The False Security of Eternal Security

[Deborah13]

Actually, it's unbelievable you won't answer questions you think are simple 'yes' or 'no' questions.

I don't consider your contradictory and non sequitur questions to be simple 'yes' or 'no' questions. But here is a question you consider simple.

Y'gonna answer it? Is Paul the Apostle a Christian?

Because Paul stated "I am the chief of sinners". He considered himself a sinner while being a Christian.

The fact is, repentance demands that there be something to repent of. What is it Christians repent of, if they do not sin? Do they repent of good works?! No.

If they do sin, how are they complying with the command to repent of sin? Repentance is turning away from sin.

Repentance is turning. Yet Christians sin.

And Christ forgives.

So the Christian is constantly in the process of committing sins, and being forgiven and repenting of sins.

The Christian is a sinner.

Romans 7:16-20 - "16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."
What is Paul saying? I am not going to come back with what I think, this isn't a set up for debate this is just a question. To me it is a hard one to really understand. How could Paul say he is a sinner but then say it's not him but sin (noun) which dwells in him?

 

[Cassian]

Question?
When you say that "If I become unfaithful, and choose to remain unfaithful, I cannot be saved no matter how much I once believed." are you saying you become reprobate.

If you wish to use that term, it does fit. Scripture uses different words, but there are only two locations or positions.

One is either IN Christ or Apart from Him Spiritually.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually, it's unbelievable you won't answer questions you think are simple 'yes' or 'no' questions.

I don't consider your contradictory and non sequitur questions to be simple 'yes' or 'no' questions. But here is a question you consider simple.

Y'gonna answer it? Is Paul the Apostle a Christian?

Because Paul stated "I am the chief of sinners". He considered himself a sinner while being a Christian.

The fact is, repentance demands that there be something to repent of. What is it Christians repent of, if they do not sin? Do they repent of good works?! No.

If they do sin, how are they complying with the command to repent of sin? Repentance is turning away from sin.

Repentance is turning. Yet Christians sin.

And Christ forgives.

So the Christian is constantly in the process of committing sins, and being forgiven and repenting of sins.

The Christian is a sinner.

There is a host of verses that says the sinner is lost. Paul was not a lost sinner nor is Paul saying a Christian can be a sinner living in sin and still saved for that contradicts a whole hosts of verses also.

You posted "So the Christian is constantly in the process of committing sins, and being forgiven and repenting of sins."

So you are saying the Christian maintaining his salvation is conditional upon his repenting. Unless you argue the Christian can be impenitent and still maintain his salvation.

 

[Danus]

Danus,


not being secure, does not mean I don't believe I have salvation. I cannot guarantee my own salvation because I am still a sinner, I still have my sinful nature, satan is still seeking to decieve. There is nothing in the world that could possibly guarantee, including myself, about my future. Eternal salvation is a present day event and must continue to the next.

Eternal security as described and defined by your viewpoint is a scriptural myth. It does not exist and never has existed in scripture. It exists only in a personal interpretation of scripture.

All you are pointing out is that your personal interpretation or even acceptance of another persons interpretation is what scripture means. To say what the Bible says is quite meaningless when hundreds of others say the very same thing and everyone is different.

The historical fact is that such an interpretation cannot be found either postively, or negatively in the first 1500 years of the existance of the revelation given to the Apostles. Since the reformation within the protestant milieu there have been many new theories, new doctrines, all developed by individuals. Hardly the Gospel once given to the saints in the beginning.

Whether you claim to be or not is not the issue either. The discussion is what scripture means. Scripture has never had such a doctrine as "eternal security" as defined and developed within reformed section of all protestant groups or doctrines. If God is telling something different for you than most, then I would question two things. Either God, through the Holy Spirit is confused or you are incorrect. On the other hand if you are correct, then why was not this taught to the early Church, and why does not everyone else that even interprets it personally under the practice of sola scripture come to the same conclusion?



As in our other discussion, this is a huge difference also from scripture. Christ did not save you personally. He saved the world, which includes all of mankind from death, from the fall, the condemnation through Adam.
Christ did this for the express purpose that He could call out every single human being to be united with Him. IF it was up to God everyone would be individually saved as well. If it was up to God then He would not need to call all men to repentance. But God created man free, just as Adam made a free choice, to choose whether they would be in a relationship with God. That relationship is not guaranteed in any shape or form as we can see from the story of Adam. That relationship is entirely within your hands. YOu were given all the gifts, the tools, the ability, the capability to respond to God. In fact, man must actually make a negative decision even to reject God.

This is not even about your salvation. I'm not Christ, I am not going to be your judge. And you are correct, I don't care what you think about my salvation because that is also not on the table.

What is being discussed is the meaning of God's revelation to man of which scripture is but a part. You have the view that individual man has the right, but even more, the ability to discern Gospel Truth on his own from a mere text. The Apostles did not even have that ability. There were never given a text. They were given All Truth, and then they dispensed that Truth through the Church to the world, calling indiviuduals to Christ. Nothing in scripture ever says that scripture ONLY is the source of faith and practice. Scripture emphatically states that individual an will never recieve private revelation for his own interpretation.



That is great, that is a great testimony. But it does not add anything to the discussion about the meaning of scripture.



Aside from your personal view, scripture speaks opposite of everything you say here. First, God is calling all men to repentance. He is going to make sure that no man will have an excuse that he did not have the opportunity to know God. Scripture never says God abandons man. But scripture ad nausem explains that man can walk away from God. Again, see the story of Adam. God did not force him to remain faithful. God did not want forced love, but love freely returned and kept.
His love is far from irresistable because most men in the end will reject that love.



Which is why the view is a panacea for modern man. It is so comfortable and such a warm fuzzy felling, psychologically uplifting that all one needs to do is believe and in an instant one is finitely saved for an eternity. Yet scripture never teaches such a thing which is why I cannot say that I will in the future still be saved. I have assurance that I am saved today, but I cannot predict the future. Maybe you can and you are not like all other human beings who are still sinners, still possess a sinful nature, and satan above all others is trying to decieve you. Maybe he has already succeeded. He is using the very opposite lie that He gave to Adam. He told Adam that he could become like God on his own. He did not need God.

Eternal security is saying that God will save you and you cannot ever lose salvation as long as you say you believe in any given moment. Scripture says that neither man alone, nor God alone can save our souls. It takes a relationship between man and God to save our souls.

Did you know that by saying a prayer a few seconds long will guarantee you eternal salvation right on the web. It is just amazing. Why have God's revelation when all we needed is one sentence. Just believe in me for a few seconds, say it with your heart, and you are eternally saved. I would think that every single human being would jump at it. But alas, many enter, but find the journey just to tough and the road keeps getting narrower and the gate is very narrow.

ONLy God can give me the strength and power to endure as long as I request that power by being faithful. If I become unfaithful, and choose to remain unfaithful, I cannot be saved no matter how much I once believed.



again, confused here. Your salvation from death is free, it is given to every single human being. But your relationship (the salvation of your individual soul) is NOT free, it is your choice, and it has obligations to meet, which will cost you. It could cost you your life.

Then what do care if some of us know we are secure & God saved us in a way you where obviously not?

If you can walk away from God then you must not be very strong in your faith. What kind of relationship is that. That's all I can determine. If the devil can catch you and take you away from your father then why do you even care to be saved? It must be very difficult for you to follow Christ. You can't even count on God. You really don't have any hope in God at all because who knows, he could dump you at any time.

Seems to me like the one who wants you more is Satan and he's practically convinced you that God will probably not be able to save you because he's left the decision to you and you alone.

Again, good luck. Hope you make it.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Then what do care if some of us know we are secure & God saved us in a way you where obviously not?

Because it is a false security. It does not lead to a life of willingness to increase, to become more conformed to His Image. If nothing you actually do effects your salvation in the future, then one becomes lazy, stagnant in faith, and actually might lose faith not even knowing they lost faith because they believe it cannot happen.

If you can walk away from God then you must not be very strong in your faith.

My faith has nothing to do with the discussion. But everyone that does walk away is because their faith was not strong, or they willingly gave it up for the pleasures of this world. The journey became to difficult, to arduous and they rather desidered the short lived pleasures of this world.

What kind of relationship is that.

NOt a very good one. It could also be one like the foolish virgins, who know of the way, but decided to live frivolously, and ran short of time. The master came earlier than they thought and were unprepared for his coming.

When one becomes a believer, they are not all of a sudden perfected in faith and are the most mature christians alive. Our faith grows, matures, but even many who matured and were faithful for many years of their life can still walk away for many different reasons.

If the devil can catch you and take you away from your father then why do you even care to be saved?

You seem to think that man, a human being, when He becomes a believer is living a risk free life and in some shelterd coccoon where all the evil, sin and satan just do not exist. If Adam can fall, who was not even sinful as yet, and did not have a sinful nature, could fall, why do you think you can do better than he?

It must be very difficult for you to follow Christ. You can't even count on God.

It may be for some people which is why they fall. But God is the ONLY thing we can count on. He will always keep His promises, but man is the weak link in the relationship. The relationship is hinged on what we do as human beings, not on what God does. God works with us only as long as we keep working with Him.

You really don't have any hope in God at all because who knows, he could dump you at any time.

It will NEVER be because of HIm. It will always be because of men. That is why I am going to be judged for what I do. God is not going to judge Himself.

Seems to me like the one who wants you more is Satan and he's practically convinced you that God will probably not be able to save you because he's left the decision to you and you alone.

No question Satan does desire that I leave Christ and come to follow HIM. Christians are the only field he has to work in since he has all the rest. He works very hard to shake you loose. Unfortunately, He is very successful. Which is why scripture has so many exhortantion to remain faithful, Gives us all the tools to know and do so that we do not fall.

But you are very correct. The decision is all on the shoulders of man. That is why God created us free. He wanted a creature that would respond to Him freely, not under any force or compulsion. What kind of love is forced loved? What glory is there for God if man can only do what God forced or created him to do. Man would simply be a tool no different than a tree, and even worse than animals. Yet He created us in His Image, to be the highest form of creatures who could communicate and join with Him, who has a rational soul. He created us specifically to do His work. We were created to be prophets, priests and kings over this earth. To have dominion over it but to use it properly, sacramentally so that we can bring both ourselves and this world to God as a living sacrifice.

the decision is all upon man which is why God can judge us justly. He simply mets out the result of our decision . In order to have a human being freely in communion with Him, to freely love HIm He created man free, and knew the risk that many human beings would reject Him.

 

[Deborah13]

Danus,



Because it is a false security. It does not lead to a life of willingness to increase, to become more conformed to His Image. If nothing you actually do effects your salvation in the future, then one becomes lazy, stagnant in faith, and actually might lose faith not even knowing they lost faith because they believe it cannot happen.
My faith has nothing to do with the discussion. But everyone that does walk away is because their faith was not strong, or they willingly gave it up for the pleasures of this world. The journey became to difficult, to arduous and they rather desidered the short lived pleasures of this world.

NOt a very good one. It could also be one like the foolish virgins, who know of the way, but decided to live frivolously, and ran short of time. The master came earlier than they thought and were unprepared for his coming.

When one becomes a believer, they are not all of a sudden perfected in faith and are the most mature christians alive. Our faith grows, matures, but even many who matured and were faithful for many years of their life can still walk away for many different reasons.

You seem to think that man, a human being, when He becomes a believer is living a risk free life and in some shelterd coccoon where all the evil, sin and satan just do not exist. If Adam can fall, who was not even sinful as yet, and did not have a sinful nature, could fall, why do you think you can do better than he?

It may be for some people which is why they fall. But God is the ONLY thing we can count on. He will always keep His promises, but man is the weak link in the relationship. The relationship is hinged on what we do as human beings, not on what God does. God works with us only as long as we keep working with Him.

It will NEVER be because of HIm. It will always be because of men. That is why I am going to be judged for what I do. God is not going to judge Himself.

No question Satan does desire that I leave Christ and come to follow HIM. Christians are the only field he has to work in since he has all the rest. He works very hard to shake you loose. Unfortunately, He is very successful. Which is why scripture has so many exhortantion to remain faithful, Gives us all the tools to know and do so that we do not fall.

But you are very correct. The decision is all on the shoulders of man. That is why God created us free. He wanted a creature that would respond to Him freely, not under any force or compulsion. What kind of love is forced loved? What glory is there for God if man can only do what God forced or created him to do. Man would simply be a tool no different than a tree, and even worse than animals. Yet He created us in His Image, to be the highest form of creatures who could communicate and join with Him, who has a rational soul. He created us specifically to do His work. We were created to be prophets, priests and kings over this earth. To have dominion over it but to use it properly, sacramentally so that we can bring both ourselves and this world to God as a living sacrifice.

the decision is all upon man which is why God can judge us justly. He simply mets out the result of our decision . In order to have a human being freely in communion with Him, to freely love HIm He created man free, and knew the risk that many human beings would reject Him.

You believe you could lose your salvation through some measure of sin I think from what I've read. That belief seems to help keep you in check. But to say someone else becomes lazy in their faith because they are secure in their salvation is not for me or you to say. Most baptist have known have been christians for years. They believe OSAS and yet they are some of the most faithful servants to God, and I am not baptist. I not anything by denomination and I don't believe Calvin either.

It may amaze you but I'll tell you just a little. Once I believed I had lost my salvation because I could not repent for something I'd done. I was not sorry and I would still do the same thing again. So I couldn't be forgiven, Not God's fault just mine. I walked away. I did not deny Him nor my need for Him but I just couldn't in honesty repent. God restored me about 3yrs ago now but it was a long six month process. Satan was really worken it. Telling me who was I kidding, I couldn't be forgiven...I finally told God that even if I still would not be saved I would live for Him anyway because it was so much better. It was all uphill from there. About a month later I received a more complete understanding of the grace that Paul taught. The veil was lifted and I saw the Father through the Son. A loving Father. God has restored me. This new understanding has produced just the opposite of what you describe. My salvation is about what Jesus did at the cross. It was a complete and finished work. If I try to help Him with that in anyway I have made His work of no effect in my life. I live faithful to Him (I'm not saying that my (fleshy soul does not sin!), in joy, and peace. I find I must be getting at better at putting on the mind of Christ. Now I obey Him completely out of love for Him. I WANT to please Him always in all things. So you see the knowledge of His abundant grace has actually worked just the way He says it does. "So shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" This is what was said when Paul taught grace. It was just "Too Good to be true News"
The Commandment stirs up sin.
The grace of God, Jesus, gives life.

 

[smaller]

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

 

[Deborah13]

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Glory to God. The Truth shall set you free.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

You believe you could lose your salvation through some measure of sin I think from what I've read. That belief seems to help keep you in check. But to say someone else becomes lazy in their faith because they are secure in their salvation is not for me or you to say. Most baptist have known have been christians for years. They believe OSAS and yet they are some of the most faithful servants to God, and I am not baptist. I not anything by denomination and I don't believe Calvin either.

Why are we comparing someones faith. It has nothing to do with particular faith of persons.
It has to do with what scripture actually teaches. OSAS as a doctrine does not exist in scripture. Never has and never will. That you believe such is entirely up to you. That some actually practice it as if it does not exist, that is great.

My salvation is about what Jesus did at the cross. It was a complete and finished work. If I try to help Him with that in anyway I have made His work of no effect in my life.

YOu are speaking about a totally different aspect of salvation when you refer to what Christ did. YOu are not even speaking about one's personal relationship with Christ. Christ did nothing on the Cross that would save you individually, except made it possible again.

What Christ did on the Cross saved the universe, the world, mankind from death and sin. It is because of Christ's work on the Cross that God can again call you and all men to repentance so that you can have a relationship with Him.

The salvation you are speaking about is the Gift of love and mercy He gave to all mankind. It is why He is called the Savior of the world. All men will recieve the benefits of this gift. YOu don't need to believe it in order to recieve it.
However, God created man for a purpose. That purpose was to be in union for an eternity, working with HIm. When Adam sinned, the judgement was death, dust to dust. It precluded God ever having an eternal union with any man. Christ came to restore life to the world, an eternal existance, to defeat death, the power of satan, so that God and man could again enter into an eternal union.

But that union is not forced, compelled in any way. Man can come and go as one desires. That is why Christ will have a judgement when He returns.

If I try to help Him with that in anyway I have made His work of no effect in my life.

First, you nor any man can effect or affect anything Christ did on the Cross. What you are required to do for your individual salvation does not impact anything Christ did on the Cross. The very purpose of your existance was to work with Him in this world. This is precisely what Adam was doing.

So, from your comments you don't even understand why Christ saved you in the first place. YOu think it was all Him in relation to your personal salvation and it has nothing to do with your personal salvation. YOur relationship is based all on the work you are doing in His name. It is the purpose of our existance. The work was created for us to do. We are not idle objects but individuals that not only love and obey, but will also do His will. OUr salvation depends on our faith, on doing His will. God does not do it for you, nor will He prevent you from not doing it.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,



Why are we comparing someones faith. It has nothing to do with particular faith of persons.
It has to do with what scripture actually teaches. OSAS as a doctrine does not exist in scripture. Never has and never will. That you believe such is entirely up to you. That some actually practice it as if it does not exist, that is great.



YOu are speaking about a totally different aspect of salvation when you refer to what Christ did. YOu are not even speaking about one's personal relationship with Christ. Christ did nothing on the Cross that would save you individually, except made it possible again.

What Christ did on the Cross saved the universe, the world, mankind from death and sin. It is because of Christ's work on the Cross that God can again call you and all men to repentance so that you can have a relationship with Him.

The salvation you are speaking about is the Gift of love and mercy He gave to all mankind. It is why He is called the Savior of the world. All men will recieve the benefits of this gift. YOu don't need to believe it in order to recieve it.
However, God created man for a purpose. That purpose was to be in union for an eternity, working with HIm. When Adam sinned, the judgement was death, dust to dust. It precluded God ever having an eternal union with any man. Christ came to restore life to the world, an eternal existance, to defeat death, the power of satan, so that God and man could again enter into an eternal union.

But that union is not forced, compelled in any way. Man can come and go as one desires. That is why Christ will have a judgement when He returns.

First, you nor any man can effect or affect anything Christ did on the Cross. What you are required to do for your individual salvation does not impact anything Christ did on the Cross. The very purpose of your existance was to work with Him in this world. This is precisely what Adam was doing.

So, from your comments you don't even understand why Christ saved you in the first place. YOu think it was all Him in relation to your personal salvation and it has nothing to do with your personal salvation. YOur relationship is based all on the work you are doing in His name. It is the purpose of our existance. The work was created for us to do. We are not idle objects but individuals that not only love and obey, but will also do His will. OUr salvation depends on our faith, on doing His will. God does not do it for you, nor will He prevent you from not doing it.

I've already exposed my heart I will not debate my life with Christ.

 

[Cassian]

I've already exposed my heart I will not debate my life with Christ.

and neither is required for the discussion.

 

[Danus]

Danus,



Because it is a false security. It does not lead to a life of willingness to increase, to become more conformed to His Image. If nothing you actually do effects your salvation in the future, then one becomes lazy, stagnant in faith, and actually might lose faith not even knowing they lost faith because they believe it cannot happen.



My faith has nothing to do with the discussion. But everyone that does walk away is because their faith was not strong, or they willingly gave it up for the pleasures of this world. The journey became to difficult, to arduous and they rather desidered the short lived pleasures of this world.

NOt a very good one. It could also be one like the foolish virgins, who know of the way, but decided to live frivolously, and ran short of time. The master came earlier than they thought and were unprepared for his coming.

When one becomes a believer, they are not all of a sudden perfected in faith and are the most mature christians alive. Our faith grows, matures, but even many who matured and were faithful for many years of their life can still walk away for many different reasons.

You seem to think that man, a human being, when He becomes a believer is living a risk free life and in some shelterd coccoon where all the evil, sin and satan just do not exist. If Adam can fall, who was not even sinful as yet, and did not have a sinful nature, could fall, why do you think you can do better than he?

It may be for some people which is why they fall. But God is the ONLY thing we can count on. He will always keep His promises, but man is the weak link in the relationship. The relationship is hinged on what we do as human beings, not on what God does. God works with us only as long as we keep working with Him.

It will NEVER be because of HIm. It will always be because of men. That is why I am going to be judged for what I do. God is not going to judge Himself.

No question Satan does desire that I leave Christ and come to follow HIM. Christians are the only field he has to work in since he has all the rest. He works very hard to shake you loose. Unfortunately, He is very successful. Which is why scripture has so many exhortantion to remain faithful, Gives us all the tools to know and do so that we do not fall.

But you are very correct. The decision is all on the shoulders of man. That is why God created us free. He wanted a creature that would respond to Him freely, not under any force or compulsion. What kind of love is forced loved? What glory is there for God if man can only do what God forced or created him to do. Man would simply be a tool no different than a tree, and even worse than animals. Yet He created us in His Image, to be the highest form of creatures who could communicate and join with Him, who has a rational soul. He created us specifically to do His work. We were created to be prophets, priests and kings over this earth. To have dominion over it but to use it properly, sacramentally so that we can bring both ourselves and this world to God as a living sacrifice.

the decision is all upon man which is why God can judge us justly. He simply mets out the result of our decision . In order to have a human being freely in communion with Him, to freely love HIm He created man free, and knew the risk that many human beings would reject Him.

I'm convinced that the idea of security is a false one for you. I think you have made a very powerful argument. Well put. Well worded & I'm sorry you are not secure in your salvation. I wanted to sway you to know you are, but It seems i failed to make an impact.

All I have to offer is my own testimony & the gospel. I'm convinced you don't care much for that and you already have the word of God all figured out to tell you that you have no hope just a big maybe. So with that I declare you the winner of our debate. Congratulations.

 

[Mitspa]

I've already exposed my heart I will not debate my life with Christ.

The Lord told us not to cast our pearls! He did that for a reason
You have shown to any honest person that salvation is not a matter of who can quote scriptures, or twist them:eeeekkk But the savlation issue is in the heart, God made it that way Here is Salvation....Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?
"For His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" Its always been a heart issue and it always will be! God Bless you!- Mitspa

 

[Danus]

The Lord told us not to cast our pearls! He did that for a reason

Thank you Mitspa. Probably the wised thing said here.

 

[smaller]

Cassian may be old school orthodox but that doesn't make him swine...come on.

The E.O./Cassian does seem to have some very strange ideas though about God in Christ not saving anyone in particular.

I am a little surprised a couple of you left that unattended as it's pretty easy to counter. The EO and orthodoxy in general believe that sect adherence to their distributed salvation is a general participatory 'benefit' of membership, though they don't actually claim any of their membership are actually saved. Only that they might be. Quite odd, I know.

s

 

[Danus]

Cassian may be old school orthodox but that doesn't make him swine...come on.

The E.O./Cassian does seem to have some very strange ideas though about God in Christ not saving anyone in particular.

I am a little surprised a couple of you left that unattended as it's pretty easy to counter. The EO and orthodoxy in general believe that sect adherence to their distributed salvation is a general participatory 'benefit' of membership, though they don't actually claim any of their membership are actually saved. Only that they might be. Quite odd, I know.

s

That's not (The swine part) what's being said specifically. The sentiment is not to waste time espousing something that is going trampled on anyway.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

I'm convinced that the idea of security is a false one for you. I think you have made a very powerful argument. Well put. Well worded & I'm sorry you are not secure in your salvation. I wanted to sway you to know you are, but It seems i failed to make an impact.

You have also seemed to miss the whole intent of an apologetic discussion. It is not about your faith or my faith.

It is about what scripture means. It is actually about the intent of all believers. Doctrine is not made on your specific experience. It surely is not made by your personal interpretation either.

I am very secure in my salvation. But I cannot guarantee it because I do not know the future. God never promises to guarantee my salvation. It depends on my desires and I don't know my desires beyond what they are today.

Again, it is not about winners or losers. YOu have presented your interpretation which is quite meaningless because it has no meaning for anyone else. Christ's Gospel was given once, for all, for all time. It is not based on a person's faith, but is God's revelation to us and how He wants us to live.

What I have stressed is that the Gospel of Christ, as it was given in the beginning, has never had a doctrine known as "eternal security" NOt a single Christian in the first 1500 years was ever taught "eternal security".

The concept is a man made one, and is derived from the personal interpretations of man by the name of John Calvin. It was left to future proponents of his theology that coined and defined the concept of "eternal security'. As with all false teachings, they come and they go, but the Gospel of Christ continues unchanged as it has for 2000 years.

A much bigger problem for the view is that all others, and they outnumber the reformed group, who use sola scriptura to establish their own interpretations do not accept the teaching as valid either. The consequences of having at least more than one interpretation invalidates the protestant notion that scripture is actually authoritative. That it is the sole source of faith and practice. It has become the sole source of any and all faiths and practices depending on the interpreter.

 

[Danus]

Danus,



You have also seemed to miss the whole intent of an apologetic discussion. It is not about your faith or my faith.

It is about what scripture means. It is actually about the intent of all believers. Doctrine is not made on your specific experience. It surely is not made by your personal interpretation either.

I am very secure in my salvation. But I cannot guarantee it because I do not know the future. God never promises to guarantee my salvation. It depends on my desires and I don't know my desires beyond what they are today.

Again, it is not about winners or losers. YOu have presented your interpretation which is quite meaningless because it has no meaning for anyone else. Christ's Gospel was given once, for all, for all time. It is not based on a person's faith, but is God's revelation to us and how He wants us to live.

What I have stressed is that the Gospel of Christ, as it was given in the beginning, has never had a doctrine known as "eternal security" NOt a single Christian in the first 1500 years was ever taught "eternal security".

The concept is a man made one, and is derived from the personal interpretations of man by the name of John Calvin. It was left to future proponents of his theology that coined and defined the concept of "eternal security'. As with all false teachings, they come and they go, but the Gospel of Christ continues unchanged as it has for 2000 years.

A much bigger problem for the view is that all others, and they outnumber the reformed group, who use sola scriptura to establish their own interpretations do not accept the teaching as valid either. The consequences of having at least more than one interpretation invalidates the protestant notion that scripture is actually authoritative. That it is the sole source of faith and practice. It has become the sole source of any and all faiths and practices depending on the interpreter.

I started a hole thread just for you. I laid out scripture and 101 points based on my theology and you did not touch a one of them. I even used the KjV.

Here is that thread if you want to take a detail stab at it instead of just saying stuff. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45168&page=5
I've hardly seen a detail of any scripture form you in your argument. I gave plenty in that thread, with my points. If your worthy of what you believe you'll take the the points I made and do something with them. Let me know and I'll join you there. Quote some of it and we'll get started.

Danus,
Doctrine is not made on your specific experience. It surely is not made by your personal interpretation either.

I am very secure in my salvation. But I cannot guarantee it because I do not know the future. God never promises to guarantee my salvation. It depends on my desires and I don't know my desires beyond what they are today.

I can show you in the bible where God does guarantee the security of the saved. I showed you in that thread. You even said you agreed with it. You said you agreed with the verses.

So here you go. Proof that the saved are secure in their salvation. 16 points. Let's see your argument in the scriptures and points you tell me on each what the bible is telling you.

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

2. The believer is born of God.

John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.

John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.
John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

6. Believer are God’s sheep. John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.

John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)

8. The believer is known of God.

John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.

John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

13. The believer is not condemned.

John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

14. The believer shall never thirst.

John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.

John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

 

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What I have stressed is that the Gospel of Christ, as it was given in the beginning, has never had a doctrine known as "eternal security" NOt a single Christian in the first 1500 years was ever taught "eternal security".

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

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The notion that orthodoxy has everything right is contrary to the text as well.

The 'reasons' for various separations are multi-fold.

As it pertains to this subject there assuredly are a multitude of scriptures outright stating the security of salvation. The only option on those myriad of texts is denial of same.

That's not an option in some eyes. Requests to deny Gods Words are not legitimate faithful requests by anyone regardless of what flag they fly.

In orthodoxy land they go much further than that with their group prescribed authority that answers to no one, not even the scriptures. They too are sinners seeing like all believers, only in part. They claim sole ownership and all interpretive rights to scriptures. As if that stops God from drawing any in faith.

Ultimately the demand from orthodoxy is join them (or any of the other orthodox one true churches of which there are at least 2 others making the same claims) or potentially/outright eternally die as there is no salvation apart from them. Salvation they don't even know they themselves have.

Yeah, real faith working through love there isn't it?

By their fruits...easily known. Walking talking eternal death to their fellow believers sect.

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