The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
I have not been in this as long as most of you have. But I don't see this. Has someone come out publicly and said they are sinless? That would be a pretty bold statement. Plus, as soon as they made it, they wouldn't be sinless anymore. Because saying that would be a lie.

Being sinless is not even a claim of any the apostles; and they were handpicked men of Jesus. They understood what sin really is and when it starts. This is how Jesus defined when sin begins:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin isn't just the act. It is the thought of the act. Who can control their minds to the point of never having a sinful thought? Using myself as an example, I'm a guy. I see a good looking woman in a tight outfit that emphasizes all the parts just so, sometimes I have a less than exemplary thought. Every guy here has to admit the same. The thought is my fleshly reaction. I am alive. I have a sex drive. The sight triggers the thought. I cannot stop the thought. And here we are; I have sinned.
But, from this point further, I can control what I do with the thought.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(Sidenote: This is one of the reasons I love Paul. I believe he was a sports nut also. He is talking about the ancient Olympic games here. The corruptible crown was made from olive branches. Sorry, this is one of my favorite passages.)

Back to the discussion: The last verse where Paul writes, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:" is my focus. Subjection means the state of being under the power, control and government of another. Can I bring my flesh under the control of the new creation that I have become? It turns out, I can! Am I perfect at it? Far from it. I can't completely stop the sin from where it started. I suspect this was Paul's issue as well.

Romans 7:14-17 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.
I do what I don't allow.
I don't do what I want to do.
I do what I hate.
If I do what I don't want to do, I am proving that the Law is good.
Pay very close attention to the last verse. Why is it no longer Paul that is doing the sin? It's his body. But it is no longer his heart.

I thank God Paul wrote this like he did. Paul struggled with sin the same as you and me. But it is no longer our hearts that sin. It's still me in that my flesh is going to have sinful thoughts from time to time. But by bringing my thoughts under control of my new creation, I can stop the thought from becoming an action. My flesh is still guilty of the thought, and I have to own it. I still need to pray and ask for forgiveness. But God still has my heart.

So, bottom line, it doesn't matter how others portray themselves on this cite. Know the truth, know yourself, and be honest. I am right there with Paul. I have struggled with sin all my life. It has gotten a little easier over the years. But I have to own what I am. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. It is His job to fix me.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Hey Josef
I agree with all you've said.
Just one comment:
Instead of thinking of yourself as a sinner, why not think of yourself as a child of God that sins every now and then due to our human fragility.
Someone on this forum taught me this a few years ago.

 

[GodsGrace]

Crickets?

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT YOU'RE IN THE THEOLOGY FORUM.
PLEASE MAINTAIN A DECORUM OF SERIOUSNESS.
THANKS.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[electedbyHim]

@Hopeful 2​

So you are judging the hearts of many brothers in this thread. Can you prove that I hate the Lord?

I believe you have been taken in by the doctrine of demons.

So by your logic and how YOU interpret the Bible. You should have nothing to do with any so-called Christian on this forum that struggles with sin or even has sin in their lives. According to 1 Corinthians 5:11 you are breaking Gods law, which is sin. You should not be even associating with us sinners.

But now I am writing to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or greedy, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Is this correct?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Glorification, to me, won't occur until I have my named called from the book of life.

Or when Christ returns and we're resurrected from the dead. Bodily and physically.

It is a macro-glorification and a micro-glorification.
We won't receive our macro-glorification until the day of the Lord's judgement, but by our actions here on earth, we can receive our micro-glorifications every day !
Have you ever been thanked for a donation ?
Or for a charitable gift ?
Those are micro-glorifications.

I doubt it. The way I see it, those are just a part of the sanctification journey.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Of course not.

Then why do you think sinners are "in Christ" ?

This is a big non sequitur.

Why do you think sinners are in Christ, if there can be no sin in Christ ?

Do you know what a non sequitur is? It's a conclusion that doesn't follow from its premises. Your statement above is one such conclusion. It doesn't follow that because a born-again person is "in Christ" all that Christ is, therefore, is in them.

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

It is painfully evident that no born-again person at conversion assumes all the infinite wisdom, knowledge and universe-creating power of Christ,

You are right, but they also don't carry the devil's seed with them anymore either.
We all grow in grace and mercy, but from a holy starting point.

nor do they take on his intrinsic aseity.

Nice word, but also but under discussion.
We will always be dependent on God.

No born-again believer looks out through Christ's eyes as he's seated at God the Father's right hand, gazing across the expanse of God's throne room in heaven. No born-again person can speak a universe into being. No born-again person knows all the innermost thoughts of another, as Christ does, or the number of atoms that exist, or what is within a galaxy-devouring black hole. But Christ does. No born-again believer upholds the existence of the universe moment-by-moment. But Christ does. What, then, does it mean to be "in Christ"? It can't - obviously - mean what you've asserted it does. Such an assertion is a gross non sequitur.

If you are discussing your points above, you are again correct.
I never inferred anything about the born again but that they can live without sin.
All the things you think or feel the reborn should be able to do are nice, but never mentioned in God's word.

And, furthermore, as I've already showed, what Paul wrote in his letter to the believers at Corinth also defies the idea "no sinner is in Christ." As does Revelation 2-3.

You really can't tell who is a believer or not, can you ?
John is commanded to write letters to the churches.
In the letters, the good are praised and the unbelievers are warned that if they don't repent they will perish.

Or 1 John 1:8-10.

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness/sin.
1 John 1:5, 7, and 9 address those who walk in the light/God.
Sinners cannot say they have fellowship with God, or that they have no sin.

Again, this is all just bald assertion and deflection from what I pointed out from 1 Corinthians 3.

But too much for you to answer ?
What part of "are you not carnal, and walk as men?" don't you understand ?
There are no carnal men in Christ Jesus.

Right. But it is possible, as Paul indicated in Galatians 5, that a believer can be living in the Spirit but NOT walking in the Spirit. And when they aren't, they "bite and devour one another" (Galatians 5:15), living in the Spirit though they are.

I suppose you are referring to Gal 5:25..."If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
So who is not walking in the Spirit ?
Those not living in the Spirit; sinners !
This is Paul's list of who they are..."Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)

Be honest in your quotation of Scripture, @Hopeful2.
1 Corinthians 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. .

Paul can't speak to them as Spiritual.
But he isn't willing to allow them to return to their sinful ways, (or to the ways of the Judaizers), without a fight.
He won't alienate them so he can get them to return to the Lord from whom they have drifted.

Where was I deceiving ?

Paul isn't speaking to the Corinthian church at large here, but directly and specifically to infant, fleshly brethren in Christ. How have you grown so blind to the plain statement of God's word?

"Fleshly brothers in Christ" is an oxymoron.
Nobody in the "flesh" is in Christ.
Paul was hoping he could convince those he could not talk to as Spiritual, but carnal, to leave the ways your teachers hope to ensconce in the church.

Repentance is an on-going thing in the life of every genuine believer. It is, in fact, an important sign of their spiritual growth. The believer who ceases to repent has wandered far from God.

No, it isn't.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.." (2 Cor 7:10)
One turn from sin is all that is needed...if the turn is real.

Yes. But being created in Christ Jesus unto good works is NOT the same as being created in Christ Jesus by good works, which you seem to think is the case.

Let me set your mind at ease, because I don't feel that way at all.

How have you missed this obvious but crucially important distinction? It's right there, plain as day, in Paul's words. Good works are the effect, the by-product, of being created in Christ Jesus, not the means by which one is created in him.

If good works are the effects of being in Christ, why can't you see that sins are the effects of not being in Christ ?

I've never indicated that good works are not the believer's duty. In fact, such works are more than a mere duty, they are the inevitable fruit of knowing and walking with God, as natural to the life of submitted believer as apples to an apple tree.

Why than can't you see that sinful work/fruit are not of God ?

But a branch of an apple tree that doesn't bear fruit, or bears small or sickly fruit, is not, therefore a branch in the apple tree. That's a silly non sequitur - just like asserting that a branch in the Vine, who is Christ, that doesn't yield fruit, or yields sickly or small fruit, is not therefore a branch in him.

God isn't like a natural tree.
His fruit doesn't fail.

Where have I ever written that the Christian has "nothing to do"?

I hope you never have, or will.

Nowhere. What you're attacking here is a Strawman of my view, a false, cartoonish version of what I've put forward.

It was a simple observation.

Every believer is absolutely to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." But not in order to make themselves saved,

If they don't "work out their salvation" they won't be saved on the last day.

only as the manifestation of the work of God in them. For it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13).

Who is it in them then that manifests the unrepentant's sins ?
The devil !

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you are judging the hearts of many brothers in this thread. Can you prove that I hate the Lord?

I said nothing of the sort.
Jesus said it.

I believe you have been taken in by the doctrine of demons.

Find a demon that preaches against sin.
Isn't it the accommodators of sin that do the devil's works?

So by your logic and how YOU interpret the Bible. You should have nothing to do with any so-called Christian on this forum that struggles with sin or even has sin in their lives. According to 1 Corinthians 5:11 you are breaking Gods law, which is sin. You should not be even associating with us sinners.

If I didn't love and have hope for sinners, I wouldn't be here.
Every man fits your 1 Cor 5:11 criterion, before they repent/turn from it.

Is this correct?

Paul, by the Holy Ghost, wrote it; so it is correct.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Crickets?

Not everyone's schedule meshes with everyone else's.

 

[Hopeful 2]

A person before salvation didn't care for removing sin.

What you refer to as salvation I call conversion...as until the day of judgement we don't know where we will end up.
I don't agree with your POV.

Paul was pharisee ,he didn't think he was murdering until he met Jesus .

So true.
In his pre-conversion mind, he was doing God's work persecuting the new way.

Therefore Romans seven isn't about his days as a pharisee

Part of it is,
All that he refers to that is of the flesh was from his Pharisaic, walking in the flesh days.
His references to the past, under the Law, starts in verse 5, and doesn't end until verse 25.
Then Rom 8 illustrates the differences between those walking in the flesh and those walking in the Spirit.
Rom 8:1..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Rom 8:6..."For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Rom 8:8..."So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Rom 8:13..."For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

On a side note, Paul uses the same A-B, A-B, A-B, technique in Romans 8 that John uses in 1 John 1.
It juxtaposes one thing against the other to show how incongruant they are one to another.
In Rom 8, it juxtaposes being in the Spirt with being in the flesh.
In 1 John 1, it juxtaposes walking in the light with walking in darkness.
I rejoice that the right choice was available to me.

.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Or when Christ returns and we're resurrected from the dead. Bodily and physically.

Yes, though I don't see much time between the two events.

I doubt it. The way I see it, those are just a part of the sanctification journey.

If the blood of Christ was applied to you, after a real repentance from sin, you are sanctified.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
He only had to offer His body once, for my sanctification: atonement, setting apart, consecrating, blessing.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, though I don't see much time between the two events.

I see a difference of 1000 years of Christ's kingdom.

If the blood of Christ was applied to you, after a real repentance from sin, you are sanctified.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
He only had to offer His body once, for my sanctification: atonement, setting apart, consecrating, blessing.

I've told you many times that's called JUSTIFICATION. His blood doesn't sanctify, it JUSTIFIES, the Holy Spirit sanctifies. Holy Spirit is that inner fire burning in our spiritual body temple, if you do believe that means "set apart" and "consecrate", then that's definitely not a one time event, but a lifetime process, or why would the five foolish virgins run out of oil (Matt. 25:8)? Why would Jesus warn the Ephesian church of removing their lampstand (Rev. 2:5)?

 

[electedbyHim]

I said nothing of the sort.
Jesus said it.

Find a demon that preaches against sin.
Isn't it the accommodators of sin that do the devil's works?

If I didn't love and have hope for sinners, I wouldn't be here.
Every man fits your 1 Cor 5:11 criterion, before they repent/turn from it.

Paul, by the Holy Ghost, wrote it; so it is correct.

I will keep you in my prayers.

The Lord is sovereign.

You have the right to your beliefs and interpret the Bible as you have been taught, this does not make it truth.

Many in this thread have given you plenty of Biblical truth, and you refuse to accept it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are the only person in this forum who believes they are sinless.

That in itself speaks volumes. This is unheard of and the Bible nowhere teaches this. I pray for those who taught you this heresy of sinless perfection.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

Then why do you think sinners are "in Christ" ?

I've already explained this in detail. Apparently, you aren't really reading carefully what I've been writing...

Why do you think sinners are in Christ, if there can be no sin in Christ ?

Again, I've already answered this from Scripture quite thoroughly. Go back and re-read my earlier posts, if you really want my answer to your question here.

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

Asked and answered.

The same apostle who wrote 1 John 3:9-10 also wrote:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

To whom is John speaking here? Well, he uses the words "we" and "us" in this passage, identifying himself with his readers, including himself in the matter of not claiming sinlessness. He wanted neither himself, nor his readers, to make the claim to sinlessness and thus be guilty of lying.

And,

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Why would John, an apostle of Christ, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, indicate that, like his readers, he had an Advocate with the Father should he sin? He uses the word "we," joining himself to his readers in his remarks to them about those occasions when they - and he - would sin. But how would such an occasion be possible for the apostle John if he was sinless as you contend, Hopeful 2? It seems very clear to me, that John never intended to convey to his readers in 1 John 3:9-10 that sin was an impossibility for the saved person, only that willfully practicing sin as a persistent, common thing indicated an absence of the "seed" of God within them. This view certainly comports better with the two passages above the John wrote than yours does, Hopeful 2.

And,

1 John 2:28
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

Why would John need to write such a thing to born-again believers with whom he has identified himself in earlier points in his letter? Here, too, John uses "we," including himself again in his own remarks. Like his readers, John also needed to be careful to "abide in him" so that he would not "shrink from Christ in shame at his coming." According to you, though, Hopeful 2, such a thing would have been impossible for the apostle John. Why does John, then, indicate otherwise here?

And,

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

John writes here that, like his born-again brethren, he is not yet like Christ. And he is not like Christ because he does not properly "see" him as he really is. This means, therefore, that John was imperfect in his Christ-likeness, which is to say sinful in some degree. This is what Paul also acknowledged of all believers in 1 Corinthians 13:12. Because none of us knows Christ as he truly is, because we "see through a glass darkly," none of us can properly emulate him, none of us can be like him perfectly. But where we are imperfect in our emulation, we sin; for God's standard for us is His own holy perfection. Close is not close enough for God. But John and Paul both have indicated perfection is beyond any of us simply because we don't really understand, we can't "see" Christ in all his sinless perfection. Here, too, then, John dissolves your sinless perfection view, Hopeful 2.

And,

1 John 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Finally, the apostle John, whose words you want to badly misconstrue as teaching sinless perfection, adds another "nail in the coffin" of your mistaken view. John indicates in verse 16 that a "brother" can commit a sin "not leading to death." In context, John is speaking, not of a biological family member, but of a spiritual brother, confirmed by John's repeated use of "we" in his comments in the verses surrounding the passage above.

John explains in the quotation above that not all sin results in physical death; but this doesn't mean it isn't "wrongdoing." If one observes a Christian brother sinning, one should pray that "God will give him life" rather than that God would strike him dead. As John wrote, "I do not say that one should pray for that" by which he meant pray for the physical death of a brother in the Lord who has sinned.

All of this should be moot, if a Christian brother is incapable of sinning, as you assert Hopeful 2. Clearly, John did not see things as you do, acknowledging instead that one's spiritual kin can sin and that, when they do, explaining how to pray about it.

In view of all this, I remain boggled by the degree of your willful blindness toward the plain and obvious declarations of God's word that born-again people do sin. If the light within you be darkness, how great is that darkness!

You are right, but they also don't carry the devil's seed with them anymore either.
We all grow in grace and mercy, but from a holy starting point.

This holiness is in Christ, applied to us forensically by God. But being clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ does not for a moment make us, in practice, sinlessly perfect. In fact, it is precisely because we cannot be perfect in our daily living that we so desperately need to be clothed in Christ's righteousness. But being so is a positional thing, a spiritual state-of-affairs to which the believer, over their entire lifetime, increasingly conforms their practical condition. This is clearly indicated in Romans 6. As Paul indicated in the chapter, it was because the believers at Rome were not living in conformity to the truth about themselves in Christ that he wrote to them what he did in the chapter. Such a state, though, would not be possible if you're sinless perfection thinking was correct, Hopeful 2.

You really can't tell who is a believer or not, can you ?

Sure I can. The "Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" by working in us as the Bible describes that he will:

- he convicts the born-again person (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3).
- he teaches the born-again person (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16).
- he strengthens the born-again person (Romans 8:9-13; Ephesians 3:16; Philippians 2;13; Philippians 4:13).
- he transforms the born-again person (Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29).
- he glorifies God within the born-again person (John 16:14).

Is the Spirit doing these things in you? He is in me - and many other believers I know (none of whom are sinlessly perfect).

 

[Tenchi]

But too much for you to answer ?
What part of "are you not carnal, and walk as men?" don't you understand ?
There are no carnal men in Christ Jesus.

I have answered. You just will not recognize that I have lest your false view collapse under the truth.

I suppose you are referring to Gal 5:25..."If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
So who is not walking in the Spirit ?
Those not living in the Spirit; sinners !

Absolutely false. What a foul twist you've given Paul's words here!

Galatians 5:25
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Paul makes it entirely plain here that he was writing to those who were already "living by the Spirit" (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11), telling them to ALSO, in addition to their living in the Spirit, walk by the Spirit. You deny the plain construction of Paul's words by suggesting as you do above that Paul was saying that not living in/by the Spirit was the cause of not walking in/by the Spirit. He doesn't say this at all. Wow. Do you see how slippery you're having to be with God's word in order to defend your erroneous view? You will pay a terrible price if you persist along this line with God's truth - especially when you urge others toward it!

Paul can't speak to them as Spiritual.
But he isn't willing to allow them to return to their sinful ways, (or to the ways of the Judaizers), without a fight.
He won't alienate them so he can get them to return to the Lord from whom they have drifted.

Just more bald-faced obfuscation and deflection. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3:1 need no more defense than I've already given them. Any honest reader of his words understands your "spin" on them is false.

"Fleshly brothers in Christ" is an oxymoron.
Nobody in the "flesh" is in Christ.
Paul was hoping he could convince those he could not talk to as Spiritual, but carnal, to leave the ways your teachers hope to ensconce in the church.

1 Corinthians 3:1
1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

No, it isn't.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.." (2 Cor 7:10)
One turn from sin is all that is needed...if the turn is real.

Nope. In context, your proof-text actually denies your false contortion of it:

2 Corinthians 7:9-11
9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.

Paul is speaking to Christian brethren here - brethren who, feeling a "godly grief" over their conduct toward Paul, "were grieved into repenting."

10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
11 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

What "matter" is Paul referring to?

2 Corinthians 7:8
8 For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it—though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while.

How did Paul grieve them with his letter?

Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11.

In response to the harsh criticisms Paul made of the believers at Corinth, they responded with godly sorrow to his criticisms, repenting of their sin (AS BELIEVERS) and clearing themselves of the charges Paul had laid against them. Paul even refers to this early in his second letter to them:

2 Corinthians 2:5-9
5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.
6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,
7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.
9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

It's quite bizarre in light of all this to hold that Christians are sinless. Paul's letters to the church at Corinth alone quite destroys the false sinless perfection doctrine.

If good works are the effects of being in Christ, why can't you see that sins are the effects of not being in Christ ?

Because this is glaring non sequitur. And so, my question to you is also "Why can't you see this?"

For starters, good works are not always the effect of being in Christ. Lost people do good things all the time: An unsaved firefighter saves a child from a burning building; an unsaved brain surgeon saves a man from his cancerous brain tumor; an unsaved "nice old lady" gives milk and cookies to neighborhood children, and so on. So, the first part of your line of reasoning is false.

As I've shown pretty comprehensively, Scripture clearly reveals that sin is not the sole domain of someone not in Christ. So the second line of your reasoning falls apart, too.

Why than can't you see that sinful work/fruit are not of God ?

I've never said that they were. How confused you are in your understanding!

God isn't like a natural tree.
His fruit doesn't fail.

You've not shown this at all. The verses you've cited for your view have actually shown the reverse!

I hope you never have, or will.

Deflection.

It was a simple observation.

And also a Strawman.

If they don't "work out their salvation" they won't be saved on the last day.

Nope. Salvation is in a Person, not our good deeds.

John 14:6
Acts 4:12
1 Timothy 2:5
Titus 3:5
Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Timothy 1:9

 

[Hopeful 2]

I see a difference of 1000 years of Christ's kingdom.

OK, I reserve comment.

I've told you many times that's called JUSTIFICATION. His blood doesn't sanctify, it JUSTIFIES, the Holy Spirit sanctifies. Holy Spirit is that inner fire burning in our spiritual body temple, if you do believe that means "set apart" and "consecrate", then that's definitely not a one time event, but a lifetime process, or why would the five foolish virgins run out of oil (Matt. 25:8)? Why would Jesus warn the Ephesian church of removing their lampstand (Rev. 2:5)?

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us.
It is written... 10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb 10:10, 14)
And..."Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:29)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I will keep you in my prayers.

Likewise.

The Lord is sovereign.

Not to sinners, He isn't.

You have the right to your beliefs and interpret the Bible as you have been taught, this does not make it truth.

Didn't Jesus say that the truth would free us from service to sin ?
Yes, He did...in John 8:32-34)

Many in this thread have given you plenty of Biblical truth, and you refuse to accept it.

I refuse to accept accommodations for sin.
They cannot be from God.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are the only person in this forum who believes they are sinless.

I hope not.

That in itself speaks volumes. This is unheard of and the Bible nowhere teaches this. I pray for those who taught you this heresy of sinless perfection.

If more than half of America thinks its OK to kill the unborn, does it make it right ?

Grace and peace to you.

God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[GodsGrace]

Then why do you think sinners are "in Christ" ?

Why do you think sinners are in Christ, if there can be no sin in Christ ?

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

You are right, but they also don't carry the devil's seed with them anymore either.
We all grow in grace and mercy, but from a holy starting point.

Nice word, but also but under discussion.
We will always be dependent on God.

If you are discussing your points above, you are again correct.
I never inferred anything about the born again but that they can live without sin.
All the things you think or feel the reborn should be able to do are nice, but never mentioned in God's word.

You really can't tell who is a believer or not, can you ?
John is commanded to write letters to the churches.
In the letters, the good are praised and the unbelievers are warned that if they don't repent they will perish.

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness/sin.
1 John 1:5, 7, and 9 address those who walk in the light/God.
Sinners cannot say they have fellowship with God, or that they have no sin.

But too much for you to answer ?
What part of "are you not carnal, and walk as men?" don't you understand ?
There are no carnal men in Christ Jesus.

I suppose you are referring to Gal 5:25..."If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
So who is not walking in the Spirit ?
Those not living in the Spirit; sinners !
This is Paul's list of who they are..."Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,

Then why do you think sinners are "in Christ" ?

Hi Hopeful,
I just want to comment on a couple of things said here.

Being in Christ just means that we are in Him in the sense that we are protected by Him.
I let the little kids bring in 3 envelopes. A small one, a medium one and a big one.
The little envelope, with their name on it, goes into the medium one, with Jesus' name on it.
So the child is in Jesus....he is protected by Him, just like we are.
The very reason we need protecting is because we're going to fall into sin.
If we were perfectly sinless, there would be no need for this protection.

There are many verses about how God protects us:
Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Philippians 3:14
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
1 John 5:18
We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

Why do you think sinners are in Christ, if there can be no sin in Christ ?

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

The NASB says:
NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRACTICES SIN.

There's a difference between committing a sin,
and living in sin, or, making a practice of sin.

You are right, but they also don't carry the devil's seed with them anymore either.
We all grow in grace and mercy, but from a holy starting point.

Nice word, but also but under discussion.
We will always be dependent on God.

If you are discussing your points above, you are again correct.
I never inferred anything about the born again but that they can live without sin.
All the things you think or feel the reborn should be able to do are nice, but never mentioned in God's word.

You really can't tell who is a believer or not, can you ?
John is commanded to write letters to the churches.
In the letters, the good are praised and the unbelievers are warned that if they don't repent they will perish.

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness/sin.
1 John 1:5, 7, and 9 address those who walk in the light/God.
Sinners cannot say they have fellowship with God, or that they have no sin.

But too much for you to answer ?
What part of "are you not carnal, and walk as men?" don't you understand ?
There are no carnal men in Christ Jesus.

There can be carnal person in Christ.
When someone comes to believe, their life could change instantaneously, or it could take some time.
God works as He wills in us. Our character has something to do with how fast we become transformed.
We may become positionally sanctified in Christ, but we also must become literally sanctified - put aside for God's use. This may not happen right away. To say so would probably cause discomfort to some new Christians - feeling that they cannot be good enough for God. They could be so discouraged as to give up.

I suppose you are referring to Gal 5:25..."If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
So who is not walking in the Spirit ?
Those not living in the Spirit; sinners !
This is Paul's list of who they are..."Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)

It states THOSE WHO DO these things.....present tense.
Do you know any believer that murders, practices witchcraft, etc.
I don't.

Those who DO these things will not enter the Kingdom of God.
Neither the one in heaven or the one on earth.

Paul can't speak to them as Spiritual.
But he isn't willing to allow them to return to their sinful ways, (or to the ways of the Judaizers), without a fight.
He won't alienate them so he can get them to return to the Lord from whom they have drifted.

"Fleshly brothers in Christ" is an oxymoron.
Nobody in the "flesh" is in Christ.
Paul was hoping he could convince those he could not talk to as Spiritual, but carnal, to leave the ways your teachers hope to ensconce in the church.

No, it isn't.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.." (2 Cor 7:10)
One turn from sin is all that is needed...if the turn is real.

I agree with you.
Once repents one time and after that it's HOLY sorrow, GODLY sorrow, that one feels for having sin - the sin is confessed and the path toward God continues.
The word repentance is not used correctly...it's used to mean: feel sorry for.

Let me set your mind at ease, because I don't feel that way at all.

If good works are the effects of being in Christ, why can't you see that sins are the effects of not being in Christ ?

Why than can't you see that sinful work/fruit are not of God ?

Of course a sin is not of God.
It's caused by man, with all his fragilities that he has.
God knows who is doing their best and who is not.

God isn't like a natural tree.
His fruit doesn't fail.

I hope you never have, or will.

It was a simple observation.

If they don't "work out their salvation" they won't be saved on the last day.

Who is it in them then that manifests the unrepentant's sins ?
The devil !

I believe all on this thread have repented.
It's not for us to say.

 

[Runningman]

The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here​

I wonder if Iconoclast includes apostle John, Peter, Paul and Jesus with the heretics as well?

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one
cannot touch him.

2 Peter 1
10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble

1 Corinthians 15
34Sober up as you ought, and stop sinning; for some of you are ignorant of God. I say this to your shame.

John 8
11“No one, Lord,” she answered.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

 

[electedbyHim]

Likewise.

Not to sinners, He isn't.

Didn't Jesus say that the truth would free us from service to sin ?
Yes, He did...in John 8:32-34)

I refuse to accept accommodations for sin.
They cannot be from God.

I hope not.

If more than half of America thinks its OK to kill the unborn, does it make it right ?

God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

Let me ask you a few questions.

Do you struggle with sin or temptation?

How do you maintain your sinless perfection?

How do us Christians on this site (that have sin and struggle with sin), how can we love the Lord and call Him Lord?

Unbelievers are at odd with the true and living God of the Bible. They hate God, this is Biblical. How can I love the written word of God so much that I need it to feed on and live. Why does the Lord answer my deepest prayers, why has He blessed me spiritually? These things I have listed are not something the unregenerate do.

Please answer truthfully.

 

[Free]

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children.

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them.:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

John certainly seems to consider himself and all believers as sinners that need to confess their sins continually before God. He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we need to continually confess and why we have an advocate with the Father.

1 John 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one
cannot touch him.

Do you agree that context is important?

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

John explicitly says that believers commit sin. We should also consider what he says in chapter 3:

Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin, and repeats that in chapter 5. So, who John is speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10? Those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin; they cannot be believers. Yet he makes the case that believers do sin. It's just that their lives are not characterized by it--they confess their sins because they have an advocate before the Father.

 

[electedbyHim]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children.

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them.:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

John certainly seems to consider himself and all believers as sinners that need to confess their sins continually before God. He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we need to continually confess and why we have an advocate with the Father.


Do you agree that context is important?

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

John explicitly says that believers commit sin. We should also consider what he says in chapter 3:

Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin, and repeats that in chapter 5. So, who John is speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10? Those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin; they cannot be believers. Yet he makes the case that believers do sin. It's just that their lives are not characterized by it--they confess their sins because they have an advocate before the Father.

This is very well written.