The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[miamited]

Hi Consecrated Life

What dramatic event then marks the beginning of the tribulation ?

I believe the sign given of the days of great tribulation about to come upon us, is the rise of the final Antichrist.

Kind of like if some powerful world leader would want to visit revenge on everyone that he thought weren't bowing down low enough. The final Antichrist will usher in the days of great tribulation like has never been seen before nor ever will be. We, those who are born again, should recognize whoever that person turns out to be. Paul made a prophetic claim that the rapture would not come until this final Antichrist was revealed.

Hi journeyman

Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

That so much sounds like the U.S. to me. "By reason of her costliness". There are so many cities in the U.S. and we are the largest consumer nation on the planet! It is pretty much for trade with the U.S. that the majority of the trade ships are on the seas. Although it could be some great city in China or India, but as far as the costliness of any nation spending on trade the U.S. has everyone beat hands down.

Right this minute, there's some saber rattling of Iran sending out some nuclear 'welcome wagon' packages for our attacks on the Houthis. What if two bombs the size of Hiroshima, or larger, hit New York? How much would still stand? In a matter of one hour the entire city would become full of dead and dying and be completely uninhabitable for a time. Tall skyscrapers come crashing down blocking streets and destroying everything and everyone below. If something were powerful enough to knock down a dozen skyscrapers, you could pretty much make the streets of New York City impassable. This is, of course, just idle talk looking in to 'how' a biblical prophecy might look like in our day coming to fruition.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

That so much sounds like the U.S. to me. "By reason of her costliness". There are so many cities in the U.S. and we are the largest consumer nation on the planet! It is pretty much for trade with the U.S. that the majority of the trade ships are on the seas. Although it could be some great city in China or India, but as far as the costliness of any nation spending on trade the U.S. has everyone beat hands down.

Right this minute, there's some saber rattling of Iran sending out some nuclear 'welcome wagon' packages for our attacks on the Houthis. What if two bombs the size of Hiroshima, or larger, hit New York? How much would still stand? In a matter of one hour the entire city would become full of dead and dying and be completely uninhabitable for a time. Tall skyscrapers come crashing down blocking streets and destroying everything and everyone below. If something were powerful enough to knock down a dozen skyscrapers, you could pretty much make the streets of New York City impassable. This is, of course, just idle talk looking in to 'how' a biblical prophecy might look like in our day coming to fruition.

God bless,
Ted

Hello Ted.
The progression of calamity on earth seems to intensify as time passes, but Babylon is "the mother" of the unfaithful, the one who gives birth to all the others like her. Therefore Babylon must be symbolic of unfaithfulness throughout history,

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev.18:24 KJV

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel.....Mt.23:35 KJV

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

I'm not really sure 'who' babylon is, as a nation or group that still exists. My position was concerning the beast that rises up out of the sea. The one of which people ask rhetorically, "who can wage war against the beast?" At this moment in history, that seems to be the U.S. by description of being a nation born of people from all the nations, 'coming up out of the sea'. That seems to be what most theologians find as the reasonable exegesis of that phrase.

I'm always open to other understandings. There are a number of players written of in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that are still, I believe at this point, questionable as to 'who', 'where', or 'what' they point to. One has to imagine that for 500 years the Jews knew Daniel's writings and had studied them to the nth degree, but yet they missed the seemingly plain teaching of when Messiah would come. There were some offhanded statements that referred to what the Scriptures say as far as his being born in Bethlehem when the travelers came to appear before Herod. But apparently no one was really understanding that the end of the 69 sevens was happening in their very lives. That all of the murmuring and rumoring of some wierd birth goings on was happening right at the very moment that Daniel's prophecy of the 69 sevens would bring them to, if they had only read and understood it.

So yes, I'm always open to discussion on these things.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

So, when you read that Babylon has fallen, that's a metaphor or description somehow of unrighteousness has ended?

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

I'm not really sure 'who' babylon is, as a nation or group that still exists.

Babylon is where man sought to reach heaven his own way.

Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Gen.11:9 KJV

God prevented man by his own babel.

My position was concerning the beast that rises up out of the sea. The one of which people ask rhetorically, "who can wage war against the beast?" At this moment in history, that seems to be the U.S. by description of being a nation born of people from all the nations, 'coming up out of the sea'. That seems to be what most theologians find as the reasonable exegesis of that phrase.

Yes but since Daniel sees the beasts as representing nations through time, Revelation sees the beast as one body.
Therefore, the "last beast" along with "the mother of harlots" is a group or nation which represents human government throughout the history of the world.

I'm always open to other understandings. There are a number of players written of in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that are still, I believe at this point, questionable as to 'who', 'where', or 'what' they point to.

Then look at what they do and you'll discover the things they do have been done since the days of old,

That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecc.1:9 NKJV

One has to imagine that for 500 years the Jews knew Daniel's writings and had studied them to the nth degree, but yet they missed the seemingly plain teaching of when Messiah would come.

That is stunning. How could that ever happen among a people whose lives were governed by the God of the Bible? Here's how,

Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifyof me. And ye will not come to me that ye might have life. Jn.5:39-40

We see His gentle pleading, Yes?

There were some offhanded statements that referred to what the Scriptures say as far as his being born in Bethlehem when the travelers came to appear before Herod. But apparently no one was really understanding that the end of the 69 sevens was happening in their very lives. That all of the murmuring and rumoring of some wierd birth goings on was happening right at the very moment that Daniel's prophecy of the 69 sevens would bring them to, if they had only read and understood it.

So yes, I'm always open to discussion on these things.

God bless,
Ted

I'm enthrawled miamited ,
because maybe you still have the ability to look at what the Jews thought the Messiah would do.....and now realize congregations proclaiming "in Jesus' name" how Messiah will defeat His enemies upon His return.

I have a question foy you Ted,

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26 KJV

is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death 2Tim.1:10 KJV

Would you say it's biblically acceptable to say Jesus defeated every evil power on earth (whether spirit or human)?

Jesus conquered anyone or anything that opposed a sinner from coming to the love He has for us. Do you agree?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

So, when you read that Babylon has fallen, that's a metaphor or description somehow of unrighteousness has ended?

God bless,
Ted

No. It's what God has always said it was (to whatever degree it happened),

He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity. Ecc.5:10 KJV

We all know stuff like this from our own experience. We also know hoping in material wealth leads to heartace when an economy collapses, or is taken over or destroyed by another so called power.

I think what we need to do as gentile believers is realize that,

In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek and his dwellings shall be glorious. Isa.11:10 RSV

"But how then should the scriptures be fulfilled that it must be so?" Mt.26:54 RSV

And now here you and the rest of Miami is along with me and all the other gentiles who heard about a real God from this preacher who didn't appear to be around too long but had the nerve to say,

this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations Mt.24:14

I think bookmakers would have lost all. As far as possibility from a human standpoint it was a lock. There's no coming back from the grave.

We already know it's the greatest come back in human history because He is who He always was.

 

[miamited]

Babylon is where man sought to reach heaven his own way.

Hi journeyman

Right, but I don't see that you've offered any explanation for what or how that refers to the use of Babylon being described as a city and what that means to infer through whatever symbolism you see in that. Could you explain that?

Yes but since Daniel sees the beasts as representing nations through time, Revelation sees the beast as one body.
Therefore, the "last beast" along with "the mother of harlots" is a group or nation which represents human government throughout the history of the world.

Not really clear on what that's saying.

That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecc.1:9 NKJV

I have no idea what that passage is supposed to be saying in application of these other passages that we're discussing.

As for your next post. Would I be correct in understanding that if we love silver we won't be satisfied and that's what Babylon represents in the usage in this passage?

Honestly, you're posts seem to be more mystical in nature.

Thanks for your responses.
God bless,
Ted

 

[reddogs]

Okay ,so the end of tribulation finishes with some drama .
What dramatic event then marks the beginning of the tribulation ?

Well, if you want a 'event' this one basically was the start of the counter reformation and led to the persecution of the faithful.

The Council of Trent and its support of paganism.

The Council of Trent was held in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation; it approved many pagan and unbiblical beliefs and declared it was to be accepted under the threat of "anathema". The Council of Trent declared in its proclamation's the following: It denied all...

christianforums.net

 

[Consecrated Life]

Well, if you want a 'event' this one basically was the start of the counter reformation and led to the persecution of the faithful.

The Council of Trent and its support of paganism.

The Council of Trent was held in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation; it approved many pagan and unbiblical beliefs and declared it was to be accepted under the threat of "anathema". The Council of Trent declared in its proclamation's the following: It denied all...

christianforums.net

It's not a matter of what I want ?
You said that the scripture which cannot lie say that there will be a tribulation.
A tribulation , by definition & by common sense would have a discernable, verifiable start point & finish point .
Especially given it is described as the most horrible time the world has ever seen .
You have given us nothing in identifying basis for this horror of the tribulation.
I ask again , what is the beginning of God has declared will be worst horror the world has ever seen ?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi journeyman

Right, but I don't see that you've offered any explanation for what or how that refers to the use of Babylon being described as a city and what that means to infer through whatever symbolism you see in that. Could you explain that?

I've been explaining it. I don't think you're looking at what I'm saying.

Not really clear on what that's saying.

I have no idea what that passage is supposed to be saying in application of these other passages that we're discussing.

Why is it hard to understand the mother of all prostitutes is the 1st prostitute? Throughout history, she gave birth to every other prostitute on earth. Babylon isn't a city or group that shows up near the end of the world. Neither is "the beast."

As for your next post. Would I be correct in understanding that if we love silver we won't be satisfied and that's what Babylon represents in the usage in this passage?

Of course and always has. I think I already posted to you about the blood of the prophets being exacted at the hands of Babylon, but earlier Jesus said the blood of all the prophets would be required of the religious leaders He was speakking to.
That's a contradiction, unless our Lord was referrng to a type of people, of the same body who span time.

Honestly, you're posts seem to be more mystical in nature.

Thanks for your responses.
God bless,
Ted

Not "mystical" like gnostic. It's spiritual.

 

[miamited]

Hi Consecrated Life

I ask again , what is the beginning of God has declared will be worst horror the world has ever seen ?

Just butting in here, but Paul told us that we would see the final Antichrist before the rapture. As I understand the Scriptures, the rapture comes sometime after the days of great tribulation begin. Therefore, when we see the man that God's word identifies as the final Antichrist, we will either be in or just starting the days of great tribulation. That's really the only sign I see giving us a lead in to the great tribulation.

As far as I know there aren't any other markers given for the beginning of those days. There are a few accounts of things that will be happening in those days, but as far as some sort of marker or sign that we should be looking for to start those days, I think Paul's instruction here is all we have.

God bless,
Ted

 

[reddogs]

Hi journeyman

I'm not really sure 'who' babylon is, as a nation or group that still exists. My position was concerning the beast that rises up out of the sea. The one of which people ask rhetorically, "who can wage war against the beast?" At this moment in history, that seems to be the U.S. by description of being a nation born of people from all the nations, 'coming up out of the sea'. That seems to be what most theologians find as the reasonable exegesis of that phrase.

I'm always open to other understandings. There are a number of players written of in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that are still, I believe at this point, questionable as to 'who', 'where', or 'what' they point to. One has to imagine that for 500 years the Jews knew Daniel's writings and had studied them to the nth degree, but yet they missed the seemingly plain teaching of when Messiah would come. There were some offhanded statements that referred to what the Scriptures say as far as his being born in Bethlehem when the travelers came to appear before Herod. But apparently no one was really understanding that the end of the 69 sevens was happening in their very lives. That all of the murmuring and rumoring of some wierd birth goings on was happening right at the very moment that Daniel's prophecy of the 69 sevens would bring them to, if they had only read and understood it.

So yes, I'm always open to discussion on these things.

God bless,
Ted

We are told it will go to the end and face the wrath of God, and if one looks its not hard to find...

 

[miamited]

We are told it will go to the end and face the wrath of God, and if one looks its not hard to find...

I'm down with that. Who or what is Babylon?

God bless,
Ted

 

[reddogs]

It's not a matter of what I want ?
You said that the scripture which cannot lie say that there will be a tribulation.
A tribulation , by definition & by common sense would have a discernable, verifiable start point & finish point .
Especially given it is described as the most horrible time the world has ever seen .
You have given us nothing in identifying basis for this horror of the tribulation.
I ask again , what is the beginning of God has declared will be worst horror the world has ever seen ?

Once the antichrist entity arose and started persecution the saints, no question it had started...

 

[reddogs]

I'm down with that. Who or what is Babylon?

God bless,
Ted

We must study and learn as the Bible shows it...

 

[miamited]

We must study and learn as the Bible shows it...

Right, and that's pretty much my understanding of Babylon.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again reddogs

For the record, it has long been my belief that the woman we find described as riding a beast, is the organization headed by the Pontiff of Rome. That's really never been at question in my understanding for at least 20 years. Colors of scarlet and purple = the official colors of the Vatican. Lots of gold and wealth = the organization of the Vatican. Murdering the saints = the 'christian' purges of heretics and those who would not accept the authority of the Vatican.

There really is no other religious or non-religious group or organization that one could tie those descriptors to. How many organizations do we know that trade in or on a scarlet and purple color scheme? Now there are some muslim sects that one might consider has murdered saints, but they have pretty much no wealth to speak of. The Vatican is literally the wealthiest organization in the world, as regards the gold icons and rich art work. And money for that matter.

And the Scriptures tell us that one day she will be laid bare and all men will marvel at her destruction.

God bless,
Ted

 

[reddogs]

Hi Consecrated Life
I believe the sign given of the days of great tribulation about to come upon us, is the rise of the final Antichrist.

Kind of like if some powerful world leader would want to visit revenge on everyone that he thought weren't bowing down low enough. The final Antichrist will usher in the days of great tribulation like has never been seen before nor ever will be. We, those who are born again, should recognize whoever that person turns out to be. Paul made a prophetic claim that the rapture would not come until this final Antichrist was revealed.

Hi journeyman

That so much sounds like the U.S. to me. "By reason of her costliness". There are so many cities in the U.S. and we are the largest consumer nation on the planet! It is pretty much for trade with the U.S. that the majority of the trade ships are on the seas. Although it could be some great city in China or India, but as far as the costliness of any nation spending on trade the U.S. has everyone beat hands down.

Right this minute, there's some saber rattling of Iran sending out some nuclear 'welcome wagon' packages for our attacks on the Houthis. What if two bombs the size of Hiroshima, or larger, hit New York? How much would still stand? In a matter of one hour the entire city would become full of dead and dying and be completely uninhabitable for a time. Tall skyscrapers come crashing down blocking streets and destroying everything and everyone below. If something were powerful enough to knock down a dozen skyscrapers, you could pretty much make the streets of New York City impassable. This is, of course, just idle talk looking in to 'how' a biblical prophecy might look like in our day coming to fruition.

God bless,
Ted

Its not hard to find if you look and is still here...

 

[reddogs]

It's not a matter of what I want ?
You said that the scripture which cannot lie say that there will be a tribulation.
A tribulation , by definition & by common sense would have a discernable, verifiable start point & finish point .
Especially given it is described as the most horrible time the world has ever seen .
You have given us nothing in identifying basis for this horror of the tribulation.
I ask again , what is the beginning of God has declared will be worst horror the world has ever seen ?

Well, when the horrors of the Inquisition are repeated as the false christ appears and asks all to worship him or face death, I think you will see what it means...

 

[Consecrated Life]

Well, when the horrors of the Inquisition are repeated as the false christ appears and asks all to worship him or face death, I think you will see what it means...

How does he gain that kind of power to make slaves of millions
Does he establish an enforcement army Instantly, or over a period of time thru his political skills, as Hitler did ?