THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually, I was being sarcastic, as you should have been able to determine by the icon.

However, I can tell you that a broken arm can be quite painful.

Ah, the saved suffer broken arms too. Even very wicked people do. Where is that suffering as a christian?

Denying self and choosing to be unselfish in your dealings with people. Being obedient to the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49).

I thought you were asking God to change you so that you WANT to do those those avoiding that suffering.

 

[heartwashed]

Ah, the saved suffer broken arms too. Even very wicked people do. Where is that suffering as a christian?

Yes, I am simply saying that in my own case, I suffer a broken arm because I asked the Lord to "seek out my wickedness until He finds none." (Psalms 10:15).

So, it is suffering that has everything to do with sanctification.

Also, consider this.

Heb 12:11, Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

I thought you were asking God to change you so that you WANT to do those those avoiding that suffering.

If I want to be obedient to those Sermons, then I will not suffer being forced to do that which is against my will. Is this what you are talking about? Do you believe that we must suffer in that we have to do what we don't want to do?

It is my experience that obedience is not a drudgery or anything that I don't want to do. God has given to me an obedient heart. So yes, I WANT to be obedient.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I am simply saying that in my own case, I suffer a broken arm because I asked the Lord to "seek out my wickedness until He finds none." (Psalms 10:15).

Where in scripture does God break arms to suss out wickedness??

So, it is suffering that has everything to do with sanctification.

Not necessarily. The wicked suffer too and are not sanctified thereby.

Also, consider this.

Heb 12:11, Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Do you think having a broken arm is chastising? What sins does that point out?

If I want to be obedient to those Sermons, then I will not suffer being forced to do that which is against my will.

That’s the problem. You won’t suffer by refusing your own will/desire. You won’t be forced to say “no” to your will.

Is this what you are talking about? Do you believe that we must suffer in that we have to do what we don't want to do?

Absolutely. That’s what the whole of the Bible is about. Jesus didn’t ever say, “it will be easy on your own will cause He’ll just make you want to do my will.” If you’re waiting for that to happen, you’ll wait your whole lifetime.

It is my experience that obedience is not a drudgery or anything that I don't want to do. God has given to me an obedient heart. So yes, I WANT to be obedient.

Probably bits and pieces that you happen to enjoy you do but the fact that you ask for your desires to be changed to be the same as His tells you this is actually not the case.

You, yourself, reveal the truth, which is, by the way, NORMAL. There isn’t an honest person among us who can claim that they obey God 100%. Most would like to do so more often at least.

 

[Mungo]

None of that answers my question. Are catholics saved at that initial justification or not?

Yes.

 

[Mungo]

Who's the apologist?

John Martignoni

 

[Mungo]

Mungo....

First, I don't believe we go by the Council of Trent anymore.

I'm not aware that the decrees of Council of Trent has been revoked

Also, could you translate that into plain English?

I think it is saying two things:

1. Although we say we are justified by faith, that is because faith is the starting point rather than instrumental cause of justification. The actual instrumental cause is baptism.

2. We are justified freely, (i.e. gratuitously - by grace) because neither faith or works merits that grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Martignoni

Don't know him.
Is he modern??
I mean from now.

 

[JLB]

Unforgiveness is a sin that Jesus might save them from.

If the person repents of unforgiveness, and thereby obeys the command of the Lord to forgive.

• if he repents, forgive him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not aware that the decrees of Council of Trent has been revoked

The council of Trent was never valid, as it was man made.

Catholicism itself is manmade. No mention of Catholic or Catholicism in scripture.


Christians follow the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Vatican.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16

The scriptures and the anointing of the Spirit, leads and guides followers of Jesus Christ.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27



JLB

 

[heartwashed]

Where in scripture does God break arms to suss out wickedness??

Psalms 10:15 (I think maybe you need to start paying better attention).

Not necessarily. The wicked suffer too and are not sanctified thereby.

Psalms 10:15 is an exception to that rule if it even be a rule.

Do you think having a broken arm is chastising?

Yes.

What sins does that point out?

The injury doesn't point out anything. It just shows the fact of a general wickedness. It is the Holy Spirit's job to pinpoint the sin.

That’s the problem. You won’t suffer by refusing your own will/desire. You won’t be forced to say “no” to your will.

So, obedience isn't valid unless you don't want to obey?

Absolutely. That’s what the whole of the Bible is about. Jesus didn’t ever say, “it will be easy on your own will cause He’ll just make you want to do my will.” If you’re waiting for that to happen, you’ll wait your whole lifetime.

I haven't waited my whole lifetime. God has done a work in me quite recently, with the breaking of my arm, where He has led me to pray for an obedient heart and I feel that this has made all the difference.

Probably bits and pieces that you happen to enjoy you do but the fact that you ask for your desires to be changed to be the same as His tells you this is actually not the case.

Fact is, He has changed my desires because I have asked Him to. Again, this is a recent work of the Holy Spirit in my life.

You, yourself, reveal the truth, which is, by the way, NORMAL. There isn’t an honest person among us who can claim that they obey God 100%. Most would like to do so more often at least.

I can say to you honestly that since I asked the Lord to give me an obedient heart; and called on the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to save me from my sins; that I have obeyed God 100%.

And I don't think that this record is going to even become marred by a future blunder.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
.
.
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
.
.
Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Jhn 11:25, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:27, She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
.
.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth (sinneth not) for ever.

 

[Mungo]

The council of Trent was never valid, as it was man made.

Catholicism itself is manmade. No mention of Catholic or Catholicism in scripture.


Christians follow the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Vatican.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16

The scriptures and the anointing of the Spirit, leads and guides followers of Jesus Christ.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27



JLB

That's just crude Catholic bashing JLB

 

[Mungo]

Don't know him.
Is he modern??
I mean from now.

Yes - https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/about_us

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes.

If the person repents of unforgiveness, and thereby obeys the command of the Lord to forgive.

• if he repents, forgive him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4



JLB

I agree. Jesus says we must forgive or else!! He won’t save us from the consequences of unforgiveness, not here nor there,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalms 10:15 (I think maybe you need to start paying better attention).



Psalms 10:15 is an exception to that rule if it even be a rule.



Yes.



The injury doesn't point out anything. It just shows the fact of a general wickedness. It is the Holy Spirit's job to pinpoint the sin.



So, obedience isn't valid unless you don't want to obey?



I haven't waited my whole lifetime. God has done a work in me quite recently, with the breaking of my arm, where He has led me to pray for an obedient heart and I feel that this has made all the difference.



Fact is, He has changed my desires because I have asked Him to. Again, this is a recent work of the Holy Spirit in my life.



I can say to you honestly that since I asked the Lord to give me an obedient heart; and called on the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to save me from my sins; that I have obeyed God 100%.

And I don't think that this record is going to even become marred by a future blunder.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
.
.
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
.
.
Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Jhn 11:25, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:27, She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
.
.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth (sinneth not) for ever.

In this very post I could point out words where you definitely did NOT obey the Holy Spirit. Other posts too.

But I’ve encountered those who think they are sinless and holy. Not a one of them were which is clear by observation. And NONE of them wanted to know where they failed.

Wishing you all the best!

 

[heartwashed]

In this very post I could point out words where you definitely did NOT obey the Holy Spirit. Other posts too.

But I’ve encountered those who think they are sinless and holy. Not a one of them were which is clear by observation. And NONE of them wanted to know where they failed.

Wishing you all the best!

I must be an exception to the rule, as I am very interested in what your judgment is concerning me.

Where have I not obeyed the Holy Spirit?

btw, I don't think that I am sinless; but I had to grapple with the concept of sinless perfection and come to a certain conclusion in order to be able to get the victory over certain types of sins.

God has now given me an obedient heart concerning those sins.

And the verses that I quoted to you recently stand as a testimony that we can indeed walk in freedom and victory, in righteousness and in holiness, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes - https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/about_us

I like Trent Horn.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not aware that the decrees of Council of Trent has been revoked

Of course it has.
I'm sure you've read the CCC.

You know what would be interesting?
A thread on this, but it would be a lot of work.

I still owe one on EENS.
That's coming up.

I think it is saying two things:

1. Although we say we are justified by faith, that is because faith is the starting point rather than instrumental cause of justification. The actual instrumental cause is baptism.

2. We are justified freely, (i.e. gratuitously - by grace) because neither faith or works merits that grace.

Yes. I really cannot agree with whoever said this. Is it in the CCC??

I do believe that faith merits God's grace.
Otherwise, what is God basing our salvation on?

Think of it...it's very close to being calvinistic and the CC does not believe in double-predestination.

Answer this please:

A person comes to have faith in God but is not baptized and dies soon after.
What happens according to the CC?

PS
See 1257, 1258, 1260, 1281
CCC

 

[GodsGrace]

The council of Trent was never valid, as it was man made.

Catholicism itself is manmade. No mention of Catholic or Catholicism in scripture.


Christians follow the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Vatican.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16

The scriptures and the anointing of the Spirit, leads and guides followers of Jesus Christ.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27



JLB

I would agree that by the time of the Council of Trent, the church had veered away from its origins.
That would be a valid argument, but to say that the rules were man-made creates the problem of having to admit that ALL church rules are man-made.

Catholicism itself, however, is not man-made.
In the NT times it was known as the universal church.
It is one of the 2 denominations that can be traced back to the Apostles.
Many deny this, but they are denying history, which cannot be debated.

The CC follows the Vatican and any changes that may occur which do not change dogma.
Catholics follow Jesus, just as we do, and if they do not, it's because they do not care to learn about their religion.

As for John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27, I have said many times that some verses cannot be taught by the Holy Spirit if He teaches to everyone something different, which is the reason we do not agree on many topics.

I think it's time that we Christians came to some understanding that we are following the same God, the same Savior, and accentuated our similarities instead of our differences.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I must be an exception to the rule, as I am very interested in what your judgment is concerning me.

Where have I not obeyed the Holy Spirit?

btw, I don't think that I am sinless; but I had to grapple with the concept of sinless perfection and come to a certain conclusion in order to be able to get the victory over certain types of sins.

God has now given me an obedient heart concerning those sins.

And the verses that I quoted to you recently stand as a testimony that we can indeed walk in freedom and victory, in righteousness and in holiness, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

I think you’re fooling yourself. So far any correction has been met with a nasty false accusation against the person who corrects you. No exceptions that I saw. You never thank them and consider the correction.

It’s really too bad because that’s Gods favorite way of correcting us, with the rods of man.

“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rods of men.”

Gods favorite way to correct Israel was to send a man to SPEAK TO THEM ABOUT THEIR SIN. You are not open to being corrected by people.

 

[heartwashed]

I think you’re fooling yourself. So far any correction has been met with a nasty false accusation against the person who corrects you. No exceptions that I saw. You never thank them and consider the correction.

It’s really too bad because that’s Gods favorite way of correcting us, with the rods of man.

“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rods of men.”

Gods favorite way to correct Israel was to send a man to SPEAK TO THEM ABOUT THEIR SIN. You are not open to being corrected by people.

There is no sin that you can even point out and that is why you will not point out the sin that you seem to see in me. I think you also understand that when we see sin in other people, that same sin is normally entrenched in our own lives; according to Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42. So, whatever sin you see in me is most assuredly entrenched in you. But I am certainly open to you correcting me, if you can quote a verse that shows my behaviour to be sinful, I will heed that verse.

However, just saying, "I see a sin in you but I am not going to tell you what it is" is not behaving according to love. I now have to guess at what you are talking about if I am even going to be able to confess my sin and be forgiven and cleansed. Apparently restoration is not your goal; but judgment and condemnation.