 11 and the just remnant. Men who lived by faith, whether they had the Law or not. (the Law does not justify, faith does, and it existed since Abraham) But of course, if one ignores great swathes of Scriptures, this will fly right over their heads...

 

[Mitspa]

Sorry francis, i do not make the rules.
Those who go about to establish their own righteousness, by the law, have no submitted to Gods righteousness. These people God will destroy. First through sickness to warn them of the evil ways. And then is they do not repent God will destroy and condemn their souls.
Its like a man who has a bad left leg, swollen and full of puss. This leg causes him to stray from the paths of Gods righteouness. He is better off to cut that leg off than to allow it to cause his soul to be destroyed.
The Lord uses this same example that if ones eye or hand causes them to sin, they should get rid of it, for God will destroy the souls of them who reject His righteouness and go about to establish their own.

 

[John 8:32]

Well there are some who are spiritual and some who are carnal.
The spiritual know very well they are complete in Christ. The carnal are yet those who are subject to the flesh.

I think I'll take my chances with the carnal...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Apparently Paul won't be there, he said he was still carnal but the Law was spiritual. Perhaps you could show him the way.