The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Tenchi]

Sinners are not brothers of Christ.

This doesn't even slightly rebut what I demonstrated from the words of the apostle Paul that, in fact, brothers and sisters in Christ can and do sin - sometimes very grossly.

Paul's letters were addressed to churches. Who was in those churches can be determined by their actions.

Again, this is just a flat assertion that doesn't offer anything that counters what I pointed out from Paul's own words. Paul doesn't agree with you here, at all, Hopeful 2.

Some were really repentant folks who walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Others were unrepentant and walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Paul differentiated the one from the other, making it possible tor the churches to do the same.

But, as Paul also made very clear - as I've shown from his own words - both were "in Christ," carnal though they might have been.

Casting out the unrepentant is still the mode of the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:32) today.

Yes. But doing so to an unrepentant believer does not dissolve their membership in God's family and kingdom. Because their adoption never hinged on their conduct but on the perfect sacrifice of Christ for all of their sins at Calvary. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[electedbyHim]

Here's how...."...How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. " (Rom 6:2-7)

17..."But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:17-18)

22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

Paul was chief of sinners and struggled with sin.

1Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy saying and deserving full acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.

So that means Paul was not truly converted and in not in heaven with the Lord?

Also, for clarification. Christians who sin are truly not converted Christians, is this correct?

 

[electedbyHim]

Is sinless perfection possible in this life?​

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14–24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that people sometimes get confused about is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11–13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected, and the bodies of the living will be changed (Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9–15). Our redemption will be complete, and our sin will be gone forever. We will live and reign with Christ in sinless perfection forever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

"Sinless perfection" is otherwise known as glorification,

I don't know why you would think that.
Glorification, to me, won't occur until I have my named called from the book of life.

by and of itself it is not a heresy, the problem is cashing this check prematurely like the younger son demanding his inheritance from the father.

I may use your simile the next time I encounter an OSAS advocate.

Jesus was sinless, but not glorified while still on earth.
It is written..."(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39)
This may simply be the final glorification of the Word made flesh, as it is also written..."And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all." (Luke 4:15)
It is a macro-glorification and a micro-glorification.
We won't receive our macro-glorification until the day of the Lord's judgement, but by our actions here on earth, we can receive our micro-glorifications every day !
Have you ever been thanked for a donation ?
Or for a charitable gift ?
Those are micro-glorifications.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul was chief of sinners and struggled with sin.

Paul was the worst of sinners who were saved.
Or, chief of those who have converted from sinner to saint.
As very much wisdom has been brought to light by Paul, (Thanks be to God !), I prefer to see him not as a sinner but as chief of the converted.
Perhaps you can point out a scripture detailing any sin Paul committed after his conversion ?

1Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy saying and deserving full acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.
So that means Paul was not truly converted and in not in heaven with the Lord?

Only if your version of the verse is correct.
I will await your scriptures detailing his post-conversion sins.

Also, for clarification. Christians who sin are truly not converted Christians, is this correct?

That is correct.
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus also said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God.

 

[electedbyHim]

Paul was the worst of sinners who were saved.
Or, chief of those who have converted from sinner to saint.
As very much wisdom has been brought to light by Paul, (Thanks be to God !), I prefer to see him not as a sinner but as chief of the converted.
Perhaps you can point out a scripture detailing any sin Paul committed after his conversion ?

Only if your version of the verse is correct.
I will await your scriptures detailing his post-conversion sins.

That is correct.
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus also said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God.

Paul struggled with sin, I believe these scriptures have been pointed out before.

I will assume that you think Paul was not converted when he wrote the following...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold into bondage under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am working out, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the working out of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that in me evil is present—in me who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This doesn't even slightly rebut what I demonstrated from the words of the apostle Paul that, in fact, brothers and sisters in Christ can and do sin - sometimes very grossly.

Is it your opinion that there is sin in Christ ?
I don't hold that same opinion.
Christians are in Christ, (Rom 6:3), so all that is in the convert is in Christ too.
No sinner is in Christ.

Again, this is just a flat assertion that doesn't offer anything that counters what I pointed out from Paul's own words. Paul doesn't agree with you here, at all, Hopeful 2.

It is just what can be determined by Paul's own writings.
He writes to the church(es) and gives them the ways and means of separating the tares from the wheat.
Adulterers, separators of brethren, and those who go to law against a supposed brother instead of before the church, are tares.

But, as Paul also made very clear - as I've shown from his own words - both were "in Christ," carnal though they might have been.

There is no carnality in those walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
Paul knew this..."And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal,..." (1 Cor 3:1)
Paul also wrote these verses..."For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Rom 8:6-7)
Paul did, however, hope he could show them the error of their way, and get them to repent truly.

Yes. But doing so to an unrepentant believer does not dissolve their membership in God's family and kingdom.

The unrepentant never had any membership in God's family.

Because their adoption never hinged on their conduct but on the perfect sacrifice of Christ for all of their sins at Calvary. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Timothy 1:9)

You would have seen it differently if you had included verse 10 to the Eph 2:8-9 citing..."For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Those in Christ Jesus were created to do good works !
(Paul's reference to works in Eph 2, were the works of the Law, like every other place he cited works.)

The same thing stands in your Titus 3 scriptures.
Had you added verse 8..."This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."...you would have seen that good works are our duty !
Again, not the works of the Law...which can save nobody.
For 2 Tim 1:9, the works mentioned were as a prerequisite to anything Paul and Timothy were given by God.
Things like circumcision, dietary rules, and offerings for sin.

Too many stretch the misguided POV that there is nothing we must do, to include even repentance from sin, in fear that is it may be seen as a work for salvation.
But without that turn from sin, there can be no salvation.

It is a doctrine of devils to continue to offend God while reaping his graceful promises.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Is sinless perfection possible in this life?​

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14–24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that people sometimes get confused about is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11–13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected, and the bodies of the living will be changed (Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9–15). Our redemption will be complete, and our sin will be gone forever. We will live and reign with Christ in sinless perfection forever.

Seeing as you like to use verses in an attempt to legitimize your POV, I will do the same.
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[electedbyHim]

Seeing as you like to use verses in an attempt to legitimize your POV, I will do the same.
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

We all know those verses and you interpret them different than established men of God.

You did not answer post #86.

I will post it again for you.

Paul struggled with sin, I believe these scriptures have been pointed out before.

I will assume that you think Paul was not converted when he wrote the following...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold into bondage under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am working out, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the working out of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that in me evil is present—in me who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

This doesn't even slightly rebut what I demonstrated from the words of the apostle Paul that, in fact, brothers and sisters in Christ can and do sin - sometimes very grossly.



Again, this is just a flat assertion that doesn't offer anything that counters what I pointed out from Paul's own words. Paul doesn't agree with you here, at all, Hopeful 2.



But, as Paul also made very clear - as I've shown from his own words - both were "in Christ," carnal though they might have been.



Yes. But doing so to an unrepentant believer does not dissolve their membership in God's family and kingdom. Because their adoption never hinged on their conduct but on the perfect sacrifice of Christ for all of their sins at Calvary. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Well said as you maintain the crucial distinction between and grace gospel, and a works gospel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul struggled with sin, I believe these scriptures have been pointed out before.

I will assume that you think Paul was not converted when he wrote the following...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold into bondage under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am working out, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the working out of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that in me evil is present—in me who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Yes, I agree with you that Paul struggled with sin...while he was still walking in the flesh and trying to please God by keeping the Law.

Do you see his plaint about the law of sin in his members while he was unsuccessfully trying to keep the Law ? (7:23)
Well, it was answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Did you see his plaint about wanting to be free from the body ? (7:24)
It was answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Which Paul are you going to take your cues from ?
The pre-conversion one trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law while still walking in the flesh ?
Or the one whose flesh has been crucified, with the affections and lusts ? (Gal 5:24)

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes, I agree with you that Paul struggled with sin...while he was still walking in the flesh and trying to please God by keeping the Law.

Do you see his plaint about the law of sin in his members while he was unsuccessfully trying to keep the Law ? (7:23)
Well, it was answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Did you see his plaint about wanting to be free from the body ? (7:24)
It was answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Which Paul are you going to take your cues from ?
The pre-conversion one trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law while still walking in the flesh ?
Or the one whose flesh has been crucified, with the affections and lusts ? (Gal 5:24)

Are you saying Paul was unconverted in those verses?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well said as you maintain the crucial distinction between and grace gospel, and a works gospel.

The only works gospel ever presented was the one offered by the Judaizers who insisted circumcision and Law keeping were necessary for salvation.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are you saying Paul was unconverted in those verses?

I am saying that Paul was writing about his pre-conversion life in those verses.
The final verse of Rom 7 shows the end results of his torment.
His mind now rules what he does, and not his now dead "flesh".

 

[electedbyHim]

I am saying that Paul was writing about his pre-conversion life in those verses.
The final verse of Rom 7 shows the end results of his torment.
His mind now rules what he does, and not his now dead "flesh".

So many will disagree with you.

Some interpret this chronicle of Paul's inner conflict as describing his life before Christ. They point out that Paul describes the person as "sold under sin" (Rom_7:14); as having "nothing good" in him (Rom_7:18); and as a "wretched man" trapped in a "body of death" (Rom_7:24). Those descriptions seem to contradict the way Paul describes the believer in chapter 6 (cf. Rom_7:2, Rom_7:6-7, Rom_7:11, Rom_7:17-18, Rom_7:22). However, it is correct to understand Paul here to be speaking about a believer. This person desires to obey God's law and hates his sin (Rom_7:15, Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21); he is humble, recognizing that nothing good dwells in his humanness (Rom_7:18); he sees sin in himself, but not as all that is there (Rom_7:17, Rom_7:20-22); and he serves Jesus Christ with his mind (Rom_7:25). Paul has already established that none of those attitudes ever describe the unsaved (cf. Rom_1:18-21, Rom_1:32; Rom_3:10-20).

Paul's use of present tense verbs in verses Rom_7:14-25 strongly supports the idea that he is describing his life currently as a Christian. For those reasons, it seems certain that chapter 7 describes a believer. However, of those who agree that this is a believer, there is still disagreement. Some see a carnal, fleshly Christian; others a legalistic Christian, frustrated by his feeble attempts in his own power to please God by keeping the Mosaic Law. But the personal pronoun "I" refers to the apostle Paul, a standard of spiritual health and maturity. So in verses Rom_7:14-25, Paul must be describing all Christians—even the most spiritual and mature—who, when they honestly evaluate themselves against the righteous standard of God's law, realize how far short they fall. He does so in a series of four laments (Rom_7:14-17, Rom_7:18-20, Rom_7:21-23, Rom_7:24-25).

You never answered if Christians have sin in their lives, are they truly saved?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So many will disagree with you.

Of course, they want a doctrine that allows, and in some cases, accommodates sin.

You never answered if Christians have sin in their lives, are they truly saved?

I did answer, so again, from post # 85...
"It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus also said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God."

 

[Tenchi]

Is it your opinion that there is sin in Christ ?

Of course not.

Christians are in Christ, (Rom 6:3), so all that is in the convert is in Christ too.
No sinner is in Christ.

This is a big non sequitur. Do you know what a non sequitur is? It's a conclusion that doesn't follow from its premises. Your statement above is one such conclusion. It doesn't follow that because a born-again person is "in Christ" all that Christ is, therefore, is in them. It is painfully evident that no born-again person at conversion assumes all the infinite wisdom, knowledge and universe-creating power of Christ, nor do they take on his intrinsic aseity. No born-again believer looks out through Christ's eyes as he's seated at God the Father's right hand, gazing across the expanse of God's throne room in heaven. No born-again person can speak a universe into being. No born-again person knows all the innermost thoughts of another, as Christ does, or the number of atoms that exist, or what is within a galaxy-devouring black hole. But Christ does. No born-again believer upholds the existence of the universe moment-by-moment. But Christ does. What, then, does it mean to be "in Christ"? It can't - obviously - mean what you've asserted it does. Such an assertion is a gross non sequitur.

And, furthermore, as I've already showed, what Paul wrote in his letter to the believers at Corinth also defies the idea "no sinner is in Christ." As does Revelation 2-3. Or 1 John 1:8-10.

It is just what can be determined by Paul's own writings.
He writes to the church(es) and gives them the ways and means of separating the tares from the wheat.
Adulterers, separators of brethren, and those who go to law against a supposed brother instead of before the church, are tares.

Again, this is all just bald assertion and deflection from what I pointed out from 1 Corinthians 3.

There is no carnality in those walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

Right. But it is possible, as Paul indicated in Galatians 5, that a believer can be living in the Spirit but NOT walking in the Spirit. And when they aren't, they "bite and devour one another" (Galatians 5:15), living in the Spirit though they are.

Paul knew this..."And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal,..." (1 Cor 3:1)

Be honest in your quotation of Scripture, @Hopeful2.

1 Corinthians 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

Paul isn't speaking to the Corinthian church at large here, but directly and specifically to infant, fleshly brethren in Christ. How have you grown so blind to the plain statement of God's word?

The unrepentant never had any membership in God's family.

Repentance is an on-going thing in the life of every genuine believer. It is, in fact, an important sign of their spiritual growth. The believer who ceases to repent has wandered far from God.

You would have seen it differently if you had included verse 10 to the Eph 2:8-9 citing..."For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Those in Christ Jesus were created to do good works !

Yes. But being created in Christ Jesus unto good works is NOT the same as being created in Christ Jesus by good works, which you seem to think is the case. How have you missed this obvious but crucially important distinction? It's right there, plain as day, in Paul's words. Good works are the effect, the by-product, of being created in Christ Jesus, not the means by which one is created in him.

The same thing stands in your Titus 3 scriptures.
Had you added verse 8..."This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."...you would have seen that good works are our duty !

I've never indicated that good works are not the believer's duty. In fact, such works are more than a mere duty, they are the inevitable fruit of knowing and walking with God, as natural to the life of submitted believer as apples to an apple tree. But a branch of an apple tree that doesn't bear fruit, or bears small or sickly fruit, is not, therefore a branch in the apple tree. That's a silly non sequitur - just like asserting that a branch in the Vine, who is Christ, that doesn't yield fruit, or yields sickly or small fruit, is not therefore a branch in him.

Too many stretch the misguided POV that there is nothing we must do, to include even repentance from sin, in fear that is it may be seen as a work for salvation.
But without that turn from sin, there can be no salvation.

Where have I ever written that the Christian has "nothing to do"? Nowhere. What you're attacking here is a Strawman of my view, a false, cartoonish version of what I've put forward. Every believer is absolutely to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." But not in order to make themselves saved, only as the manifestation of the work of God in them. For it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13).

 

[electedbyHim]

Of course, they want a doctrine that allows, and in some cases, accommodates sin.

I did answer, so again, from post # 85...
"It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus also said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God."

So you are judging the hearts of many brothers in this thread. Can you prove that I hate the Lord?

I believe you have been taken in by the doctrine of demons.

So by your logic and how YOU interpret the Bible. You should have nothing to do with any so-called Christian on this forum that struggles with sin or even has sin in their lives. According to 1 Corinthians 5:11 you are breaking Gods law, which is sin. You should not be even associating with us sinners.

But now I am writing to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or greedy, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Is this correct?

 

[electedbyHim]

Crickets?

 

[jasonc]

A person before salvation didn't care for removing sin.

Paul was pharisee ,he didn't think he was murdering until he met Jesus .

Therefore Romans seven isn't about his days as a pharisee .