The "End Times"

[Dorothy Mae]

Edward If you think that Daniel supports your dispensational assertions, then don't just say "look at Daniel" and "7, 8, and 9". Quote specific verses and expound upon them, showing how they support your assertions, and then defend your view. That seems reasonable, right?

Daniel is a second-century forgery that claims to prophecy certain events that we can trace directly in history. 7:4 represents Babylon. 7:5 the Medo-Persians. 7:6 Alexander the Great. 7:7 possibly the Roman empire. 7:8 to Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

8:3 is the Medo-Persian empire, and the longer horn being Persia. The male goat is Alexander. 8:8 is the division of Alexander's kingdom into four parts., once again, 8:9-10 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Chapter 9 speaks of the exile. 9:2's "seventy years" extends from 605 B.C. to either 538 B.C. (first return of the exiles) or 515 (rebuilding of the temple completion). The seventy weeks extends from 605 B.C. to 164 B.C., with Judas Maccabeus cleansing the temple and the death of Antiochus. 9:26-27 is not a reference to Jesus but rather to Antiochus.

Chapter 11 is remarkable, so detailed that it must have been written after the fact. To quote it:

• 11:2 - fourth king is Xerxes, invaded Greece but defeated at the battle of Salamis
• 11:3 - mighty king is Alexander
• 11:4 - division of Alexander's kingdom
• 11:5 - king of the south is Ptolemy I Soter. North is Seleucus I Nicator. One of the other generals is Antigonus I Monophthalmus. Seleucus fled to Ptolemy and became his servant "one of his princes", but Antigonus was defeated, and Seleucus took power, winning over Ptolemy
• 11:6 - marriage alliance between Ptolemy II Philadelphus and Antiochus II Theos with the girl Berenice. As supposedly prophesied, Antiochus II and Berenice died (of poison).

I'll need to expound on the rest later (no time right now), but my point is that Daniel refers to events long past, and does not support a dispensational view.

Jesus called Daniel “a prophet” and since he knew all the events you speak of, his evaluation is superior to yours or the men you quote. If Jesus says Daniel wrote of future events, then we can trust he did. Sorry but Jesus is superior in knowledge.

Better add “but I respect you and understand your position.” I should make that a “permanent footnote.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

T. E. Smith, I agree that Ed needs to present those scriptures he thinks supports his position that in the “Tribulation” the Jews will repent, but since you think Daniel all bunk, that needed to be addressed first.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation and the Old Testament - Apologetics Press

Can you imagine what life without the Old Testament would be like for a Christian? Although the commands in the New Testament still could be obeyed without the Old Testament, our knowledge would be incomplete. We would be unable to appreciate fully the passages in the New Testament that speak of...

apologeticspress.org

 

[T. E. Smith]

T. E. Smith, I agree that Ed needs to present those scriptures he thinks supports his position that in the “Tribulation” the Jews will repent, but since you think Daniel all bunk, that needed to be addressed first.

My interpretation is the same as the one most commonly advanced by conservative Christian commentators. The difference is just when the book was written. But I agree with these commentators on what the author was trying to communicate, and what events he was referring to.

 

[Edward]

T. E. Smith, I agree that Ed needs to present those scriptures he thinks supports his position that in the “Tribulation” the Jews will repent, but since you think Daniel all bunk, that needed to be addressed first.

I didn't say that they all repent. Who knows? It might only be the 144,000? Or maybe more. But the prophecies say that Israel is going to be seriously surrounded on all sides. And there are no Atheists in Foxholes!

I'll look and see if I can find exactly what I spoke of. My notes and stuff are not exactly organized, lol.

 

[T. E. Smith]

But the prophecies say that Israel is going to be seriously surrounded on all sides.

True, true. Except, that this already happened. The prophecies in the gospels are a reference to A.D. 70 (which is no issue, since they were probably all written after A.D. 70; virtually every scholar agrees at least that every gospel but Mark is written after A.D. 70; Mark is sometimes thought have been written just before). As for the prophecies in Daniel, those are a reference to the tribulations under Antiochus. Once again those have already happened.

I didn't say that they all repent.

Dorothy Mae did not say that you did think this. She said, "...that in the tribulation the Jews will repent", not "all the Jews will repent." Paul does have a section in an epistle where he may be proposing that a large number of Jews will repent towards the end (though he speaks of no Great Tribulation), but that passage is very unclear, as every honest interpreter (regardless of their interpretation) will acknowledge.

 

[for_his_glory]

T. E. Smith, I agree that Ed needs to present those scriptures he thinks supports his position that in the “Tribulation” the Jews will repent, but since you think Daniel all bunk, that needed to be addressed first.

Not sure what scripture in Daniel Edward was speaking of, but it might have been Daniel Chapter 11

Below are scriptures about the Jews in the end of days repenting of their sin.

1. Israel will confess their national sin:
Jeremiah 3:11-18; Hosea 5:15

2. Israel will plead for their newly found Messiah to return and deliver them
Isaiah 53:1-9; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 23:37-39; Romans 10:13-21

3. Israel's leaders will finally realize the reason the tribulation has fallen on them as a remnant will be saved.
Daniel Chapter 11; Joel 3:9-17; Zechariah 14:1-3; Rev Chapter 7; Rev 16:14-16

4. Later in the Millennial Kingdom, Israel will experience full possession of the promised land and the reestablishment of the Davidic throne. It will be a time of physical and Spiritual blessings, the basis of which is the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

www.whiteoakworship.org/the end of the tribulation

 

[for_his_glory]

True, true. Except, that this already happened. The prophecies in the gospels are a reference to A.D. 70 (which is no issue, since they were probably all written after A.D. 70; virtually every scholar agrees at least that every gospel but Mark is written after A.D. 70; Mark is sometimes thought have been written just before). As for the prophecies in Daniel, those are a reference to the tribulations under Antiochus. Once again those have already happened.

Dorothy Mae did not say that you did think this. She said, "...that in the tribulation the Jews will repent", not "all the Jews will repent." Paul does have a section in an epistle where he may be proposing that a large number of Jews will repent towards the end (though he speaks of no Great Tribulation), but that passage is very unclear, as every honest interpreter (regardless of their interpretation) will acknowledge.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The last battle will be the battle of Armageddon (Hill of Megiddo) Rev 16:12-16, in the end of days. This is the place where the kings of the earth under demonic leadership will wage war on the forces of God.

God spoke of the latter days that he would dry up the Nile River and the Euphrates River to prepare a highway for the scattered tribes of Judah to return back to Jerusalem, Isaiah 11:11-16; 27:12, 13; Jeremiah 50:4, 5. The kings of the east, 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10, are the faithful Jewish remnant of God’s people that He will gather back to Israel as they reclaim the inheritance of all the land from the Nile River to the Euphrates River that was promised to Abraham and his seed.

They are the faithful Jewish remnant of the house of Judah, Rev 7, whom from the time of the Babylonian captivity in 586 B.C. and the Egyptian captivity of Judah in 609 B.C. have stayed in the same lands they became accustom to, but now God will deliver those who are still alive back to their own land as they are joined together once again with the house of Israel, Ezekiel 37:22. This takes place right before Jesus returns.

(cross-reference for the remnant of God: Genesis 15:18; Isaiah 11:11, 12; Isaiah 27:12,13; 35; 43:1-7; 52:1-10; Jeremiah 3:18; 16:14,15; Joel 3:2-7; and Zechariah 10:9-11; 2 Kings 23:29-37, 2 Chronicles 35:20-27)​

 

[Northman]

"Daniel is a second-century forgery" is probably the boldest thing I have ever seen/heard said in an end times discussion.

 

[T. E. Smith]

"Daniel is a second-century forgery" is probably the boldest thing I have ever seen/heard said in an end times discussion.

However it is a very common statement among critical scholars.
Boldness is needed to disregard old ideas.

 

[for_his_glory]

However it is a very common statement among critical scholars.
Boldness is needed to disregard old ideas.

Many statements are common in society, but not all of society believe in the truths found in the Bible, but only sociable teachings that leads to doctrines of demons.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Many statements are common in society, but not all of society believe in the truths found in the Bible, but only sociable teachings that leads to doctrines of demons.

I don't believe it is a second century forgery just because that belief is popular. I don't even know if it's popular in the general population; only among scholars. I hold to it rather because it is what makes the most logical sense to me.

 

[Edward]

 

[eddif]

I didn't say that they all repent. Who knows? It might only be the 144,000? Or maybe more. But the prophecies say that Israel is going to be seriously surrounded on all sides. And there are no Atheists in Foxholes!

I'll look and see if I can find exactly what I spoke of. My notes and stuff are not exactly organized, lol.

Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Any man.
As an individual:
Jew, Greek, male, female, bond, free etc.

You said it right Edward.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I didn't say that they all repent. Who knows? It might only be the 144,000? Or maybe more. But the prophecies say that Israel is going to be seriously surrounded on all sides. And there are no Atheists in Foxholes!

I'll look and see if I can find exactly what I spoke of. My notes and stuff are not exactly organized, lol.

Thank you. One day I decided to do the math on how many the 144000 are and it’s like 1% of the jewish population in the world. Even if 1% become Christians, that’s not anywhere close to an impressive number.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not sure what scripture in Daniel Edward was speaking of, but it might have been Daniel Chapter 11

Below are scriptures about the Jews in the end of days repenting of their sin.

1. Israel will confess their national sin:
Jeremiah 3:11-18; Hosea 5:15
2. Israel will plead for their newly found Messiah to return and deliver them

Isaiah 53:1-9; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 23:37-39; Romans 10:13-21

3. Israel's leaders will finally realize the reason the tribulation has fallen on them as a remnant will be saved.
Daniel Chapter 11; Joel 3:9-17; Zechariah 14:1-3; Rev Chapter 7; Rev 16:14-16

4. Later in the Millennial Kingdom, Israel will experience full possession of the promised land and the reestablishment of the Davidic throne. It will be a time of physical and Spiritual blessings, the basis of which is the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

www.whiteoakworship.org/the end of

 

[eddif]

Revelation and the Old Testament - Apologetics Press

Can you imagine what life without the Old Testament would be like for a Christian? Although the commands in the New Testament still could be obeyed without the Old Testament, our knowledge would be incomplete. We would be unable to appreciate fully the passages in the New Testament that speak of...

apologeticspress.org

Christian interaction is almost funny at times. Four people read the same scripture and see four levels of information.

1. Some just see Adam & Eve and the fall.
2. That triggers others to think of Abraham and the promises.
3. Or Joseph in Egypt being delivered from famine.
4. Others take a giant leap into the spiritual gifts.

In dealing with teaching / pastoring elders you see:
Pastor in a congregation and sharing levels of blessing.
Oxen not muzzled in the law ( the law says the same thing)
Plowman taking part in harvest
Planter

1 Corinthians 9:7 kjv
7. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

We have all the history to help us.
One runs the food pantry
One teaches
One ministers
One heals (physical or spiritual.

We need all this. Hey redneck why don’t you choose one area? I did and then the panorama of all this was revealed. I kicked, screamed, fought till I got more. Is it all neatly arranged? No. Pressing forward to the high calling in Christ Jesus we all look for our calling.

From the first of time till the last of time the parallels are there.
I know:
He plows
I plant
They…….
Yes but
We are in this together.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[T. E. Smith]

Edward Dorothy Mae the 144,000 is symbolic. 12*12 in thousands.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Edward Dorothy Mae the 144,000 is symbolic. 12*12 in thousands.

Symbolic for what?

 

[Edward]

Edward Dorothy Mae the 144,000 is symbolic. 12*12 in thousands.

Someday I'll marvel at your strong will and fierce spirit. But not today. Not tomorrow either.