THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[Dorothy Mae]

A is to be found in holy scripture...specifically in Romans 10:13.

Of course, if anyone calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, it will produce a change of heart and life so that good works will ultimately follow if given the opportunity.

I would say that what is found in B...seeking to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and obedient to Him...is not a requirement for salvation....while it is the certain result of a genuine salvation...for the Lord changes the heart.

Is this what we see in churches today among the genuinely saved? Is this how most christians behave after genuine salvation? I’m a scientist and test theories so would test to see if the above thoughts in the mind of the author match the reality outside the mind. I’ve been around some decades and the above is definitely NOT what we see. But I’ve heard this cherished theory expressed. Those who called on the name of the Lord and are genuinely saved do not seem to be as you describe by and large or in significant numbers.

I’ll describe this theory in more truthful terms. It’s the hope that by a painless to the flesh method God will simply reach down and changes the motivations and desires so that we become (while essentially unconscious) holy/righteous/obedient without having to deny our desires once. As you say, some think this comes from understanding what salvation means but when did understanding change a heart? What is the truth?

We need to go through saying NO to our wrong desires which is exactly why we are told to do so repeatedly in the Bible. As we do this, He aids us and changes us.

 

[heartwashed]

Is this what we see in churches today among the genuinely saved? Is this how most christians behave after genuine salvation? I’m a scientist and test theories so would test to see if the above thoughts in the mind of the author match the reality outside the mind. I’ve been around some decades and the above is definitely NOT what we see. But I’ve heard this cherished theory expressed. Those who called on the name of the Lord and are genuinely saved do not seem to be as you describe by and large or in significant numbers.

I’ll describe this theory in more truthful terms. It’s the hope that by a painless to the flesh method God will simply reach down and changes the motivations and desires so that we become (while essentially unconscious) holy/righteous/obedient without having to deny our desires once. As you say, some think this comes from understanding what salvation means but when did understanding change a heart? What is the truth?

We need to go through saying NO to our wrong desires which is exactly why we are told to do so repeatedly in the Bible. As we do this, He aids us and changes us.

So, what you are trying to say is that if a person calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, that the Lord will leave that person in the dust?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The above looks like multiple choice....at least I hope it is, knowing you.

So, I'll pick B.

A is nowhere to be found in scripture.

Exactly my point! Well said,

 

[heartwashed]

Exactly my point! Well said,

Of course your point of view is very simply wrong.

Romans 10:13 is clear that if anyone calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, they shall be saved from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course your point of view is very simply wrong.

Romans 10:13 is clear that if anyone calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, they shall be saved from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

Do they need to forgive others or just say the “magic” words?

 

[heartwashed]

Do they need to forgive others or just say the “magic” words?

Unforgiveness is a sin that Jesus might save them from.

Salvation from sin is a work of the Holy Spirit.

It is supernatural; but it isn't magic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I said salvation has thee dimensions - past present and future/
.
Past
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved (Eph 2:5)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

Present
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1Pet 1:8-9)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1Cor 1:18)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,(Phil 2:12)

Future
And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.(Rom 13:11)

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (1Cor 3:15)

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.(1Cor 5:5)

Do you flat out deny that you said “initial” salvation?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Unforgiveness is a sin that Jesus might save them from.

Salvation from sin is a work of the Holy Spirit.

It is supernatural; but it isn't magic.

Please answer the question. Do you need to forgive others to be saved from punishment for your sins, yes or no?

 

[heartwashed]

Please answer the question. Do you need to forgive others to be saved from punishment for your sins, yes or no?

In being saved you would be saved from the sin of unforgiveness; and therefore you would forgive others as the result of having been saved.

 

[Mungo]

Do you flat out deny that you said “initial” salvation?

Yes.
I actually said "initial Justification".

In was referring to our initial Justification which brings us into a covenant relationship with God.

 

[Mungo]

They are conceiving faith by hearing...

God's grace falls on everyone...
He makes us righteous through our belief in Him
Romans 5:8 While we were still sinners, God showed His love for us.

At God's revelation, they freely move toward God, believing Him to be true in His word...

God makes the first move through His grace, which is available to all if not rejected at the time of revelation...
Man makes the 2nd move by accepting that grace.

Session 6 is saying that man conceives faith by hearing...
It is faith that is necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
(Council of Trent, Session 6 Chapter VIII)

 

[Mungo]

I'm sorry Mungo, but the above is the opposite of what happens.
I don't see any difference in how Protestants view salvation and how Catholics view salvation.

INITIAL SALVATION
or
JUSTIFICATION is by faith alone. By our faith in God.
Faith is an absolutely necessary component of salvation.
And it is by MY FAITH. How does that make ME my own savior?
Saying it is THROUGH faith, which I also agree with, is the same.
If you want to distinguish between the two, you're walking a fine line and I don't know anyone here that can cut it that thin.

The jailer, Acts 16:31, said BELIEVE IN CHRIST

Believe means to have faith.
If we have faith, we will be saved.

We are saved through our faith in God, by His grace.

I don't know how this could be debated by any apologist, whatever denomination.

Faith is a necessary component but it is not faith that saves us.
The same apologist I quoted before explains:
Or, imagine a fountain that is surrounded by a tall fence. The fence has but one gate. No way to get to the fountain except through the gate. The gate has a name on it...Faith. This fountain flows with the waters of eternal life. I have to walk "through" the gate of Faith to get to the fountain of eternal life, but I don't bathe in the waters of the fountain and receive eternal life "because of" the gate.

A few comments
1. Nowhere does scripture say that we are saved by faith alone.

2. Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".
Peter wrote: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

3. Faith doesn't save us.
Water doesn't save us.
It is God grace alone that saves us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes.
I actually said "initial Justification".

Ah, so the justification is NOT salvation, right? When does salvation occur then?

 

[Mungo]

Ah, so the justification is NOT salvation, right? When does salvation occur then?

There are four aspects to salvation.
Justification is only one of them.
The four aspects are: Sanctification, Redemption, Forgiveness, and Justification.

Justification is both and event and a process so Catholics refer to Initial Justification (an event) and Progressive Justification (a process) leading to Final Justification (an event) when we enter heaven.

It might be more accurate to say that Progressive Justification is a series of events.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There are four aspects to salvation.
Justification is only one of them.
The four aspects are: Sanctification, Redemption, Forgiveness, and Justification.

Justification is both and event and a process so Catholics refer to Initial Justification (an event) and Progressive Justification (a process) leading to Final Justification (an event) when we enter heaven.

It might be more accurate to say that Progressive Justification is a series of events.

None of that answers my question. Are catholics saved at that initial justification or not?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, what you are trying to say is that if a person calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, that the Lord will leave that person in the dust?

Let’s look at scripture. Do you know the account of the rich young ruler? He called on the Lord as you think brings results no question. How did that work out?

“Many will come to me in that day saying, “Lord, lord” (definitely calling on the Lord) and I will tell them, depart from me. I never knew you.” Hmmm. What happened to the formula? They called on the name of the Lord but were not saved. hmmmm

Did you answer if forgiving those who sin against you is required for salvation yet?

 

[heartwashed]

Let’s look at scripture. Do you know the account of the rich young ruler? He called on the Lord as you think brings results no question. How did that work out?

“Many will come to me in that day saying, “Lord, lord” (definitely calling on the Lord) and I will tell them, depart from me. I never knew you.” Hmmm. What happened to the formula? They called on the name of the Lord but were not saved. hmmmm

Did you answer if forgiving those who sin against you is required for salvation yet?

Yes, I have answered that question.

So, are you trying to say that Matthew 7:21-23 nullifies Romans 10:13?

I do not see them as contradicting each other.

A person can say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, without calling on His name for salvation from sin.

As for the rich ruler, where in scripture did he call on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin?

It seems to me that he merely asked the Lord a question, "what good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus gave him the short answer.

The long answer being that if I place my faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross, He will give me the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14).

And through the Spirit I will receive the love of God (Romans 5:5).

Which love is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18) and which is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within me (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6; Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 8:4).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mungo and heartwashed, you don’t have to agree but you might want to understand. I don’t divide my relationship/experience with God into a process or formula or see it as what I get out of it primarily anymore than I view my relationship with my husband or sister or children as such. There was the initial coming to know them time, but it’s wasn’t a time when I received a certain status but more was received or began the relationship. Since then they’ve grown but I still don’t dissect those times into states of being as they were all relationship growing deeper dependent on my actions in many cases.

Now my relationship with the Lord is so far that I don’t care if Eternity in Heaven awaits me or not. That’s how little I care about my salvation from hell…..as long as I can walk with Him in deep relationship where I hear his voice so that I can do as He asks, I’m not thinking much about my eternal salvation. He is so attractive that I’m satisfied with His walking with me.

 

[heartwashed]

Now my relationship with the Lord is so far that I don’t care if Eternity in Heaven awaits me or not.

In another post you exhorted me to ask God to give me the fear of the Lord.

How is this attitude the fear of the Lord in you?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I have answered that question.

What was your answer? Is forgiving others required for salvation, yes or no?

So, are you trying to say that Matthew 7:21-23 nullifies Romans 10:13?

No, only your personal changing it.

I do not see them as contradicting each other.

A person can say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, without calling on His name for salvation from sin.

But that’s what you say Romans says. What else is needed then?

As for the rich ruler, where in scripture did he call on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin?

Where does Romans use the formula “calling on the Lord for salvation from sin?”

It seems to me that he merely asked the Lord a question, "what good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?"

That’s salvation or? Are you expecting eternal life?

Jesus gave him the short answer.

No, it was the FULL answer. The short is your Romans blip.

The long answer being that if I place my faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross, He will give me the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14).

hat in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Where does that verse promise what you say? Where is the connection? It doesn’t say that.

And through the Spirit I will receive the love of God (Romans 5:5).

Doesn’t appear to be working.

Which love is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18) and which is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within me (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6; Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 8:4).

Doesn’t appear to be working,