The False Security of Eternal Security

[Cassian]

I know the particular scripture you are referring to, that the angels rejoice when one is saved. However, do you not think that when a child of God gets out of the pig wallow they Don't rejoice. The Father did with all his household, it seems to me this would include the angels. They rejoice in all things that are of God.

Would you rejoice if a fellow child of God were to come out of their pig wallow into obedience to God? Or would you sternly compare their walk to your's, as the other brother did?

"Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice."

Deborah13,

I know the particular scripture you are referring to, that the angels rejoice when one is saved. However, do you not think that when a child of God gets out of the pig wallow they Don't rejoice. The Father did with all his household, it seems to me this would include the angels. They rejoice in all things that are of God.[/qu7ote] but being in the pig wallow is a lost state of being, It is outside of Christ. They are rejoicing because the lost was found, was returned to the fold. YOu cannot be saved outside of the fold. Very simple scriptural truth.

Would you rejoice if a fellow child of God were to come out of their pig wallow into obedience to God? Or would you sternly compare their walk to your's, as the other brother did?

being lost or our of the fold is not being a child of God. They are coming back into that state by repentance and seeking forgiveness.

 

[Mitspa]

He died for you as well as every single human being that will ever live. He restored life to the world, to mankind. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. He overcame the fall, the condemnation of Adam.

How many ways can one say it, but He did not save you as an individual. He did not save you unto a relationship. He saved you and every human being so that you could have a relationship with Him. That relationship is by faith, not by the Cross. The Cross made it possible.

If the Cross saved you as an individual, then faith is mere theater and worthless, as well as the relationship.

Yes I was saved at the Cross of Christ Jesus! Me!
Gal 2:19

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

For by the Cross all my sins was placed upon Him. Everyone of them. without His Cross none can be saved.

Rom 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Now if your faith is not in His Blood you are not in faith!

 

[Cassian]

Osgiliath,

That is NOT scriptural. Show me where the Scriptures say Jesus Christ's work on the Cross was only a potential salvation, not an actual one. Chapters and verses? You can't, because it is nothing but man's imaginary religious fables. Man insists on being "CO-SAVIOR", rather than giving Christ ALL of the glory!

YOu are misunderstanding what I have stated.

Christ's death on the Cross did in fact save you, no potential, but Christ did not save you as an individual. He saved the world, mankind from death through His Incarnation. It is not just scripturally impossible to save you individually from the Cross it is a theological impssibility. Christ assumed our mortal human nature. This natue is consubstantial with every single human being. When Christ arose from the dead, He in fact, saved every single soul from death. This is the solution to the fall. Man cannot save himself from the fall.

The texts for that start with Gen 3:15, Gen 3:19, Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18, Rom 5:12, Rom 3:24, I Cor 15:13-23, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Heb 2:12-16, I John 3:8, John 4:42, I John 4:14, Acts 24:15, Rev 20:12-13.

This salvation is all of God. It is God's great gift of mercy to mankind. It is a gift all men will recieve. YOu cannot do anything to effect it, or affect it in any way.
However, our individual salvation, the relationship that God calls all men to enter which is the purpose of our very existance and why Christ saved the world from satan, from death, was to have a personal relationship.

that relationship constitutes your individual salvation. YOu can either accept God's call to be in a relationship with Him or reject Him. The difference is heaven or hell. Very simple scriptural truth. II Cor 5:17 tells us directly that we are co-reconcilers with Christ.

How do the Scriptures say we become converted?
"Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness ["His goodness;" not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God's 'leading' is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).
Where is "man's will" in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not man's fabled 'free will.'

You have even missed the concept of our salvation through faith. God leads all men to repentance. It is specifically our free will that determines if one will accept that call or reject it. God cannot make you believe, no more than satan can make you sin. It is ONLY you that makes the choices. It is why you will be judged for what you do.

"No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: 'drag'] him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).
This verse is plain: No man CAN…come to Christ of HIS OWN will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.

YOu are correct. God is the initiator, from creating us, savings us from death, giving all men all the gifts we need to find Him. God is making sure that no man will have an excuse that He did not have the chance to know Him. Man actually needs to actively reject God. Nothing is passive. Which is again why man will be judged, not God. The HOly Spirit is calling all men to repentance, because God desires that all come to know HIm.

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
"I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ's will, not man's will.

this verse does not help your view either. This verse is Jesus, the whole section from vs 1-17, is specifically for the disciples.

"We are justified by the faith of Christ." (Galatians 2:16)

this is the first text that is relevant to the topic. [/quote] the correct wording is faith in Jesus Christ. Which is what permits anyone to enter into the Body of Christ, it is called justification by faith. That is the relationship by which you as an individual will be saved. This relationship determines whether one will spend enternity with God or apart from Him.

We are saved by the committment of both. God will ONLY save you through faith as long as you believe. As long as you follow HIm, as long as you deny yourself and take up your cross to believe, follow Him and remain faithful and endure to the end will you inherit eternal life with HIm.

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).
According to God's Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.

Free will is written all over this text. It says in my Bible and as you wrote it, "he that abides in me". It never says God forces or manipulates you to abide in Him. Never does it even imply that God is doing the believing, the following, the seeing, the obedience. That is all in your hands, not his.

"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11).
Is this man's part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus "Lord."

God specifically created you to make that choice. He gave you a will, a rational soul to use. God does not do your will for you. Again, it is why you will be jduged, not God. If God was the initiator of your faith, then all men would also be saved individually. No man would be in hell, since God desires that all men come to know Him. He desires that none perish.

"But the natural man [still being carnal-minded] receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:12-14).
God's word tells us that the natural, carnal mind of man, [all mankind—the human race], cannot love or obey God. For it: "receives not the things of the spirit," "neither is it ABLE."
The natural man cannot even make a decision to SEEK God, much less believe and have faith in Christ:

I think you should check the context again. This text is being directed at those who have not yet believed and thus cannot understand the fruits of the spirit. However, believing is not one of them. All men have the ability to believe, all men have the capability to believe. God is making sure that no man will have an excuse which Paul makes quite clear in Rom 1:18-24.

The natural man has no idea that he even needs God! So, if no one seeks after God on their own, why do some believe and have faith?

this is the fallacy of your theory of "total depravity". man does not do anything alone. Man was created with an innate sense of God, called a conscience. Man was created in God's image which makes man a bridge between the divine and material. That is the concept of body and soul. Animals do not have this capability as man. God, again, is calling all men to repent. Man must make an active choice NOT to be in a relationship with HIm.

Do you think you've "achieved" your own salvation yourself by YOUR OWN merit, by your act of believing in Him? If you do, you are boasting:
"For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)
According to orthodox Christianity, the cross of Christ never saved anybody; the cross only saves those who decide to be saved. However, a believer cannot claim credit for his or her ability to believe! (Quite true, I'm afraid. Re-read Philippians 1:29 and Romans 12:3. The first verse says that our belief in Christ is graciously granted us, the second that our very faith is a gift).

There is never any thing to boast about anyway, since all things we have are from God, including our free will. What we will be judged on is how we used those gifts. Some, like the 1 talent man, buried His gift, his faith, and was found wanting and condemned.

Cassian, your reasoning might seem logical to you, and it may be "the popular" belief of orthodox Christianity, but it totally contradicts and flat-out denies countless Scriptures. You continue to proclaim things to be true that are totally contrary to the Word of God.

so far, you have not even addressed anything that refutes what I stated. In fact, your first several paragraphs were not even on the topic which is why you misunderstood what scripture states. The logic has nothing to do with me. It has been the teaching of historical Christianity from the beginning.

There have been only four false teachings regarding the INcarnation and they were rejected. There has never been even a false teaching that arose in 1500 years opposing the concept of man's free will, individual salvation by and through faith.

Only when man, as a result of the reformation and the beginning of the practice of sola scriptura has man developed many differing views on any subject, any text one cares to offer.

You continue to proclaim things to be true that are totally contrary to the Word of God.

That you have not even addressed. All you addressed is that what I stated conflicts with your particular interpretation. I see nothing, no evidence from the early Church or anyone for that matter, who holds your view.

 

[Cassian]

Yes I was saved at the Cross of Christ Jesus! Me!
Gal 2:19

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

For by the Cross all my sins was placed upon Him. Everyone of them. without His Cross none can be saved.

Rom 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Now if your faith is not in His Blood you are not in faith!

Not a single one of these texts says that you are saved, INDIVIDUALLY, by the Cross. Every single one has faith, or by faith, or through faith.

Not a single one says you live in HIM other than by and through faith.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

this one is referring to Christ overcoming death by his Incarnation and resurrection. It is speaking to those Jews at that time who thought that works could save them from death, which, of course, would make Christ's work meaningless or at least not necessary.

For by the Cross all my sins was placed upon Him. Everyone of them. without His Cross none can be saved.

this text is specifically referring to the possibility because without the Cross, faith or believing would be moot and none would be saved. It is the sole reason man needed Christ, to overcome death and sin.

Thus you are not being saved as an individual by the Cross, but the Cross made your individual salvation possible because Christ saved you from the fall, gave life to you and all mortal bodies so that each human being could decide for themselves whether they would live with God or apart from Him.

 

[Mitspa]

Not a single one of these texts says that you are saved, INDIVIDUALLY, by the Cross. Every single one has faith, or by faith, or through faith.

Not a single one says you live in HIM other than by and through faith.

Yes it does!



Joh 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Forever" is forever

 

[Cassian]

Yes it does!



Joh 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17

Eventhe Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Forever" is forever

First, the key active word is "may" abide forever. That is a contingency. The contingency is our faith, our faithfulness to our committement to Christ by and through faith.

John 14:17 surely is not something we get from the Cross. It clearly says it comes by recieving. It is actually speaking to and about believers and the ONLY way one can become a believer is by and through faith, not as a direct result of the Cross.

 

[Ramaweh]

I believe in eternal security for the most part. I believe when God makes a promise he keeps it even when we fail our part. I believe the Holy Spirit is the sign of that promised salvation. I can only think of one scenario where this would change and I relate it to marriage. If God is like the husband and we are like the wife, and we ask for a divorce, it must be mutual, so basically God must consent to our leaving, and await our return. I trust when he saves, he already knows the outcome and has assurance in our inevitable sanctification even if we have to pass through fire in the next life to get there. However, we have given up our rights when we marry or are saved for our new partner, Christ. Does he actually divorce anyone? I'm not sure.

 

[Mitspa]

First, the key active word is "may" abide forever. That is a contingency. The contingency is our faith, our faithfulness to our committement to Christ by and through faith.

John 14:17 surely is not something we get from the Cross. It clearly says it comes by recieving. It is actually speaking to and about believers and the ONLY way one can become a believer is by and through faith, not as a direct result of the Cross.

Look !I know I am saved "forever" I know I am saved By His Work on the Cross and faith in His Blood

God only has one "brand" of salvation, thats the one marked ETERNAL. Now If you have been sold a generic brand of salvation? which expires with your strength. I suggest you find the "real" kind! purchased by the Blood of God Himself! Based upon His obedience

Rom 5:16



And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17



For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18



Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19



For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[smaller]

Yes, Christians, Christ's Church, was given by the Holy Spirit to the saints in the beginning. The teaching of the Incarnation and the salvfic content has not changed from the beginning. It is God's revelation to man as He gave it, not according to the best interpretation of man.

Everyone has their own reflections on what was already written. The claim that any particular sect has thee only accurate reflection is a false claim.

All men have a measure of faith. When they hear God's word, in any form they can reject it or accept it through that faith.

Again, that is only what you see. There are many scriptures that will show that not to be the case that your sect rejects. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8 and 2 Cor. 4:4 come to mind as examples that reject your sects notions.

Man allways has a rationalization to the Truth. Man does not like the Truth because they prefer darkness. To say that the Holy Spirit is fallible says a lot about you.

The Spirit and the Word are in full accord. The readers however all read, see and understand only in part.

That is how it was given. ONE Truth, given by the Holy Spirit. Not ever has it been taught that there are many truths, depending on man's interpretation.

Yeah, sure. That's why there are 3 orthodox sects all making the same 'one true church' claims, severe disputes on an abundance of items and all claiming the others heretics.

No thank you is the proper response.

ONLY one way is given in scripture. ONLY man has devised hundreds of other ways.

Yeah, except your team right?

Which is seems that I have explained it precisely as they taught it and as it has always been understood. I don't see any refutation of what I stated based on the Apostles teachings.

What the Apostles taught and what your sect teaches doesn't always equate.

s

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

Look !I know I am saved "forever" I know I am saved By His Work on the Cross and faith in His Blood

First, we are not even speaking about whether you are saved or not. We are discussing what scripture says, and means.

Secondly, the statement is actually correct as far as doctrine goes. Christ saved you as a human being, as He did all others by His Incarnation, death and resurrection.

YOu are also being saved by and through faith. Two, very distinct different things.

God only has one "brand" of salvation, thats the one marked ETERNAL. Now If you have been sold a generic brand of salvation? which expires with your strength. I suggest you find the "real" kind! purchased by the Blood of God Himself! Based upon His obedience

What Christ did has nothing to do with my strength, in fact, I cannot effect or affect anything Christ did for the world.
However I do have a part to play in the relationship that I entered by faith and am being saved through my faith. God is not saving me in spite of myself. He does not save you unilaterally. YOu can give up on your relationship. Whether you go to heaven or hell is determined on that relationship. The fact you have eternal life, was the gift that Christ gave all men. All men will be raised the last day to stand in judgment regarding what they did with the call to come.

Rom 5 is speaking about Christ reconciling the world. Giving life to all men. All men were condemned to death by one, and life would come to all through Christ. If not for this life, you could not be able to live in HIm. or reign in that life He gave. YOu reign with HIm by and through faith.

Rom 5:18 could not be more plain. It is an equation that Paul uses again in I Cor 15:22. He actually uses it in Rom 3:24 and the reason for making all men righteous was to enable Christ to be just and the justifier of those who have faith. Again, quite clear. You as an individual are not being saved by the Cross. YOur individual soul is being saved by your choice, and freedeom to believe, to follow, to abide in Christ.

Where are the texts that actually support your assertion that you are saved as an individual from the Cross? And if so, what is the purpose of faith?

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

Everyone has their own reflections on what was already written. The claim that any particular sect has thee only accurate reflection is a false claim.

any other religion must of necessity say that otherwise there is no legitimacy to any other religion.

However, Scripture clearly refutes your statment in relation to the revelation that the Holy spirit gave in the beginning.

Again, that is only what you see. There are many scriptures that will show that not to be the case that your sect rejects. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8 and 2 Cor. 4:4 come to mind as examples that reject your sects notions.

Again, man needs to rationalize scripture out of existance to make a false teaching appear correct. The text you cited don't even address the issue.
It should be quite obvious that man, using prooftext, out of context verses, can make scripture say anything they devise to support an erroneous premise. However it is quite difficult to refute the Truth, especially when it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years unchanged by any man. Only when man assumed sole authority over scripture was he able to impose his own interpretations upon scripture.

Yeah, sure. That's why there are 3 orthodox sects all making the same 'one true church' claims, severe disputes on an abundance of items and all claiming the others heretics.
No thank you is the proper response.

Obviously you never took the time to be a good Berean. If more than one makes the claim, there should be evidence to prove one and disprove the others. But, if one is more interested in their own interpretation, then one must not recognize that there might even be Truth, that the Holy Spirit can actually live up to His word in preserving Christ's Gospel and His Body.

YOu are using the brilliant tool of satan, divide and conquer. But at the same time you have lost all footing for yourself. You become part of the confusion, division that he is creating.

Yeah, except your team right?

NO, Christ's Gospel and His Church. It does not depend on me in the least.

What the Apostles taught and what your sect teaches doesn't always equate.

empty and non substantive assertion.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,

I know the particular scripture you are referring to, that the angels rejoice when one is saved. However, do you not think that when a child of God gets out of the pig wallow they Don't rejoice. The Father did with all his household, it seems to me this would include the angels. They rejoice in all things that are of God.[/qu7ote] but being in the pig wallow is a lost state of being, It is outside of Christ. They are rejoicing because the lost was found, was returned to the fold. YOu cannot be saved outside of the fold. Very simple scriptural truth.
being lost or our of the fold is not being a child of God. They are coming back into that state by repentance and seeking forgiveness.

If he was lost then why did you say that the angels rejoicing was unscriptural?

See Cassian, I being to think you are double minded or at least just argue for the sake of argueing

 

[farouk]

The angels rejoicing is linked with the sinner repenting. And we know that Godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of, as Paul says.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

First, we are not even speaking about whether you are saved or not. We are discussing what scripture says, and means.


What Christ did has nothing to do with my strength

See I know what the scripture means, to say" I have Faith in Christ Jesus" is not about a picture in a "church". Its not about some monk or man throwing some water on me. Its about me KNOWING Him "by receiving His Spirit" and all that HE HAS DONE to secure my salavation. My faith is In a LIVING REDEEMER! I trust in Him to keep me. Thats real faith!

Heb 7:22

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



He is my strength!:biglol

 

[Cassian]

See I know what the scripture means, to say" I have Faith in Christ Jesus" is not about a picture in a "church". Its not about some monk or man throwing some water on me. Its about me KNOWING Him "by receiving His Spirit" and all that HE HAS DONE to secure my salavation. My faith is In a LIVING REDEEMER! I trust in Him to keep me. Thats real faith!

Heb 7:22

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



He is my strength!:biglol

YOu fail to realize that scripture does not take its meaning from your experience.

Secondly, you have yet to address the assertion you made regarding being saved from the Cross. YOu posted texts that have no evidence of you being saved by the Cross as an individual. The last one is based on faith again, and the fact that He makes intercession for believers. Obviously, a believer was not saved on the Cross then.

 

[smaller]

smaller,
any other religion must of necessity say that otherwise there is no legitimacy to any other religion.

I don't play that game. None of us are perfect or see perfectly. I will remain on the fact that those who have called upon our Lord in faith shall be saved regardless of their present 'alliances' with any set of partially sighted imperfect doctrines.

If our 'eternal security' is based on imperfect sight and imperfect works which obviously we 'all' are presently partaking in and 'that' is the basis of our standing, then a very sorry standing it is by open facts.

However, Scripture clearly refutes your statment in relation to the revelation that the Holy spirit gave in the beginning.

And you and your group merely parade about with the same imperfect sight we all have and demand others to bow to same. It's very manipulative to say only your reflection is the legit one. Sorry, it ain't. There are much better avenues to reflect upon.

Your imperfect doctrines and imperfect sights do not keep God in Christ from loving those who have called upon Him in faith regardless of your intentions to diminish that faith.

Again, man needs to rationalize scripture out of existance to make a false teaching appear correct.

We are all called by God to 'reason' with Him through His Word. If you think your group has cornered the market on the matters I can only say you more than likely haven't and won't stop faith toward God in Christ.

Your sect demands others to throw away all their reasoning and submit to their own imperfect reflections. To me that will remain a form of arrogance, pride and manipulations of other believers and nothing more than that. I also think God in Christ will save you regardless of such ill sighted intentions.

If I could only have fellowship with people who saw perfectly and identically faith would be a pretty sorry measure and also forces disassociation with other people. I don't live there in that petty little world. Many sects are nothing more than social clubs anyway. Oh, look how good I am is just another game that believers play.

The text you cited don't even address the issue.

So says you. You have your reflections and I have mine. Yours is yours. You can't force me to bow to yours. And I could care less to make you bow to what I see. I have to deal with what I see.

It should be quite obvious that man, using prooftext, out of context verses, can make scripture say anything they devise to support an erroneous premise.

The perpetual delusion, and yes it is a delusion, is that your sect has a perfect reflection on every matter.

To me that is just plain idiocy. It's certainly not the truth.

If you 'think' you have found some benefit in potentially damning everyone who has called upon God in Christ in faith outside your sect who doesn't see like your officials to burn alive forever, knock yourself out.

Many will not take up that same cause because it is not true nor is it good for ones internals. That entire effort is nothing more than petty power mongering.

To me the wolves are shown in those efforts and those who fall victims don't and can't see it within themselves. And I consider that is exactly where God has manipulated you all to anyway. At some point God may even let you see how pathetic that really is.

However it is quite difficult to refute the Truth, especially when it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years unchanged by any man. Only when man assumed sole authority over scripture was he able to impose his own interpretations upon scripture.

Your little fantasy of sole authoritarian power is just a little story you took up in your own mind. You have been sold a bill of nonsense.

There is not a single man standing in a single one of your pulpits that can speak from the same shoes of Paul. Not a one. Not a single one. They are all religious deceivers in my eyes because they can not and are not even allowed to speak such truths. And I will still look upon all of them, you and all of your memberships as SAVED ANYWAY because that is the reflection that God in Christ has provided me from His Word.

Your intentions are nothing more than to call others into potential eternal damnation to other believers. That intention is written across your forehead like a brand.

I consider it to be an internal sickness that I won't participate in.

Obviously you never took the time to be a good Berean.

First you decry reasoning with the scriptures and then pull that trick? lol

Your sect doesn't allow the ignorant masses of their adherents to even engage in any reflection outside of what the sect allows.

If more than one makes the claim, there should be evidence to prove one and disprove the others. But, if one is more interested in their own interpretation, then one must not recognize that there might even be Truth, that the Holy Spirit can actually live up to His word in preserving Christ's Gospel and His Body.

Well, you can certainly try to rationalize how any given set of 'sect' sinners managed to come up with totally perfect reflections. To me that will remain common ignorance in people who can not even confront the fact that they have issues too.

YOu are using the brilliant tool of satan, divide and conquer. But at the same time you have lost all footing for yourself. You become part of the confusion, division that he is creating.

Oh please. I've already said that as far as I'm concerned I will view you and any other who has called upon the Lord in faith to save them as SAVED, period.

Tool of Satan in that sight? lol.

I just put the fruit God in Christ gave me on the table. And I expect to be called demonized for that effort. It comes with the territory.

s

 

[Danus]

I believe in eternal security for the most part. I believe when God makes a promise he keeps it even when we fail our part. I believe the Holy Spirit is the sign of that promised salvation. I can only think of one scenario where this would change and I relate it to marriage. If God is like the husband and we are like the wife, and we ask for a divorce, it must be mutual, so basically God must consent to our leaving, and await our return. I trust when he saves, he already knows the outcome and has assurance in our inevitable sanctification even if we have to pass through fire in the next life to get there. However, we have given up our rights when we marry or are saved for our new partner, Christ. Does he actually divorce anyone? I'm not sure.

I think your spot on.

 

[Cassian]

I don't play that game. None of us are perfect or see perfectly. I will remain on the fact that those who have called upon our Lord in faith shall be saved regardless of their present 'alliances' with any set of partially sighted imperfect doctrines.

If our 'eternal security' is based on imperfect sight and imperfect works which obviously we 'all' are presently partaking in and 'that' is the basis of our standing, then a very sorry standing it is by open facts.



And you and your group merely parade about with the same imperfect sight we all have and demand others to bow to same. It's very manipulative to say only your reflection is the legit one. Sorry, it ain't. There are much better avenues to reflect upon.

Your imperfect doctrines and imperfect sights do not keep God in Christ from loving those who have called upon Him in faith regardless of your intentions to diminish that faith.


We are all called by God to 'reason' with Him through His Word. If you think your group has cornered the market on the matters I can only say you more than likely haven't and won't stop faith toward God in Christ.

Your sect demands others to throw away all their reasoning and submit to their own imperfect reflections. To me that will remain a form of arrogance, pride and manipulations of other believers and nothing more than that. I also think God in Christ will save you regardless of such ill sighted intentions.

If I could only have fellowship with people who saw perfectly and identically faith would be a pretty sorry measure and also forces disassociation with other people. I don't live there in that petty little world. Many sects are nothing more than social clubs anyway. Oh, look how good I am is just another game that believers play.



So says you. You have your reflections and I have mine. Yours is yours. You can't force me to bow to yours. And I could care less to make you bow to what I see. I have to deal with what I see.


The perpetual delusion, and yes it is a delusion, is that your sect has a perfect reflection on every matter.

To me that is just plain idiocy. It's certainly not the truth.

If you 'think' you have found some benefit in potentially damning everyone who has called upon God in Christ in faith outside your sect who doesn't see like your officials to burn alive forever, knock yourself out.

Many will not take up that same cause because it is not true nor is it good for ones internals. That entire effort is nothing more than petty power mongering.

To me the wolves are shown in those efforts and those who fall victims don't and can't see it within themselves. And I consider that is exactly where God has manipulated you all to anyway. At some point God may even let you see how pathetic that really is.


Your little fantasy of sole authoritarian power is just a little story you took up in your own mind. You have been sold a bill of nonsense.

There is not a single man standing in a single one of your pulpits that can speak from the same shoes of Paul. Not a one. Not a single one. They are all religious deceivers in my eyes because they can not and are not even allowed to speak such truths. And I will still look upon all of them, you and all of your memberships as SAVED ANYWAY because that is the reflection that God in Christ has provided me from His Word.

Your intentions are nothing more than to call others into potential eternal damnation to other believers. That intention is written across your forehead like a brand.

I consider it to be an internal sickness that I won't participate in.



First you decry reasoning with the scriptures and then pull that trick? lol

Your sect doesn't allow the ignorant masses of their adherents to even engage in any reflection outside of what the sect allows.


Well, you can certainly try to rationalize how any given set of 'sect' sinners managed to come up with totally perfect reflections. To me that will remain common ignorance in people who can not even confront the fact that they have issues too.



Oh please. I've already said that as far as I'm concerned I will view you and any other who has called upon the Lord in faith to save them as SAVED, period.

Tool of Satan in that sight? lol.

I just put the fruit God in Christ gave me on the table. And I expect to be called demonized for that effort. It comes with the territory.

s

I didn't expect any real evidence to refute what I stated. All you have are empty rationalizations. In fact some of them are outright blasphemy of the work of the Holy Spirit. What is arrogant is that man actually thinks that they know more, and can better interpret a mere text than what the Holy Spirit gave to man.

I expect unsubstantive statements regarding scripture and its meaning when it really does not matter what a person believes regarding Christ, as long as the name Christ is evoked one is saved. Most of your posts never address the subject. You give a lot of non germaine philosophical jargon as in this post. Based on what you state Adolph Hitler is a saved man having been raised a Roman Catholic, baptised into the Church, was actually an alter boy at one time.

But I can understand your predicament of being part of the vast mass of doctrines, ideas, theories, religions of man created by man through the practice of sola scriptura. The confusion and division is becoming unfathomable making scripture itself null and void. Your comments actually confirm this phenonomon.

 

[smaller]

I didn't expect any real evidence to refute what I stated.

So you bow to certain constructs of your own liking like everyone else. The only claim you think you have is that your selection of what you bow to is the only avenue.

It is for you.

All you have are empty rationalizations.

As if you do any differently? Uh, no. Many people are just born into their sects and they can not see any differently. Too bad for them in some cases. Lucky salvation I call it.

In fact some of them are outright blasphemy of the work of the Holy Spirit. What is arrogant is that man actually thinks that they know more, and can better interpret a mere text than what the Holy Spirit gave to man.

You've chosen by your own imperfect sights to bow to certain constructs. Again, so what? If you think they are perfect and that everyone else needs to do as you all imperfectly do you might expect some viewers to see the obvious imperfect constructs. The notion that the Holy Spirit only works in your particular sect is only true in your own sect jaded eyes Cassian.

s

 

[Cassian]

Smaller,

So you bow to certain constructs of your own liking like everyone else. The only claim you think you have is that your selection of what you bow to is the only avenue.
It is for you.

precisely, but it is based on scripture which is the context this discussion. It is based on the historical evidence of the meaning of scripture. It is based on the historical witness of the work of the Holy Spirit in time as scripture states. It is based on the fact that the Gospel as it was given has not changed in 2000 years. History also shows that man has attempted to impose his interpretations upon God's revelation to man but none have suceeded.

As if you do any differently? Uh, no. Many people are just born into their sects and they can not see any differently. Too bad for them in some cases. Lucky salvation I call it.

which is not true for me. But being born into something or not born into something else is immaterial when it comes to Christianity.

You've chosen by your own imperfect sights to bow to certain constructs. Again, so what? If you think they are perfect and that everyone else needs to do as you all imperfectly do you might expect some viewers to see the obvious imperfect constructs. The notion that the Holy Spirit only works in your particular sect is only true in your own sect jaded eyes Cassian.

Why I chose to do so is also immaterial. We are discussing what scripture means, what the revelation that was given to man by the Holy Spirit means.
If the Apostles did not really believe that what was given to them was actually correct and perfect, then why would they have taught it to the early Church. Why would the Holy Spirit give man incorrect and imperfect revelation? Christ thought it important that everyone believe on Him as He requires in His revelation. The choice to believe as He states is necessary is solely up to every individual. History also shows that more people have rejected Christ and His gospel than accepted it. Many men have devised their own philosophies rather than accept His Gospel as He revealed it to man.

Scripture says that the HOly Spirit is indwelled in believers and that the Holy Spirit only works within the Body of Christ which consists of those believers. scripture also states that the Holy spirit will not give revelation, prophecy to individuals for private interpretation. Yet this is the very basis of sola scriptura. Which is why man has substituted himself for Christ authority through the Holy Spirit and then attempts to reconstruct God's revelation through a mere text. Which is why you have the thousands of religions, faiths, theories of man about what a mere text might mean.

Hardly the Gospel given to the saints in the beginning and preserved by the Holy Spirit for all men, for all time.

Either God's revelation has meaning, a single meaning, or it really is quite meaningless. Then it can be every man for himself since there would be no actual Truth. Only what man can construct which is what is historically evidenced by protestantism.