THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[heartwashed]

What was your answer? Is forgiving others required for salvation, yes or no?

It is not required but it is the sure result. If you are not saved you will not forgive. Therefore if you don't forgive it signifies a lack of salvation.

Where does Romans use the formula “calling on the Lord for salvation from sin?”

Romans 10:13 as compared to Matthew 1:21.

Where does that verse promise what you say? Where is the connection? It doesn’t say that.

We receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. It can be determined from other verses that such faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross.

Doesn’t appear to be working.

Doesn’t appear to be working,

You have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In another post you exhorted me to ask God to give me the fear of the Lord.

How is this attitude the fear of the Lord in you?

Moves me to obey Him.The fear of the Lord results in the hatred of sin. Exactly what you seek.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is not required but it is the sure result. If you are not saved you will not forgive. Therefore if you don't forgive it signifies a lack of salvation.

Romans 10:13 as compared to Matthew 1:21.

We receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. It can be determined from other verses that such faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross.

No, that’s not what Jesus taught. Not anywhere. Forgiving others is a prerequisite not a consequence.

 

[heartwashed]

Moves me to obey Him.The fear of the Lord results in the hatred of sin. Exactly what you seek.

Exactly what I have.

But if you don't care about whether you are going to heaven or not, how is that the fear of the Lord?

 

[heartwashed]

No, that’s not what Jesus taught. Not anywhere. Forgiving others is a prerequisite not a consequence.

Paul taught forgiving others as a consequence (Ephesians 4:32).

 

[heartwashed]

No, that’s not what Jesus taught. Not anywhere. Forgiving others is a prerequisite not a consequence.

Paul also taught faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross (Romans 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

This is the basics of Christianity, if you don't know this, you have a long way to go.

 

[GodsGrace]

See 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Well, it's a beginning.

 

[PeterJens]

Paul also taught faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross (Romans 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

This is the basics of Christianity, if you don't know this, you have a long way to go.

This is such an interesting point. I think the problem is different than we understand it.
Forgiveness is about dealing with the hurt within caused by someone else. It comes from a realisation that until our hurts are healed and our confidence is vested in Christ we cannot see as we should.

If we hold on to the hurts, as more important than love and eternal issues, we are denying Jesus and His work in our lives and others. Our emotions will play the hurts as the biggest mountains to climb that are impossible to get beyond, yet the cross and Jesus's love puts that into perspective.

On this I would say Jesus states simply one cannot be with Him and know Him and hold the hurts as if they matter more. The hurts will destroy the person who exalts them, and the bitterness bring darkness to their soul. These consequences though are not instantaneous but rather how they work out over time.

So in the eternal perspective, salvation is not possible if we cannot forgive from the heart, but equally our walk begins with us meeting Jesus and putting Him central in our lives. The question is will we work this through in who we are or find the blocks are too big that then swallow the life Jesus brings. Jesus describes this in the seed and the sower parable. Only when things are mature and worked through is the real fruit seen.

God bless you

 

[heartwashed]

This is such an interesting point. I think the problem is different than we understand it.
Forgiveness is about dealing with the hurt within caused by someone else. It comes from a realisation that until our hurts are healed and our confidence is vested in Christ we cannot see as we should.

If we hold on to the hurts, as more important than love and eternal issues, we are denying Jesus and His work in our lives and others. Our emotions will play the hurts as the biggest mountains to climb that are impossible to get beyond, yet the cross and Jesus's love puts that into perspective.

On this I would say Jesus states simply one cannot be with Him and know Him and hold the hurts as if they matter more. The hurts will destroy the person who exalts them, and the bitterness bring darkness to their soul. These consequences though are not instantaneous but rather how they work out over time.

So in the eternal perspective, salvation is not possible if we cannot forgive from the heart, but equally our walk begins with us meeting Jesus and putting Him central in our lives. The question is will we work this through in who we are or find the blocks are too big that then swallow the life Jesus brings. Jesus describes this in the seed and the sower parable. Only when things are mature and worked through is the real fruit seen.

God bless you

Hi PeterJens,

I think that forgiveness entails desiring that the person you are forgiving be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven; you desire that they not go to the lake of fire.

In order for that to occur, the Lord must receive that person as a son.

Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Therefore I find a conjunction between the two concepts of forgiving those who offend me and vengeance belonging to the Lord concerning those who have wronged me.

In forgiving them my prayer becomes that they will not face eternal consequences for their behaviour; but that rather they will be taught through discipline / chastening / scourging not to behave in such a manner so that when I finally see them in heaven, there are not going to be any repeat offences.

In order that heaven might truly be heavenly.

 

[GodsGrace]

A is to be found in holy scripture...specifically in Romans 10:13.

Of course, if anyone calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, it will produce a change of heart and life so that good works will ultimately follow if given the opportunity.

I would say that what is found in B...seeking to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and obedient to Him...is not a requirement for salvation....while it is the certain result of a genuine salvation...for the Lord changes the heart.

Hi Heartwashed

I do agree that there should be a change of heart in a saved person.

But there could be a change of heart in an unsaved person too. So what's the difference?

Also, Jesus preached and taught for years.
There must be something more than just believing. What does believe mean, anyway.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Heartwashed

I do agree that there should be a change of heart in a saved person.

But there could be a change of heart in an unsaved person too. So what's the difference?

Also, Jesus preached and taught for years.
There must be something more than just believing. What does believe mean, anyway.

What if the change is due to the person CHOOSING to deny themselves, take up their cross and follows Jesus? H thinks it’s automatic and painless.

 

[GodsGrace]

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
(Council of Trent, Session 6 Chapter VIII)

Mungo....

First, I don't believe we go by the Council of Trent anymore.

Also, could you translate that into plain English?

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is a necessary component but it is not faith that saves us.
The same apologist I quoted before explains:
Or, imagine a fountain that is surrounded by a tall fence. The fence has but one gate. No way to get to the fountain except through the gate. The gate has a name on it...Faith. This fountain flows with the waters of eternal life. I have to walk "through" the gate of Faith to get to the fountain of eternal life, but I don't bathe in the waters of the fountain and receive eternal life "because of" the gate.

A few comments
1. Nowhere does scripture say that we are saved by faith alone.

2. Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".
Peter wrote: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

3. Faith doesn't save us.
Water doesn't save us.
It is God grace alone that saves us.

Who's the apologist?

I agree with the analogy.
Here's my understanding....

The gate is faith. We are saved through faith.
The water is God's grace and gift of salvation.

IF we don't open the gate and walk through it, are we saved?

The water is there, if you use it or not.
The gate must be opened. Faith must be set in motion.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who's the apologist?

I agree with the analogy.
Here's my understanding....

The gate is faith. We are saved through faith.
The water is God's grace and gift of salvation.

IF we don't open the gate and walk through it, are we saved?

The water is there, if you use it or not.
The gate must be opened. Faith must be set in motion.

Nice analogy!

 

[GodsGrace]

What if the change is due to the person CHOOSING to deny themselves, take up their cross and follows Jesus? H thinks it’s automatic and painless.

It might be painless at the beginning. Then God might ask something of us.

Jesus said to count the cost before we build. Don't have my bible right now. Luke?

If it were automatic, then we'd have to hold the Holy Spirit responsible when we fail.

 

[heartwashed]

Hi Heartwashed

I do agree that there should be a change of heart in a saved person.

But there could be a change of heart in an unsaved person too. So what's the difference?

Also, Jesus preached and taught for years.
There must be something more than just believing. What does believe mean, anyway.

An unsaved person does not have faith and therefore they can only cleanse the outside of the cup and platter...for the inside of the cup and platter can only be cleansed by faith in Christ's shed blood.

I believe that Romans 7:14-25 speaks of the plight of the unsaved; while Romans 8 defines the believer who has graduated into spiritual maturity through having their heart changed.

What if the change is due to the person CHOOSING to deny themselves, take up their cross and follows Jesus? H thinks it’s automatic and painless.

Oh, of course our salvation has NO VALUE unless there is pain involved in it!

It may indeed be painful to take up your cross and follow Jesus; but the initial step of calling on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin is usually in fact painless. A person is saved through that initial step and will take up their cross as the result of taking that step. They are not saved because of taking up their cross; they take up their cross because they are saved.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PeterJens,

I think that forgiveness entails desiring that the person you are forgiving be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven; you desire that they not go to the lake of fire.

In order for that to occur, the Lord must receive that person as a son.

Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Therefore I find a conjunction between the two concepts of forgiving those who offend me and vengeance belonging to the Lord concerning those who have wronged me.

In forgiving them my prayer becomes that they will not face eternal consequences for their behaviour; but that rather they will be taught through discipline / chastening / scourging not to behave in such a manner so that when I finally see them in heaven, there are not going to be any repeat offences.

In order that heaven might truly be heavenly.

Hi Heartwashed,

I work on a much more simple method. Do I blame a rotten tree for falling on me or my car if I get too close? It was my fault for not taking due care. If you give money to a heroin addict they will just get more heroin. Hurt and pain are our reaction to unexpected outcomes, which upset us, and we feel strongly about revenge or changing things to put them right. So forgiveness for me is letting go of that for which I possessed as if possessions matter other than are stewardship. Job lost his whole family, and he bowed low and declared "What the Lord gave he can also take away."

He did not blame the raiders, but resolved everything is under the Lords hands and with His blessing. I have no rights, I am just a servant. I wish blessing on everyone, even the criminal who hurts and destroys things I have. It takes time but for a man so blessed, who am I not to share as much as I can.

Years ago I lent a compass to some friends who needed it. Until that point I did not realise how much it mattered to me. My dad had given it to me, and it was an emotional contact point. But in Jesus it was just a compass, which I needed to risk losing and giving to the Lord. Something changed in my after that. Forgiveness is admitting we are in the Lords hands, and he gives us the privilege of the experiences we have. I have a loving wife and kids, with our ups and downs, but I am very aware how fragile it all is and one day I will go away. Part of me is very protective of them all, and yet still I must bow before the Lord and only by His will will things go forward.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It might be painless at the beginning. Then God might ask something of us.

Jesus said to count the cost before we build. Don't have my bible right now. Luke?

If it were automatic, then we'd have to hold the Holy Spirit responsible when we fail.

Perfect! I agree completely. There might be some changes initially but certainly the bulk comes with struggle against the wrong desires within us. The best way to start to hate the sin within and without is to ask for the fear of the Lord. That is something we cannot generate. But when he grants it, you hate sin and we do not do that which we hate before we do it. (A lot of things we hate afterwards.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh, of course our salvation has NO VALUE unless there is pain involved in it!

Like what? Can you describe what this pain is? I have my doubts here so please help me to understand what you see as the pain involved. So far all we hear from you is how the heart is changed....painless to the self.

It may indeed be painful to take up your cross and follow Jesus; but the initial step of calling on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin is usually in fact painless. A person is saved through that initial step and will take up their cross as the result of taking that step. They are not saved because of taking up their cross; they take up their cross because they are saved.

What do you mean "taking up your cross?" Please use words describing real life, not metaphors.

 

[heartwashed]

Like what? Can you describe what this pain is? I have my doubts here so please help me to understand what you see as the pain involved. So far all we hear from you is how the heart is changed....painless to the self.

Actually, I was being sarcastic, as you should have been able to determine by the icon.

However, I can tell you that a broken arm can be quite painful.

What do you mean "taking up your cross?" Please use words describing real life, not metaphors.

Denying self and choosing to be unselfish in your dealings with people. Being obedient to the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49).