The Diety of Christ/Jesus is God: An Approach for Skeptics

[Free]

A PURE indication if not outright STATEMENT that Christ WAS 'created' at SOME time PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of mankind.

I have shown this to be false with the Greek (and English for that matter).

And I DO NOT 'believe' that this would in ANY way 'take away' from the diety of Christ.

Again, if Christ is created he cannot be deity.

 

[mutzrein]

Ok,

That was 'sort of' an answer to two of the three questions. Now how about the 'third':

Was Christ a 'created entity'? Was there a 'time' BEFORE Christ. Does the 'title Son' indicate that Christ BECAME a 'part of the family of God'? Hence, Father begetting Son?

And you can rest assured that this is NOT being asked to 'trick' you or any such thing. I am simply curious as to whether I am the ONLY person on this forum that has interpreted the Bible SAYING that there was God FIRST and THEN Christ. A PURE indication if not outright STATEMENT that Christ WAS 'created' at SOME time PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of mankind.

And I DO NOT 'believe' that this would in ANY way 'take away' from the diety of Christ. It would simply be a 'denial' of what the CC created in IT's beliefs and practices concerning Christ.

MEC

Hey MEC - what is it in scripture that would indicate TO YOU that Christ is created? Purely the fact that it speaks of him being the only begotten son? Or is there something else?

 

[wavy]

I have shown this to be false with the Greek (and English for that matter).

to what are you referring?

Again, if Christ is created he cannot be deity.

and where is that said?


~eric

 

[Free]

to what are you referring?

To several past discussions I've had with Imagican regarding John 1.

and where is that said?

Perhaps I should have first asked Imagican to precisely define deity, which I will ask for now. I will reply once Imagican's definition of deity is clearly laid out and understood.

 

[cyberjosh]

For the record I will repost what I said to MEC on the first page about the idea of divinity, and how I meant it:

Respectfully I must say I expected such a statement as this, in that I knew those who do not believe Jesus is God have a funny concept of "diety" as meaning something other than God. They must think it means "spiritual being" or something like an angel, or some wierd conception of a lesser god, but to clarify exactly what I meant I made it a sure thing to put in the title "Jesus is God" because I knew someone would put a twist on their idea of the "divinity" of Christ. I mean divinity in the way it was meant to be used: as being God. Jesus is God, and I do believe if I am not mistaken that you do question that. If Jesus is God and the Father is God then there must be an equality, unless you fall off the other end and believe like some early heretics that Jesus alone is God and that the Father was some mockery god of the OT

 

[Devekut]

I agree cybershark. Anything created, anything with a beginning, is, by its very nature, not divine.

I think the Israelite religion labored for centuries to understand this. God was not one among others, not even the greatest among many, but that, as the LORD revealed to us in Isaiah:

"I am God, there is no other".

Are there multitudes of spiritual beings with powers greater than human beings? Certainly, and in the past they have been mistaken for gods.

Divinity is the source of life. All spiritual powers, and infact, all biological life, are living by grace what God himself is by nature. I think this distinction between what belongs to a thing by grace and what belongs to a thing by nature is the ultimate criteria for defining exactly what God is. His nature is what sustains Him, His grace is what sustains creation.

He sustains all things with his own breath. For "in Him we live and move and have our being". He himself "gives all men life and breath and everything else"

What is created can not possibly be divine, as I think the Bible ultimately testifies to man's and the world's created quality as the ultimate point of distinction between the world and God. What is created belongs to the world, what is not then belongs to nothing less than the substance of God.

And of course, it is not creation (or anything created) in which our hope and salvation lies.

 

[Vic C.]

OK, this topic is back online. Lets try and keep it civil and within the parameters of our ToS.

Thanks

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Vic. Unfortunately school has really been demanding of me lately, and hasn't let up. Maybe sometime I can get back to this in detail. It's just that it takes so much time to consider and respond, and as anyone can see I've already posted alot here and put alot in to it. I however do not see some people's conceptions of Jesus changing, no matter how much we talk about it. I think it is one's overall conception of Jesus that molds the individual considerations that we discuss, and thus this also sometimes involved the idea of the Trinity and other such things. But what I really was hoping to get across here that Jesus is indeed God and that none of us should bother denying it when the testimony of Scripture seems so clear. I'm sorry I have not been able to address the issue of Jesus' subordination to the Father in more detail, but as I have stated before, a little here and a little there, I have mentioned that this subordination is a role and makes Jesus no less equal to the Father. Jesus also had a specific mission, not a mission of exaltation (though we see a glimmer of His glory in the Transfiguration), on earth that required His submissive role, which He now is not under the same immediate directive of. The Son will always honor the Father, and He calls His Father God (and I argue vice versa Hebrews 1:8, for the record) - and indeed will even deliver up the kingdom to His Father (as 1 Corinthians says), but Christ now has that former glory which He set aside and emptied Himself of to submit Himself to the Father's will to die for our sins, which he has now completed once and for all, and has taken His rightful place of glory while still ministering to God the Father for us as High Priest. The role of subordination is an equality in submission, best seen IMO in the Trinity. But Trinity or not, I do see Jesus as God and the testimony of Scripture in no way diminshing that idea. I just wanted to give my basic convictions here, and not persuasive arguements only in this matter, since Paul similarly said that he came not in word only (and not with persuasive arguement, even) but in conviction and power of God's word (in word and power).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

Have you ever noticed that scripture does not speak about Jesus being equal TO God? So why do people persist is stating that He is?

 

[cyberjosh]

Mutz,

As you will see in my OP I do not believe that the Bible is devoid of such an idea. Some such points are not immediately straight forward, but not all things in the Bible are. You should see fairly easily in my OP the instances in the Gospels I gave where the idea of Jesus' equality with God come in to play. Then I also gave some examples outside the Gospels. I promise, I have atleast covered that in this thread so far. So please address (with quotes preferably) the points in the OP if you haven't (primarily #1 which I enumerated), if indeed you want to continue to talk about that particular idea.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If it helps Mutz, the relevant area of my points on that issue you just raised are actually in both the OP and it carries on to the next post (since it was getting too long, and I had to break it apart) all the way down to th where I drew the dividing line below where I said, "John offers it to us plain, but are you simple enough of faith to recieve it as given?", which also acts as a convenient summary to everything I had been building up to on Jesus' equality with God. Just wanted to point out to you the areas where you will need to read if you want to see where I already dealt with this. I would enjoy a reply from you.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[GraceBwithU]

Have you ever noticed that scripture does not speak about Jesus being equal TO God? So why do people persist is stating that He is?

Wrong...wrong...wrong!

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV

Word=God

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Word=Jesus

Jesus=God

Simple...enough said.


John 10:30-31
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
KJV
:wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

GraceBwithU,

Although I appreciate your efforts, if that arguement would have sufficed for those who think otherwise, this thread would not even exist. The long slow, painful approach is imminent, and currently undergoing. ;) That's why you see such bulky posts around here. Just giving you a heads up, because short arguements like that are almost non-constructive (to no fault of your own). One could call it due to a thick skull syndrome among an "unnamed" party. ;) 'Nough said, let the long grueling process continue to drudge on.... :p

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[GraceBwithU]

GraceBwithU,

Although I appreciate your efforts, if that arguement would have sufficed for those who think otherwise, this thread would not even exist. The long slow, painful approach is imminent, and currently undergoing. ;) That's why you see such bulky posts around here. Just giving you a heads up, because short arguements like that are almost non-constructive (to no fault of your own). One could call it due to a thick skull syndrome among an "unnamed" party. ;) 'Nough said, let the long grueling process continue to drudge on.... :p

God Bless,

~Josh

I'm not sure what you are really trying to say here.

Some just like to argue. Some of the most profound statements in history are said in only a few words.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
KJV

Matt 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I responded to a simple question...no need for much speaking. I'm sorry if I did not drag it out enough for you. Perhaps you flunked algebra. :wink:

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope, grace.

 

[mutzrein]

Have you ever noticed that scripture does not speak about Jesus being equal TO God? So why do people persist is stating that He is?

Wrong...wrong...wrong!

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV

Word=God

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Word=Jesus

Jesus=God

Simple...enough said.


John 10:30-31
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
KJV
:wink:

Actually Grace I am referring to the scripture that speaks of Jesus’ equality WITH God, which many misquote as Jesus being equal TO God. There is a difference.

Now as far as your quoting of John is concerned, would you like to talk about what you deem ‘simple’ or deal with the equality aspect first?

 

[GraceBwithU]

mutz,
It is simple....
Why make it complicated? The scriptures I quoted plainly state what you reject. I have no reason to argue with you about something as simple as this.
If you have a problem with this very simple truth then you just plain need to pray more.

If you will notice most of my response was scripture. I said very little.
The scripture answers your question. But if you wish to ignore it then that is ok. I'm at peace.

 

[mutzrein]

mutz,
It is simple....
Why make it complicated? The scriptures I quoted plainly state what you reject. I have no reason to argue with you about something as simple as this.
If you have a problem with this very simple truth then you just plain need to pray more.

If you will notice most of my response was scripture. I said very little.
The scripture answers your question. But if you wish to ignore it then that is ok. I'm at peace.

Hey, I don’t have any problem with scripture. And it’s not complicated. It’s just the interpretation that you place on it.

And why would I want to pray more? So that I could be right, right, right like you. No my friend. I think not.

 

[Rick W]

Why can't God's Word become flesh and still be God?
Why do we have such a problem with accepting something that we don't see happening on our side of the universe?
Christ said He is the resurrection. How can he be an event? How can He be something that hadn't happened yet? He didn't say, "I will be the resurrection.". No, He said he was, present tense.
Christ said He is the way. How can He make that claim when He hadn't yet been glorified? He said He is the truth yet what He spoke to believe on Him because He speaks the truth hadn't yet been ratified on the cross. He makes all these claims, He is, not will be, but is.


We see in Genesis, "God said let there be light." And again, "God said..." and again, "God said..." and again and again all through God's will of creation. And it was done. And it was good. Yet, later in scripture concerning Christ we see "without Him nothing was made". Without Him? Sure, without God's Word in Genesis nothing was made. Without His intent, His will, nothing could be made. It was the will of the Father, His Word, His power of purpose, His power of creation.
Can God's Word not be God? Can His purpose, His intent, His will not be Him? And if God's intent of purpose is made flesh then is that not God? Can I separate from me what I say and declare it's not me? My word won't be made flesh but scripture tells us that His was. What I will, my intent, my purpose toward an end is me. It's of me, it's the sole essense of me. It is me.
That's why Christ said he couldn't say anything else but what the Father showed Him. No kidding. What I say, what I intend can do nothing else but what I will. Yet, that conscientious design, that will, is me, it's my very being, my constitution, my soul, my nature. And it is very much in submission to me. That doesn't make it any less me. How can it?
The Word became flesh. Who's Word? God's Word.

 

[cyberjosh]

Mutz,

Since you brought it up first, will you be looking at the points which I directed you toward in my OP to discuss this distinction you make between equality with vs. to God? Because I would like to see ground already laid (like in the OP for example) to be covered first before we take up a "fresh" line of discussion. That would help with both the length of this thread, and also would be good for not going in circles.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[Devekut]

Good post Potluck,

There seems to be a hostility to both mystery and reason! The hostility to the Trinitarian mystery which no person can ever fathom in fullness, and to the rationality that directs our eyes to this mystery.

The Trinity, like a brilliant Saharan sun, can not be glared at dead on. We must look down, shield ourselves from overwhelming light, but we continue to percieve its glory.

I think the posters must ask themselves here, is Christ God by nature? That is, does his divinity belong to him, or was it given to him by grace (on which case you have become Arians).

Then we must ask, how can we be saved by creation?


If Christ is God by nature, then Christ must be equal to the Father, for two persons in the same nature, of their own nature, can not be unequal. Much like how all human beings share equality in nature, but not in activity.