The "EVENTS" of salvation.

[Nathan]

What is it in Col 2:13-14 that causes you to assume dead people can not believe? By 'dead' you mean unsaved?

"Dead" - νεκρός nekrós, nek-ros'; from an apparently primary νέκυς nékys (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun):—dead.

By dead I mean without life. From the context of the passage we can see that it does not mean physical life - as in our lungs breathing air or our hearts pumping blood. It does mean spiritual life, as in separation from Christ - who is the only life.

Knowing that its spiritual dead, we can apply the same reasoning to it that we would apply to physically dead people. Physically dead people do not move, they do not speak, they do not hear, and they do not see. The same things are true of spiritually dead people.

Jhn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

You cannot "hear" God unless you are alive to Him. When you hear God it means you do have life. That is why Jesus said that those who hear and believe have eternal life. You cannot hear or believe if you do not have life.

Just like a dead person cannot raise themselves from the grave, neither can a spiritually dead person give themselves life. God makes us alive in Christ - we believe it or not. Those who believe have eternal life abiding in them, those who reject it reject the life God gives. God does not force us to accept His free gift.

 

[Gregg T]

Knowing that its spiritual dead, we can apply the same reasoning to it that we would apply to physically dead people. Physically dead people do not move, they do not speak, they do not hear, and they do not see. The same things are true of spiritually dead people.

John 3:18 "The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God."

• The one who has not believed is condemned.
• How then can you say someone is in Christ before he believes? or
• How then can you say someone is saved before he believes?
• One can not be both condemned and in Christ at the same time.

Your systematic is the reverse of what Scripture teaches.


Spiritually dead people with a hardened heart, a stone-like heart find it difficult to hear what God is saying. But spiritually dead people with a heart of flesh can hear what God is saying; and they can reason, apply logic, exercise their will, love, gain understanding, respond to God's calling and drawing . . . and they are able to believe.

Life in Christ comes after believing. John 20:31 "But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."


I am not going to argue this point with you any longer.

 

[eddif]

Boy oh boy.
Thanks Nathan for 101

1. News
There is a God and he has an order.
2. Bad news: if you don't follow the order, death. (Physical & Spiritual)
3. Hearing this bad news I repent. (Jonah)
4. Good news: Jesus died for our sins
5. Personal belief
6. Get Holy Spirit so you can tell others the good news you heard
7. Realize that at the resurrection your vile self will be changed
8. There is eternity with God for believers and hell for the unbelievers.

Now I could spend a lot of time on scriptures, or let others search.

Short list:
Repent
Believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation
Receive the Holy Spirit for power to witness that others may be saved.

Read the Great Commission in various places.

Do they tar and feather rednecks?

Redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

One can not be both condemned and in Christ at the same time.

Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh, are not condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh

The Bible teaches just the reverse of what you teach.

again

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those Christian's who are in Christ, who practice the works of the flesh are condemned to not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[billybalke]

Well, lets just post the passage in there for examination.

Col 2:8-12
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, (vs 12)having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

We see that we were buried with Him in baptism, in which also we were raised with Him - through faith - which we see is the powerful working of God.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith is God's work in us. When He gives us faith, we have the ability to believe and choose. This is only possible because in Christ our sins are covered. We have the ability to believe because He gave it to us by making us alive in Christ.

A person either accepts this forgiveness of sins based totally on the work of Christ, or they reject it. You cannot base forgiveness of sins, being made alive in Christ, being redeemed from sin - on something you do. It is not based on our belief, we believe(or do not) because it is already done.

Peter understood what faith was. He knew he could walk on water only after Christ commanded him. We cannot believe(have faith) in Christ until God commands us to. God does not command dead people to do things. He makes us alive in Christ, and commands us to believe. We either obey, or disobey the commandment.

Act 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

You cannot repent - turn away from something, to something else - if you are not alive and not without knowing what it is you are doing. When we believe, it is because God has set before us the reality of what He has done. When we do not believe, we deny what He has done for us.

Note when and where the raising is.

 

[billybalke]

LITV is the Literal Translation Version. It is not a flawless translation, but for the most part, it gives a more literal translation of the Greek New Testament words. I would not recommend it for the Old Testament.

I would encourage you to consult with your pastor, or with a seminary Greek language professor, about my comment. If not, consult a Greek lexicon or grammar book.

Are there verses in the LITV teaching we believe "into" Christ? If so, where. God bless.

 

[Gregg T]

Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh, are not condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh

The Bible teaches just the reverse of what you teach.

again

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those Christian's who are in Christ, who practice the works of the flesh are condemned to not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

I think you lost some "

" brackets somewhere.

I was negating that a person can be in Christ before believing, such as Nathan thinks and has posted numerous times. Believing comes first, then someone is saved.

I quoted a verse that states someone not in Christ is condemned already, because they haven't believed. So the straightforward conclusion is you can not be both 1. already condemned, at the same time as 2. being in Christ, but not yet believing.

Why you posted the above is beyond me. But you have posted that same thing umpteen times.

 

[JLB]

One can not be both condemned and in Christ at the same time.

Not true.

Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh, are not condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, who walk according to the Spirit.

Not so, for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the flesh.



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Are there verses in the LITV teaching we believe "into" Christ? If so, where. God bless.

LITV version is available online here:

http://www.thewordnotes.com/litv/litv.htm
http://studybible.info/version/LITV
or you can use e-sword and locate an LITV module throu a third party.

Let me clarify a couple of things. Our doing the believing {the conviction that the Lord and His Gospel are true, and our obedience to trust the Lord to save us} is not itself the agent, or power, or action that puts us into Christ. The Spirit of the Lord unites us with Christ; He places us into Him. The Scriptures describe these two actions {1. our believing God and 2. His consequent transfer of us into Christ} as believig into Christ.

Knowing and understanding and believing things about God, Jesus Christ, His words, and His just requirement . . . is different than trusting Him by believing into Christ because of those things.

 

[Gregg T]

Not true.

Those who are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh, are not condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, who walk according to the Spirit.

Not so, for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the flesh.



JLB

Yes because being in Christ, we are "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" (Rom 8:9), and so we are those who "do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit" (Rom 8:1).

Rom 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin."
and,
Rom 8:2 "For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death."

 

[Nathan]

John 3:18 "The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God."

• The one who has not believed is condemned.
• How then can you say someone is in Christ before he believes? or
• How then can you say someone is saved before he believes?
• One can not be both condemned and in Christ at the same time.

Your systematic is the reverse of what Scripture teaches.


Spiritually dead people with a hardened heart, a stone-like heart find it difficult to hear what God is saying. But spiritually dead people with a heart of flesh can hear what God is saying; and they can reason, apply logic, exercise their will, love, gain understanding, respond to God's calling and drawing . . . and they are able to believe.

Life in Christ comes after believing. John 20:31 "But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."


I am not going to argue this point with you any longer.

I'd rather not argue either. I was trying to discuss it really.

We have salvation in Christ. If a person has a choice to believe, then that means God has given them that ability. So, a person cannot 'believe' in something(or not believe in it) if they don't know or have a choice.

When Jesus says that those who do not believe are condemned - it has to be because they chose not to believe. That means they made a choice after being given the opportunity to make it.

You need to understand that there are many aspects to salvation. The truth will never make sense until you understand it's not a 'once and done' thing based on something you do. Once you get past that point, things that seem to contradict all fit together.

A person has to lay down the idea they do something before God saves them. Christ's yoke is much easier to bear.

John 3:19 (ESV) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

The judgment(of the condemned) is that the people made a choice for darkness instead of light. Dead people don't see light, they had to have been made able to see the light - then reject it.

Those who see the light right now will do well not to reject it. Believe in the light, don't reject it. It is your salvation. It's all been done for you.

 

[chessman]

Not so, for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the flesh.

How come you speak of people who are in Christ yet who walk according to the flesh? Paul says those who are in Christ do not walk according to the flesh and have been set free? It's the law of the Spirit of life that Christ Jesus has (not might) set you free from walking in the flesh.

Romans 8:2 (NASB) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
​

Are you an unbeliever in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

 

[Cygnus]

There are five requirements to Salvation

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10

2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15

3. Faith - John 3:14-18

4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8

5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

What is the order? I say your number 4 is 1st.

 

[Cygnus]

I probably have asked where it states we are only put into Christ after we believe. Because as far as I have ever seen, and know, we are put into Christ by God and we then have the ability to believe after we are given life.

I would agree. Regeneration happens first.

 

[JLB]

How come you speak of people who are in Christ yet who walk according to the flesh? Paul says those who are in Christ do not walk according to the flesh and have been set free? It's the law of the Spirit of life that Christ Jesus has (not might) set you free from walking in the flesh.

Romans 8:2 (NASB) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
​

Are you an unbeliever in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

• he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

again, Paul warns the Church at Rome:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

• The command: do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

The result of disobeying the command: you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin...

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The result of obeying the command: obedience leading to righteousness?


The principle of righteousness: He who practices righteousness is righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Those who live according to the flesh, to practice the works of the flesh, are unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


Those who have crucified the flesh, and who walk according to the Spirit, in which they are led by the Spirit of God within, are sons of God.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Paul gives us the example of those Christians who are walking according to the flesh, with the evidence of the life practicing the works of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Then Paul gives us the example of those who have put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, and have crucified the flesh, in which they are walking according to the Spirit, with the evidence of the Spirit led life, producing the the righteous work of the Spirit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-24



Those who will inherit eternal life, and come forth in the resurrection of life are those who live their life according to the Spirit, in which they have crucified the flesh, and are Christ's: who are sons of God, having attained the resurrection of the dead, and can not die anymore.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

 

[Cygnus]

I'd rather not argue either. I was trying to discuss it really.

We have salvation in Christ. If a person has a choice to believe, then that means God has given them that ability. So, a person cannot 'believe' in something(or not believe in it) if they don't know or have a choice.

When Jesus says that those who do not believe are condemned - it has to be because they chose not to believe. That means they made a choice after being given the opportunity to make it.

You need to understand that there are many aspects to salvation. The truth will never make sense until you understand it's not a 'once and done' thing based on something you do. Once you get past that point, things that seem to contradict all fit together.

A person has to lay down the idea they do something before God saves them. Christ's yoke is much easier to bear.

John 3:19 (ESV) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

The judgment(of the condemned) is that the people made a choice for darkness instead of light. Dead people don't see light, they had to have been made able to see the light - then reject it.

Those who see the light right now will do well not to reject it. Believe in the light, don't reject it. It is your salvation. It's all been done for you.

I would say once a person is regenerated then given the ability to believe...they will choose Christ. Otherwise your salvation becomes based upon happenstance.

 

[Cygnus]

Spiritually dead people with a hardened heart, a stone-like heart find it difficult to hear what God is saying. But spiritually dead people with a heart of flesh can hear what God is saying; and they can reason, apply logic, exercise their will, love, gain understanding, respond to God's calling and drawing . . . and they are able to believe.

I would disagree with that order.
There seems to be too much "man" in that path. In that path man seems to be taking his lifetime experience...happenstance...and basing their decision of accepting Christ upon that.

 

[Cygnus]

How come you speak of people who are in Christ yet who walk according to the flesh? Paul says those who are in Christ do not walk according to the flesh and have been set free? It's the law of the Spirit of life that Christ Jesus has (not might) set you free from walking in the flesh.

I'm not so sure you presented that verse correctly. In the sense you put it every christian who sins is walking according to the flesh. Would you consider them as lost?

 

[Nathan]

I would say once a person is regenerated then given the ability to believe...they will choose Christ. Otherwise your salvation becomes based upon happenstance.

I would say some do, most only for a while, but there are some who actually choose to deny the gift of God and never receive it - aka, disobedience by unbelief.

Rom 11:17-24
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The 'unbelieving' Jews were broken off because of their disobedience of unbelief. They saw the light of God, but chose to not believe in Him. That does not mean that they cannot believe later on, there are many who have, but it does mean they never believed in Jesus as the Christ - even when they were shown who He was. Last half of Romans 10 deals with this.

 

[eddif]

I thought the planting of seed / word fell on three places:

1. The road - where Satan snatches away before germination

2. Stony ground - that springs up then withers

3. Good ground - that brings forth a good crop

Jesus mentions three situations.

At judgement we find out the truth:
Who is listed in Lamb's book of life
Who did well
Who was a worker of iniquity
Who is saved as by fire

The resurrection has not already happened.

eddif