THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[GodsGrace]

None of that answers my question. Are catholics saved at that initial justification or not?

DM
Catholics use the term initial justification and ongoing justification.

Protestants use the term justification and sanctification.

If one is justified he is saved.
However, as most Protestants would agree, this justification must continue, no matter what we want to call it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you’re fooling yourself. So far any correction has been met with a nasty false accusation against the person who corrects you. No exceptions that I saw. You never thank them and consider the correction.

It’s really too bad because that’s Gods favorite way of correcting us, with the rods of man.

“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rods of men.”

Gods favorite way to correct Israel was to send a man to SPEAK TO THEM ABOUT THEIR SIN. You are not open to being corrected by people.

LOL
Who is being open to correction??

We all believe we are right.
Or we wouldn't believe what we do!
.....if we thought we were wrong.....

 

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL
Who is being open to correction??

We all believe we are right.
Or we wouldn't believe what we do!
.....if we thought we were wrong.....

Ok, I grant there are likely few, but there are nevertheless some. We are taught that everyone has the same right to their view and it’s implied that NO ONE is wrong. There’s even a rule here against saying “you’re wrong.” Everyone is shielded from being made aware of their errors and the messenger is officially punished for pointing errors out.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

DM
Catholics use the term initial justification and ongoing justification.

Protestants use the term justification and sanctification.

If one is justified he is saved.
However, as most Protestants would agree, this justification must continue, no matter what we want to call it.

I’m fairly certain Heaven doesn’t see it that way as it’s a relationship not an acquisition.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is no sin that you can even point out and that is why you will not point out the sin that you seem to see in me. I think you also understand that when we see sin in other people, that same sin is normally entrenched in our own lives; according to Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42. So, whatever sin you see in me is most assuredly entrenched in you. But I am certainly open to you correcting me, if you can quote a verse that shows my behaviour to be sinful, I will heed that verse.

However, just saying, "I see a sin in you but I am not going to tell you what it is" is not behaving according to love. I now have to guess at what you are talking about if I am even going to be able to confess my sin and be forgiven and cleansed. Apparently restoration is not your goal; but judgment and condemnation.

If that comforts you. Of course, you could ask the Holy Spirit if He approves of what you write.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, I grant there are likely few, but there are nevertheless some. We are taught that everyone has the same right to their view and it’s implied that NO ONE is wrong. There’s even a rule here against saying “you’re wrong.” Everyone is shielded from being made aware of their errors and the messenger is officially punished for pointing errors out.

Actually Dorothy, I don't agree with you in this case.

Everyone does not have the right to their own view.
Christianity must remain compact or it will just fall apart, as sometimes I do believe it is doing.

There are some doctrine that we must conform to in order to even be called a Christian.
These very doctrine are becoming debatable...some doctrine cannot be debated.

I've often expressed my view to some that they cannot call themselves Christian unless they believe in the Trinity.
They say they can believe whatever they want to and still be called a Christian as long as they follow Jesus.

NO. This is wrong.

No one on this forum is shielded from anything. We can speak our thoughts and ideas. We just must do it with respect and not try to force others to accept whatever strange idea learned from who knows where.

You're trying to tell heartwashed that he sins...sorry I haven't followed along well.
I try not to get involved with the sins of others....I think I have enough of my own.

We should stick to the topic at hand and not try to teach others what they Holy Spirit is called to do....

But if someone wants to call themselves a Christian, then yes, they do need to believe basic Christian doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m fairly certain Heaven doesn’t see it that way as it’s a relationship not an acquisition.

What doesn't heaven see what way???

What do you disagree with? Not sure.

 

[Mungo]

Of course it has.
I'm sure you've read the CCC.

From where did you get the idea that the decrees of the Council of Trent have been revoked?

I don't see how that could be and the CCC refers to or quotes from the decrees of Trent many times.

Yes. I really cannot agree with whoever said this. Is it in the CCC??

I do believe that faith merits God's grace.
Otherwise, what is God basing our salvation on?

Think of it...it's very close to being calvinistic and the CC does not believe in double-predestination.

Faith is itself a grace, a gift from God.

The CCC has a sub heading Faith is a grace. and under it:
Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.' (CCC153)

Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. (CCC154)

Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. (CCC 162)

But we have to receive that gift and respond to it. I don't see how responding to God's gift merits Justification

Answer this please:

A person comes to have faith in God but is not baptized and dies soon after.
What happens according to the CC?

PS
See 1257, 1258, 1260, 1281
CCC

You have answered that yourself with the CCC references but you missed out 1259.

This is why I said in an earlier post (#61), after quoting Mk 16:16 and 1Pet3:21:

That does not mean that is the only way one can be saved. God is sovereign and can save whoever he wants to and for whatever reasons he chooses. But that is the way he has given us and we cannot do it our way.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What doesn't heaven see what way???

What do you disagree with? Not sure.

DM
Catholics use the term initial justification and ongoing justification.

Protestants use the term justification and sanctification.

If one is justified he is saved.
However, as most Protestants would agree, this justification must continue, no matter what we want to call it.

Heaven doesn’t divide “walking humbly with your God” into these stages any more than a good marriage is divided into stages beyond the beginning.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually Dorothy, I don't agree with you in this case.

Everyone does not have the right to their own view.

Is each view equally true? Is there a truth to find and hold? Is truth up for a vote? Is this the view that Jesus and the prophets demonstrated? Just think about it.

Christianity must remain compact or it will just fall apart, as sometimes I do believe it is doing.

The problem is never the pursuit of truth. The problem is pride and unforgiveness. In fact, if Christianity abandons the truths given it out of "everyone's thoughts are all equally true" then it has nothing to offer the world. Christianity at its heart says the to the world, "you are wrong but we have the truth to offer you."

There are some doctrine that we must conform to in order to even be called a Christian.
These very doctrine are becoming debatable...some doctrine cannot be debated.

Well, I think we must refuse them because they are wrong. This is actually how the Kingdom of God sees matters. In Heaven no one will have the right to their own view. It is either embrace the truth or you do not belong there. The Devil thought he had the right to his opinion as well. None of the disciples did.

I've often expressed my view to some that they cannot call themselves Christian unless they believe in the Trinity.
They say they can believe whatever they want to and still be called a Christian as long as they follow Jesus.

NO. This is wrong.

OK

No one on this forum is shielded from anything.

This is not strictly true but let's not go there.

We can speak our thoughts and ideas. We just must do it with respect and not try to force others to accept whatever strange idea learned from who knows where.

That is the theory.

You're trying to tell heartwashed that he sins...sorry I haven't followed along well.
I try not to get involved with the sins of others....I think I have enough of my own.

No, he claimed that he had obeyed God 100%. I know for a fact that he did not. But he only calls anyone who corrects him names so I am not going there.

We should stick to the topic at hand and not try to teach others what they Holy Spirit is called to do....

When a poster claims they are sinless or obey God 100%, then we ought to point out, if we know, where they are in error. Spiritual pride, which that is, is one of the worse sins.

But if someone wants to call themselves a Christian, then yes, they do need to believe basic Christian doctrine.

Ok, but I don't usually offer my evaluation of that one. It is fairly easy to tell who is what after a number of posts where people write their thoughts. If they just quote other people, then not although that shows other information.

 

[heartwashed]

If that comforts you. Of course, you could ask the Holy Spirit if He approves of what you write.

I ask the Lord, every time I get on the computer, and just about every night, to speak through me, to give me the words to say, and to let every word that comes off of my keyboard be from the Holy Ghost.

Now, are you going to try and say that the following promise isn't valid?

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I find that many of the things that you write are not conducive to the faith of the hearer.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I ask the Lord, every time I get on the computer, and just about every night, to speak through me, to give me the words to say, and to let every word that comes off of my keyboard be from the Holy Ghost.

Scripturally, we are required to evaluate your texts and I can tell you that your posts do not reflect the Holy Spirit having any influence on what you write. What I asked you to do is to ask the Holy Spirit to show you YOUR sin, not make you an honored spokesman to others. Turn your computer off and stop believing by faith that God is speaking through you. There is no evidence of that. First you need to be able to hear his speak TO you before He can speak through you.

Now, are you going to try and say that the following promise isn't valid?

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I find that many of the things that you write are not conducive to the faith of the hearer.

Well, the Bible tells you when you hear his voice be diligent and repent. If you refuse to do so, that you can ask and seek and knock and you have rendered yourself deaf. There is the idea in the scripture of waiting on the Lord. That is, you asking does not make him the servant required to jump. You can tell yourself that is faith but it is really you demanding as the master than God perform when and where you say.

 

[heartwashed]

But he only calls anyone who corrects him names so I am not going there.

What name did I call you when you tried to correct me?

And why did you make it a general accusation instead of letting me know the nature of my error?

When a poster claims they are sinless or obey God 100%, then we ought to point out, if we know, where they are in error.

So, why haven't you pointed out my error?

Is it not because there is none?

Spiritual pride, which that is, is one of the worse sins.

It seems that faith can be mistaken by the judgmental to be spiritual pride.

 

[heartwashed]

Dorothy Mae,

I can tell you that the Holy Spirit does not have any influence on what you write;

And rightfully so; because you have not asked Him to be an influence on what you write.

Your posts are simply not conducive to faith in what is written in holy scripture.

So I know that I can discount everything that you say and that I will not be any worse off over it.

You are highly judgmental and you have three fingers pointing back at you every time you judge (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).

With the same measure that you mete out judgment, it will be measured back to you.

This is why I said to you before that 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 must apply to the fact that you are blind to what is written in certain of the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

the problem of having to admit that ALL church rules are man-made.

The vast majority of the teachings of Catholicism are man made.

 

[GodsGrace]

From where did you get the idea that the decrees of the Council of Trent have been revoked?

I don't see how that could be and the CCC refers to or quotes from the decrees of Trent many times.

Did I say the decrees of Trent have been revoked??
The entirety of the decrees have not been revoked....
but some changes have been made.

I think I'll start that thread at some point.
Some books were prohibited.
Protestants were believed to be heretical, this is no longer true.
To be continued....

Faith is itself a grace, a gift from God.

The CCC has a sub heading Faith is a grace. and under it:
Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.' (CCC153)

Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. (CCC154)

Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. (CCC 162)

But we have to receive that gift and respond to it. I don't see how responding to God's gift merits Justification

We agree on this. I've said from the beginning that both faith and salvation are gifts from God.
You say we have to RECEIVE that gift. Agreed.
Responding merits the receiving of that gift. Yes, this is what I believe to be true in scripture.
But it's you who says that it does not merit justification.
Then what does??

If the response to God is NO, the person cannot be saved.
If the response to God is YES, then the person receives salvation (or at least initial salvation).

John 3:16 Whosoever believeth in HIM shall not perish.
Believing causes meriting salvation.
Faith is a gift, and salvation is a gift.
I guess we can say that we merit that gift.

Our works will not save us.
UNLESS they come with faith.

You have answered that yourself with the CCC references but you missed out 1259.

This is why I said in an earlier post (#61), after quoting Mk 16:16 and 1Pet3:21:

CCC 1259:
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Yes, I neglected to post the above.
Someone is saved by believing even if they have not been baptized, if they DESIRE to be baptized.
Agreed.

This was my point. Baptism is necessary for salvation, but one can be saved even if not baptized under the right conditions.

 

[GodsGrace]

The vast majority of the teachings of Catholicism are man made.

It would be interesting to know which ones.
Some are...but I wouldn't say the vast majority.
Maybe there could be a thread on this...

I also know Catholics that do not understand what Protestants believe.

It would be a tough thread to manage,,,but maybe it should be done.

 

[JLB]

It would be interesting to know which ones.
Some are...but I wouldn't say the vast majority.
Maybe there could be a thread on this...

I also know Catholics that do not understand what Protestants believe.

It would be a tough thread to manage,,,but maybe it should be done.

I guess one could get a catechism and start with that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heaven doesn’t divide “walking humbly with your God” into these stages any more than a good marriage is divided into stages beyond the beginning.

Well then you agree more with Catholicism and their understanding of justification.

I actually began to understand this better when a sharp distinction was made between Justification and Sanctification.

However, there are stages. You'll agree, I think:

First a person is not saved.
At some point that person becomes aware of God and is saved.
This is justification.

After justification, that person continues their life and works for the Lord in all he does.
This is sanctification.

It's a normal progression.
I don't see any problem with the concept.

Romans 3:24
Titus 3:7

1 Thess 4:3
Hebrews 12:14

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess one could get a catechism and start with that.

I'd start with the doctrine the CC teaches and see where it originates.
The Catechism is based on biblical verses and also teachings of the doctors of the church.
Yes, I think this thread will be started...