The CURSE OF THE LAW

[francisdesales]

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

Repeating the same verses without any cohesive argument is not helpful.

 

[John 8:32]

Somehow grace has been construed to mean there is no Law and therefore no sin. Grace is the free, unearned, undeserved forgiveness for sinning against God, but it is predicated on repentance...

I just don't know or hear anyone that preaches that so I am surprised when I hear that is what is going on? I wish one person would give one example of one person or church that is saying that.
To me grace is unearned, unmerited favor from God to me. Jesus paid a dear price for me to be saved, the price was very steep.
I hear there is a law that is the Law of Love. I don't hear "we should go on sinning that grace should abound."
If there is no sin we have no need for grace at all. Where is that coming from? I don't hear that either. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong preachers to hear that and reading the wrong threads to hear that or maybe God has given me the grace to not hear that.

Apparently you haven't read through this thread. If there is no law, there is no sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

But there are those wh keep saying the Law is done away. If the Law is done away then there is no sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And if there is no sin, you are absolutely correct, there is no need for a Savior.

Gee thats exactly what John says in the next few verses? IN HIM WE HAVE NO SIN AND CANNOT SIN.

so the only ones who are unrighteous and lawless are those who are going about to establish their own righteousness by the written code of the law!

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Works quite well when you only quote a few verses but do not get the whole story...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now, is this a contradiction? No, but one has to understand the difference between being born of God and begotten of God...

Those who have the H.S. right now are BEGOTTEN of God...

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

There are two distinct categories here, born and begotten.

What does it mean to be born again? Quoting my favorite source...

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Is this what you are like? invisible? Everyone born of the Spirit is invisible, you cannot tell where it comes from or goes to.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If you think that you are born again, right about now would be a good time to take the old hat pin test.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This happens at the Last Trump. Here is another thought, those born into the family are like the angels...

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Right now we are begotten with the earnest (the down payment) of the Spirit...

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We will be born again by a resurrection (I Cor 15), but for the present, we are begotten. If one truly believes they do not sin, they are greater than Paul...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Notice this is not past tense here.

 

[Mitspa]

I am incomplete. So are you. We all are until we enter into heaven. The Greek does not suggest that the individual is a complete Christian just because they were baptized. Otherwise, WHY is Paul writing numerous letters to communities with PROBLEMS, Mitspa??? Why does he tell them they are as babes, children, immature? Why does he warn them - who needs to be warned if they are "complete" and "perfected"?

I realize your theology must pretend that you are full of the Spirit and "complete". John calls such people liars...



That doesn't mean one is complete - we are exhorted to follow Christ. Why the exhortation if one is perfect? I wouldn't NEED someone to write me a letter to tell me that...

Put these two sections of the scriptures together, and it will set you free from the foolishness of trying to keep the written code of the law.

I am not arguing for a return to the written code. Where are you getting that from? Is that your stock rejoinder when you cannot actually answer the person's actual argument?

Well there are some who are spiritual and some who are carnal.
The spiritual know very well they are complete in Christ. The carnal are yet those who are subject to the flesh.

I think I'll take my chances with the carnal...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Mitspa]

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

Repeating the same verses without any cohesive argument is not helpful.

I disagree, I think that the scriptures are very clear to those who are honest and want to see the truth. I think those who are blinded by the law and its curse, are not able to see the truth unless they learn to fear the Lord.
Rom 3:9-20

 

[Mitspa]

Phil 3 shows Paul had NO PROBLEM fulfilling the Law satisfactorily. Paul's argument concerning the Law does not rest on man's inability to fulfil it.

This is really a good scripture as to what Paul thought and believed about his righteousness and to me clearly explains "none are righteous, no not one". And that we must be more righteous than the Pharisees to obtain salvation.
Phil 3
as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Was Paul proud of his zealousness in persecuting the church? Yes, found blameless under the Law but then what does he say about this righteousness in the Law.....

count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law

I think he is saying that the righteousness he obtained in obeying the Law was a righteousness of his own doing. self-righteousness.

So when it says that "there are none righteous, no not one" this is speaking of the righteousness unto justification which cannot be obtained no matter how well one obeys the Law of Moses but is only obtained by receiving the righteousness available in Christ.

Yes a righteousness that exceeds the pharisees, GOD RIGHTEOUSNESS and Paul explains that his was as dung!
Also blamless is clearly by mans judgement not Gods! For it is very clear that the Lord found fault in Saul.

Also again I make the point Paul made in Php 3:17-19 That those who do not walk in Gods righteousness are ENEMYS OF THE CROSS. and whose end is destruction.

A point that Paul makes throughout his epistles that those who go about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted to Gods. Rom 2:4-5
Rom 2:21-24
Rom 3:18-21
Rom 7:7-11
Rom 10:3-4

etc...etc..

 

[francisdesales]

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

A person is "carnal" by how they act, not whether they declare "Lord, Lord, etc..." Even the devil has "faith". A person knows He has God's abiding presence BY the obedience to the commandments. That is the spiritual man. The one who obeys the Will of the Father.

 

[francisdesales]

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

Repeating the same verses without any cohesive argument is not helpful.

I disagree, I think that the scriptures are very clear to those who are honest and want to see the truth. I think those who are blinded by the law and its curse, are not able to see the truth unless they learn to fear the Lord.
Rom 3:9-20

Mitspa, I am being "honest" and I do want to see the truth. I have already agreed with you regarding living under the Law. I thought we had moved beyond that. My disagreement lies elsewhere with you. I would appreciate something other than your stock answers that do not address my points.

And while you cite me Romans 3, I will cite you Luke 1:5-6 and raise you a Phil 3:6-8. Out of Paul's mouth himself, he stated he fulfilled the Law blamelessly.

CLEARLY, Paul is not contradicting himself. Those who REALLY are honest will NOTE that contrast and attempt to discuss and reflect on why Paul says two different things here.

Merely tossing verses at me out of context is not helping the honest person find the solution to what the Bible AS A WHOLE states.

It appears that Paul has an Essene background. They stressed the anthropology of man and sin. Other aspects of Judaism (BELIEVE IT OR NOT, JUDAISM WAS NOT MONOLITHIC!) stress the human abiliity to do God's work, the so-called sapiential or wisdom teachings, such as Proverbs and Sirach, as noted by James. Bringing them together (Paul and James) is not such an easy task, and that is why I chastise you for your inability to discuss these things.

The honest person believes that the Scriptures, ALL of them, were God-breathed, not just the Pauline corpus (and only Romans and Galatians...)

 

[francisdesales]

Phil 3 shows Paul had NO PROBLEM fulfilling the Law satisfactorily. Paul's argument concerning the Law does not rest on man's inability to fulfil it.

This is really a good scripture as to what Paul thought and believed about his righteousness and to me clearly explains "none are righteous, no not one". And that we must be more righteous than the Pharisees to obtain salvation.
Phil 3
as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Was Paul proud of his zealousness in persecuting the church? Yes, found blameless under the Law but then what does he say about this righteousness in the Law.....

count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law

I think he is saying that the righteousness he obtained in obeying the Law was a righteousness of his own doing. self-righteousness.

So when it says that "there are none righteous, no not one" this is speaking of the righteousness unto justification which cannot be obtained no matter how well one obeys the Law of Moses but is only obtained by receiving the righteousness available in Christ.

Yes a righteousness that exceeds the pharisees, GOD RIGHTEOUSNESS and Paul explains that his was as dung!
Also blamless is clearly by mans judgement not Gods! For it is very clear that the Lord found fault in Saul.

Also again I make the point Paul made in Php 3:17-19 That those who do not walk in Gods righteousness are ENEMYS OF THE CROSS. and whose end is destruction.

A point that Paul makes throughout his epistles that those who go about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted to Gods. Rom 2:4-5
Rom 2:21-24
Rom 3:18-21
Rom 7:7-11
Rom 10:3-4

etc...etc..

You are again taking the Scriptural allusion (Mat 5:20) totally out of context. Jesus mentions nothing about the "righteousness of God" in the Sermon on the Mount! Jesus is teaching in the Jewish wisdom tradition, one that presumes that one CAN follow God's Law - of course, with God's grace - but nevertheless, the Law was THE point of departure for the Jews who desired to seek and please God from their hearts. Note CAREFULLY that Jesus explains the FULLER sense of the Law WITHOUT removing even one iota of it. In other words, he EXPECTS people to put forth the effort to obey the commandments to a more strict degree - one out of love for God and neighbor. For the one who loves, the burden is light.

This is a further example why, if you are honest, need to move beyond the "one horse show".

 

[Mitspa]

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

A person is "carnal" by how they act, not whether they declare "Lord, Lord, etc..." Even the devil has "faith". A person knows He has God's abiding presence BY the obedience to the commandments. That is the spiritual man. The one who obeys the Will of the Father.

Sorry "carnal" is the same as "fleshly" it means that a man walks in his natural condition and not by the Spirit of God.

The carnal mind "mind of flesh" is an enemy of God, no matter how religious they are. The pharisee is the example of those who attempt to serve God through the written code, and the flesh.
Paul at the time he was blamless and had a form of righteouness by the law, was "carnal" IN THE FLESH.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

A person is "carnal" by how they act, not whether they declare "Lord, Lord, etc..." Even the devil has "faith". A person knows He has God's abiding presence BY the obedience to the commandments. That is the spiritual man. The one who obeys the Will of the Father.

Sorry "carnal" is the same as "fleshly" it means that a man walks in his natural condition and not by the Spirit of God.

WE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH.
The carnal mind "mind of flesh" is an enemy of God, no matter how religious they are. The pharisee is the example of those who attempt to serve God through the written code, and the flesh.
Paul at the time he was blamless and had a form of righteouness by the law, was "carnal" IN THE FLESH.

 

[Mitspa]

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

Repeating the same verses without any cohesive argument is not helpful.

I disagree, I think that the scriptures are very clear to those who are honest and want to see the truth. I think those who are blinded by the law and its curse, are not able to see the truth unless they learn to fear the Lord.
Rom 3:9-20

Mitspa, I am being "honest" and I do want to see the truth. I have already agreed with you regarding living under the Law. I thought we had moved beyond that. My disagreement lies elsewhere with you. I would appreciate something other than your stock answers that do not address my points.

And while you cite me Romans 3, I will cite you Luke 1:5-6 and raise you a Phil 3:6-8. Out of Paul's mouth himself, he stated he fulfilled the Law blamelessly.

CLEARLY, Paul is not contradicting himself. Those who REALLY are honest will NOTE that contrast and attempt to discuss and reflect on why Paul says two different things here.

Merely tossing verses at me out of context is not helping the honest person find the solution to what the Bible AS A WHOLE states.

It appears that Paul has an Essene background. They stressed the anthropology of man and sin. Other aspects of Judaism (BELIEVE IT OR NOT, JUDAISM WAS NOT MONOLITHIC!) stress the human abiliity to do God's work, the so-called sapiential or wisdom teachings, such as Proverbs and Sirach, as noted by James. Bringing them together (Paul and James) is not such an easy task, and that is why I chastise you for your inability to discuss these things.

The honest person believes that the Scriptures, ALL of them, were God-breathed, not just the Pauline corpus (and only Romans and Galatians...)

this is a common thing to understand, those who where under the law (all the law) had a form of godliness and righteousness by the law. This was before the Cross. Now through the gospel of Jesus Christ GOD RIGHTEOUNESS is revealed.
Now those who reject Gods righteouness and go about to establish their own, by the law. Are under judgment and the curse of the law.

Worse that that are those who have known the "way of righteousness" and have turn back to the written code to work their own righteousness. It would have better for them to have never known Gods righteousness than to have known it and turned from the Holy Commandment.

And as far as your desire to seek the truth? I have seen no evidence that you are willing to submit to the clear and evident truth of the scriptures. If would unbiblical of me to grant humility unto those who have shown no humility. No I will become a servant to the humble, I will be a strong tower and unmoving wall, to those who are in pride. Those who practise righteousness are righteous.

 

[Mitspa]

Look I do not think Paul wrote ONE WORD apart from the intention of the Holy Spirit. I believe the the scriptures mean what they say, and say what they mean.

As far as feeling I need to prove anything to you? I do not!
Read my post above! For I have given the truth of Gods Word in clear and evident terms.

Mitspa,

The more I have read about Paul and the Law, the more I believe you are incorrect regarding the "unfulfillability" of the Law that you claim that Paul has...

Phil 3 shows Paul had NO PROBLEM fulfilling the Law satisfactorily. Paul's argument concerning the Law does not rest on man's inability to fulfil it.

Perhaps you will cite Romans 7. There is no evidence that this was Paul's state of mind WHEN HE WAS A ZEALOUS JEW! Paul contrasts the life in Christ with his past life under the Law. Looking at the Law through a Christian's eyes does not mean that Paul experienced frustration with the Law before his own conversion.

I believe that your understanding of what the Law does in the JEW'S mind is deficient. In addition, it is clear to me that you are ignoring the obvious - that God had established a system to return the individual who had fallen back to the grace of God and the community. You seem to totally ignore that, as well.

Thus, your idea that one must fulfill each and every iota of the Law to be just in God's eyes are simply false. "All seemed rubbish" because of what Paul had experienced through Christ. Once one experienced Christ, there was no reason to return to the Law, but it is more of a "better than" argument, not the argument that you continue to make that has Paul indecisively calling the Law "holy" and regarding zeal for the Law in a positive light versus Paul calling the Law evil and the cause of sin...

Because of such contradictory teachings that you continue to present and refuse to address, one must consider your gospel as incomplete and corrupt.

Not sure of your point? Because Paul makes it very clear in Php 3:8-9 That the righteousness he attain through keeping the law (ALL THE LAW) is not the righteousness of God, and cannot be compared. He goes on to say that those who do not walk in Gods righteouness, as he did, will be destroyed Php 3:17-19

So here we have the same warning as in 2 Pet 2:21-22
FOR IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE "WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

So again, I am not sure of what point you are trying to make?
There was a "form" of righteousness that one could attain by keeping ALL THE LAW. but now the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD has been revealed from heaven. Those who do not heed His Righteousness will be destroyed Php 3:19

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

We see that the Lord rejected the hypocricy of the pharisees in absolute terms. Do not be deceived, God no more accepts hypocricy in those who call themselves "christians" than He did in the pharisee. None of those who claim to "uphold" the law, keep the law. They in fact "break" the law from its true standard "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" into some mixed bag of things they think they can fulfill in the ability of there own flesh.
I say this with all confidence that none of them keep even the first commandment! Mar 12:30

Because men are dishonest in their natural condition, when they here the term "all" they do not think "all" means "all".
YE SHALL LOVE THE LORD WITH "ALL" THY SOUL AND "ALL" THY MIND AND WITH "ALL" THY STRENGTH.

So you see that none keep the law of moses! and all who attempt to keep the written code are cursed by the law.

FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT "GIVES" LIFE.

i wonder why so many are sick in the chrurch? It is because they are cursed by the law.
For the Lord has cast them into a sickbed, that they should be repent of their hypocricy.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

A person is "carnal" by how they act, not whether they declare "Lord, Lord, etc..." Even the devil has "faith". A person knows He has God's abiding presence BY the obedience to the commandments. That is the spiritual man. The one who obeys the Will of the Father.

Sorry "carnal" is the same as "fleshly" it means that a man walks in his natural condition and not by the Spirit of God.

The carnal mind "mind of flesh" is an enemy of God, no matter how religious they are. The pharisee is the example of those who attempt to serve God through the written code, and the flesh.
Paul at the time he was blamless and had a form of righteouness by the law, was "carnal" IN THE FLESH.

I agree, "carnal" is one's walk that is counter to God's will. Even the "saints" at times were carnal - that is why Paul writes to them (esp the Corinthians and Galatians).

Walking blamelessly in God's commandments is not "carnal", Mitspa. The works of the flesh are antithesis to God's commandments. By definition, walking blamelessly is not carnal!!!:yes

 

[francisdesales]

I disagree, I think that the scriptures are very clear to those who are honest and want to see the truth. I think those who are blinded by the law and its curse, are not able to see the truth unless they learn to fear the Lord.
Rom 3:9-20

Mitspa, I am being "honest" and I do want to see the truth. I have already agreed with you regarding living under the Law. I thought we had moved beyond that. My disagreement lies elsewhere with you. I would appreciate something other than your stock answers that do not address my points.

And while you cite me Romans 3, I will cite you Luke 1:5-6 and raise you a Phil 3:6-8. Out of Paul's mouth himself, he stated he fulfilled the Law blamelessly.

CLEARLY, Paul is not contradicting himself. Those who REALLY are honest will NOTE that contrast and attempt to discuss and reflect on why Paul says two different things here.

Merely tossing verses at me out of context is not helping the honest person find the solution to what the Bible AS A WHOLE states.

It appears that Paul has an Essene background. They stressed the anthropology of man and sin. Other aspects of Judaism (BELIEVE IT OR NOT, JUDAISM WAS NOT MONOLITHIC!) stress the human abiliity to do God's work, the so-called sapiential or wisdom teachings, such as Proverbs and Sirach, as noted by James. Bringing them together (Paul and James) is not such an easy task, and that is why I chastise you for your inability to discuss these things.

The honest person believes that the Scriptures, ALL of them, were God-breathed, not just the Pauline corpus (and only Romans and Galatians...)

this is a common thing to understand, those who where under the law (all the law) had a form of godliness and righteousness by the law. This was before the Cross. Now through the gospel of Jesus Christ GOD RIGHTEOUNESS is revealed.
Now those who reject Gods righteouness and go about to establish their own, by the law. Are under judgment and the curse of the law.

Agreed.

Worse that that are those who have known the "way of righteousness" and have turn back to the written code

If you are alluding to 2 Peter 2:20-22, please read the passage more carefully. It is not about returning to the written code. Quite the contrary, it is about antinomianism. Having the freedom from the Law - to sin. Peter is speaking about returning to a life of sin, not to the written code.

Everything is not "written code" v "Law of Christ" in the Sacred Scriptures. That is only one aspect, strictly Pauline, by the way. No one else seems too concerned with this theme.

to work their own righteousness. It would have better for them to have never known Gods righteousness than to have known it and turned from the Holy Commandment.

Turning FROM the Holy Commandments (Romans 7) is not a turning TO the written code!!!! Turning from the holy commandments equals murder, adultery, lying, stealing, etc.

And as far as your desire to seek the truth? I have seen no evidence that you are willing to submit to the clear and evident truth of the scriptures.

Your arrogance is unbecoming of someone who claims to be a Christian teacher. Furthermore, your debate ability is poor because you refuse to engage in the arguments that you don't like or want to talk about. This in of itself speaks of your "search for the truth". So don't be a hypocrite. If you were searching for the truth, you would look BEYOND the few verses of Paul that you seem to quote at every post in your self-righteousness.


I will keep you in my prayers that the Lord opens your mind to examining the REST of the Bible, you know, the parts OTHER than Romans and Galatians...

Like the words of James, John, Peter and Jesus Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes it seems you have made that choice? But those who are "carnal" in the flesh, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

A person is "carnal" by how they act, not whether they declare "Lord, Lord, etc..." Even the devil has "faith". A person knows He has God's abiding presence BY the obedience to the commandments. That is the spiritual man. The one who obeys the Will of the Father.

Sorry "carnal" is the same as "fleshly" it means that a man walks in his natural condition and not by the Spirit of God.

The carnal mind "mind of flesh" is an enemy of God, no matter how religious they are. The pharisee is the example of those who attempt to serve God through the written code, and the flesh.
Paul at the time he was blamless and had a form of righteouness by the law, was "carnal" IN THE FLESH.

I agree, "carnal" is one's walk that is counter to God's will. Even the "saints" at times were carnal - that is why Paul writes to them (esp the Corinthians and Galatians).

Walking blamelessly in God's commandments is not "carnal", Mitspa. The works of the flesh are antithesis to God's commandments. By definition, walking blamelessly is not carnal!!!:yes

Well Paul says that it is DUNG. if dung is not carnal then I dont know if you understand the term?
The fact that Christ has revealed Gods Righteousness, and that a man might think that he can about to establish his own righteousness by the law, is in fact a rejection of Christ and is very carnal.
Paul himself admits that he was carnal, in his attempts to keep the law. Although he was blamless before man, by mans carnal standards. He was not at all blamless before God.

Read Rom 7 It is clear that those who attempt to keep the written code are in the flesh and are carnal.

 

[francisdesales]

Not sure of your point? Because Paul makes it very clear in Php 3:8-9 That the righteousness he attain through keeping the law (ALL THE LAW) is not the righteousness of God, and cannot be compared. He goes on to say that those who do not walk in Gods righteouness, as he did, will be destroyed Php 3:17-19

So here we have the same warning as in 2 Pet 2:21-22
FOR IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE "WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

So again, I am not sure of what point you are trying to make?
There was a "form" of righteousness that one could attain by keeping ALL THE LAW. but now the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD has been revealed from heaven. Those who do not heed His Righteousness will be destroyed Php 3:19

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

We see that the Lord rejected the hypocricy of the pharisees in absolute terms. Do not be deceived, God no more accepts hypocricy in those who call themselves "christians" than He did in the pharisee. None of those who claim to "uphold" the law, keep the law. They in fact "break" the law from its true standard "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" into some mixed bag of things they think they can fulfill in the ability of there own flesh.
I say this with all confidence that none of them keep even the first commandment! Mar 12:30

Because men are dishonest in their natural condition, when they here the term "all" they do not think "all" means "all".
YE SHALL LOVE THE LORD WITH "ALL" THY SOUL AND "ALL" THY MIND AND WITH "ALL" THY STRENGTH.

So you see that none keep the law of moses! and all who attempt to keep the written code are cursed by the law.

FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT "GIVES" LIFE.

i wonder why so many are sick in the chrurch? It is because they are cursed by the law.
For the Lord has cast them into a sickbed, that they should be repent of their hypocricy.

Another rant that again ignores the Bible as a whole entity.

Nowhere do we find a passage in the OT about one MUST obey every part of the Law or be condemned. The Jews seem blissfully UNAWARE of this rule you invented and cannot cite.

A rant that ignores that the Jews had a sacrificial cult that enabled sins and transgressions to be forgiven. Given to them by God. Mitspa claims God is a trickster, apparently. Has Mitspa even read the Psalms? Psalm 51 maybe? Has he even heard of sin offerings and Yom Kippur? Probably not, because Paul rarely mentions them, and that is the extent of Mitspa's Bible reading.

A rant that continues to ignore that out of PAUL'S OWN MOUTH, he HIMSELF was blameless in the Law, further destroying Mitspa's theme that no one can obey the Law...

So Mitspa must attack other people who bring ridicule on his "theology", since the message cannot stand alone. He must attack the interlocutor.​

Sadly, Mitspa, you preach a corrupt gospel and don't have the humility to admit it. I have pointed out the shortcomings of it, they are obvious. Why won't you admit this? Pretending they are not there doesn't make them go away.

The forum can see why... Your words about hypocrisy are quite ironic.

 

[Mitspa]

Agreed.

Worse that that are those who have known the "way of righteousness" and have turn back to the written code

If you are alluding to 2 Peter 2:20-22, please read the passage more carefully. It is not about returning to the written code. Quite the contrary, it is about antinomianism. Having the freedom from the Law - to sin. Peter is speaking about returning to a life of sin, not to the written code.

Everything is not "written code" v "Law of Christ" in the Sacred Scriptures. That is only one aspect, strictly Pauline, by the way. No one else seems too concerned with this theme.

to work their own righteousness. It would have better for them to have never known Gods righteousness than to have known it and turned from the Holy Commandment.

Turning FROM the Holy Commandments (Romans 7) is not a turning TO the written code!!!! Turning from the holy commandments equals murder, adultery, lying, stealing, etc.

And as far as your desire to seek the truth? I have seen no evidence that you are willing to submit to the clear and evident truth of the scriptures.

Your arrogance is unbecoming of someone who claims to be a Christian teacher. Furthermore, your debate ability is poor because you refuse to engage in the arguments that you don't like or want to talk about. This in of itself speaks of your "search for the truth". So don't be a hypocrite. If you were searching for the truth, you would look BEYOND the few verses of Paul that you seem to quote at every post in your self-righteousness.


I will keep you in my prayers that the Lord opens your mind to examining the REST of the Bible, you know, the parts OTHER than Romans and Galatians...

Like the words of James, John, Peter and Jesus Christ.

The points I have made are clear and evident, they cannot be challeged except by personal insults and the like.

It is EVIDENT tha no man can be justified by the law,
That the law is not of faith.
The strength of sin, is the law.
That Christ is the end of the law for righteouness.
That those who are under the law are under the curse of the law.
Rom 7:7-8
2 Cor 3:6-15

These things are written in clear words and cannot and have not been challenged .

 

[Mitspa]

Not sure of your point? Because Paul makes it very clear in Php 3:8-9 That the righteousness he attain through keeping the law (ALL THE LAW) is not the righteousness of God, and cannot be compared. He goes on to say that those who do not walk in Gods righteouness, as he did, will be destroyed Php 3:17-19

So here we have the same warning as in 2 Pet 2:21-22
FOR IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE "WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

So again, I am not sure of what point you are trying to make?
There was a "form" of righteousness that one could attain by keeping ALL THE LAW. but now the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD has been revealed from heaven. Those who do not heed His Righteousness will be destroyed Php 3:19

I think some has missed the whole point of Pauls words here in Php 3:17-19 Those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the written code of the law, will be DESTROYED.
just as 2 Pet 2:21-22 says, They have rejected the "way of righteousness" GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. and are "cursed children" FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.
for they are like dogs that return to its vomit and sows that desire to roll around in their own sins.
FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:7-8

We see that the Lord rejected the hypocricy of the pharisees in absolute terms. Do not be deceived, God no more accepts hypocricy in those who call themselves "christians" than He did in the pharisee. None of those who claim to "uphold" the law, keep the law. They in fact "break" the law from its true standard "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" into some mixed bag of things they think they can fulfill in the ability of there own flesh.
I say this with all confidence that none of them keep even the first commandment! Mar 12:30

Because men are dishonest in their natural condition, when they here the term "all" they do not think "all" means "all".
YE SHALL LOVE THE LORD WITH "ALL" THY SOUL AND "ALL" THY MIND AND WITH "ALL" THY STRENGTH.

So you see that none keep the law of moses! and all who attempt to keep the written code are cursed by the law.

FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT "GIVES" LIFE.

i wonder why so many are sick in the chrurch? It is because they are cursed by the law.
For the Lord has cast them into a sickbed, that they should be repent of their hypocricy.

Another rant that again ignores the Bible as a whole entity.

Nowhere do we find a passage in the OT about one MUST obey every part of the Law or be condemned. The Jews seem blissfully UNAWARE of this rule you invented and cannot cite.

A rant that ignores that the Jews had a sacrificial cult that enabled sins and transgressions to be forgiven. Given to them by God. Mitspa claims God is a trickster, apparently. Has Mitspa even read the Psalms? Psalm 51 maybe? Has he even heard of sin offerings and Yom Kippur? Probably not, because Paul rarely mentions them, and that is the extent of Mitspa's Bible reading.

A rant that continues to ignore that out of PAUL'S OWN MOUTH, he HIMSELF was blameless in the Law, further destroying Mitspa's theme that no one can obey the Law...

So Mitspa must attack other people who bring ridicule on his "theology", since the message cannot stand alone. He must attack the interlocutor.​

Sadly, Mitspa, you preach a corrupt gospel and don't have the humility to admit it. I have pointed out the shortcomings of it, they are obvious. Why won't you admit this? Pretending they are not there doesn't make them go away.

The forum can see why... Your words about hypocrisy are quite ironic.

Jesus said EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.
the law itself says "CURSED ARE THOSE who continue not IN "ALL THINGS" WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, to do them.

SO ALL MEANS ALL!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He was pointing out to them that if they did not love then even the Law of Moses would convict them because this law was there also.

Bingo! That's the same as being judged by the law.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

He clearly says they are going to be judged by the law of liberty, if that is what they choose. For mercy triumphs over judgment. No I know you will say that he was saying only if they obey the law of liberty otherwise they will be judged by the law of Moses. So what is the law of liberty? If it is different than the Law of Moses, how? James clearly says it is.

Now you seem to be in disagreement with what you just said above. Explain.

When we don't love, does the law of Moses convict us believers of wrong doing, or not? Not judge us in regard to eternal salvation, but in regard to if we're in the wrong, or not?

This is just my understanding, I respect you have your own. The Lord lets us choose. I choose grace, I don't think I'll make it to perfection, in the flesh, before I leave the world.

What I don't get is how you think that the perfection we're all aiming for isn't somehow the fulfillment of the Law of Moses (and then some), and how you can think it's a curse to even think about the Law of Moses.

As Romans 7 teaches us, husband 'flesh' died, therefore, the law no longer has the authority, like a marriage license, to demand your obedience to ex-husband 'flesh'. But you, and a lot of other folk in the church, think that the command can still keep you bound to the sin the commandment prohibits. And because you think that, you think Paul is saying the law is to be cast aside and not even acknowledged. I challenge you to thoughtfully reread and reread the first part of Romans 7 and you will see the law can NOT keep you bound in your sin anymore.

Don't listen to anybody that says you're still bound to sinful flesh through the law! Husband flesh is dead. That being true, you are no longer under the authority of the law to keep you bound in sin to husband flesh. What you are now is free to remarry Christ, and by the authority of the Spirit to now KEEP the law of Moses ('do not covet', 'do not steal', etc.).

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry "carnal" is the same as "fleshly" it means that a man walks in his natural condition and not by the Spirit of God.

The carnal mind "mind of flesh" is an enemy of God, no matter how religious they are. The pharisee is the example of those who attempt to serve God through the written code, and the flesh.
Paul at the time he was blamless and had a form of righteouness by the law, was "carnal" IN THE FLESH.

I agree, "carnal" is one's walk that is counter to God's will. Even the "saints" at times were carnal - that is why Paul writes to them (esp the Corinthians and Galatians).

Walking blamelessly in God's commandments is not "carnal", Mitspa. The works of the flesh are antithesis to God's commandments. By definition, walking blamelessly is not carnal!!!:yes

Well Paul says that it is DUNG. if dung is not carnal then I dont know if you understand the term?

Are you aware of Biblical interpretation? It seems not.

It is unlikely that Paul is stating that the Law is dung when he calls the Law holy. Is Paul this confused in your mind, that he calls something holy and from God "dung"?

OR does Paul have another reason for using polemic language? It seems that Paul is speaking polemically, and isn't to be taken literally. What he is saying is that faith in Christ makes his previous law keeping AS IF it was worthless. That was his PERSONAL experience.

The fact that Christ has revealed Gods Righteousness, and that a man might think that he can about to establish his own righteousness by the law, is in fact a rejection of Christ and is very carnal.

Paul himself admits that he was carnal, in his attempts to keep the law.

where?

Although he was blamless before man, by mans carnal standards. He was not at all blamless before God.

Read Rom 7 It is clear that those who attempt to keep the written code are in the flesh and are carnal.

Paul shows no indication that he thought that he was carnal or in the flesh before his experience of Christ. His new experience in Christ makes his past life that much less. Are you familiar with the argument of "from the lesser to the greater"? It is common rhetoric.