The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[GodsGrace]

Sure.

Not much of a protector than.
If we are in Christ, we won't do devilish things.

This is what I mean.
If we're IN CHRIST, we won't do devilish things.
We need to distinguish between falling into a sin,
and serving satan.
Romans 6 I believe, DON'T YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE A SLAVE TO THE ONE YOU SERVE.
We serve God, not satan.

I don't know why you would say that, as our intercessor is available all the time...even in heavy traffic.

I don't understand your reply:

If we were perfectly sinless, there would be no need for this protection.

You: I don't know why you would say that, as our intercessor is available all the time...even in heavy traffic.

I didn't make my point maybe.
IF we were perfectly sinless, we would not need the protection Jesus offered to us when He atoned for our sins...
Our Sins. Past, present and future.

IF we were perfectly sinless, we would have no need of an advocate.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

I read 1 John 2:1 in different bibles, even the Italian one - it very much represents the original meaning of the greek.
Anyway, the word MAY used above SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN...
means that sinning is possible.
Here's the meaning from Webster's:

1

—used to indicate possibility or probability
you may be right
things you may need

—sometimes used interchangeably with can
one of those slipups that may happen from time to time—Jessica Mitford

—sometimes used where mightwould be expected
you may think from a little distance that the country was solid woods—Robert Frost
b
: have permission to
you may go now

: be free to
a rug on which children may sprawl—C. E. Silberman


—used nearly interchangeably with can
c
archaic : have the ability to

2

—used in auxiliary function expressing purpose or expectation
I laugh that I may not weep
or contingency
she'll do her duty come what may
or concession
he may be slow but he is thorough
or choice
the angler may catch them with a dip net, or he may cast a large, bare treble hook—Nelson Bryant


Sinning is POSSIBLE...
John writes to try to GUIDE US to not sin....
BUT IF WE DO SIN....

This makes sense Hopeful.

The words "practice of" are not in the KJV of the bible.
Do fig seeds ever bring forth grapes ?
How then can God's seed ever bring forth lies and theft ?

That's a metaphor.
So are we not God's children because we fall into sin and Jesus has to be our advocate in our defense?
Isn't this what John was stating in 1 John 2:1 ?

The KJV says THAT YOU SIN NOT.
So how do you reconcile that with 1 John 3:9 HE WHO IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN....
With:
1 John 1: 9 IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS...
Forgive us: Present tense. John is speaking of present sins.

1 John 1:10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR.


I used the KJV for the above.
It makes no sense unless you can reconcile the two ideas somehow..
It can't say we will not sin and then make provision for sinning.

Get a better version of the KJV of the bible.
Fig seeds never bring forth grape vines.

I use many versions.
My KJV is the same one you use.
Check the wording...

Plenty of so-called believers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Their actions will illustrate from whom they are born.

Then everyone is going to hell except a very few that believe they never sin.
Of course, that will be up to God to decide at the judgment ---

Me neither.
I also don't know any believers who commit adultery, steal, or tell lies.

I agree.
There might be some exception...
for which Jesus will speak in our defense if we're sorry for our sin.

Thank God for allowing us to be new creatures.
Creatures better than the mere men we once were.

Amen.

Isn't it for us to know ?
If one sins, they have not repented of sin.

We can have an idea if one is a believer or not.
But we can't know for sure. We're not the ones to judge the soul of a person.

What does repent mean to you?

 

[Tenchi]

If the knowledge that we CAN submit to God perfectly doesn't lead towards God, what will ?

The knowledge that the grace of God, His unmerited favor, mercy and power, are extended to us apart from our good deeds and in a degree of super-abundance that all the sin of all mankind for all time cannot exceed. To the Source of such astounding grace millions of lost sinners have come, yielding their hearts to Him, praising the amazing God whose boundless love would not let their sin keep them from knowing and walking with Him.

Romans 5:20-21
20 ...But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

The knowledge that the grace of God, His unmerited favor, mercy and power, are extended to us apart from our good deeds and in a degree of super-abundance that all the sin of all mankind for all time cannot exceed. To the Source of such astounding grace millions of lost sinners have come, yielding their hearts to Him, praising the amazing God whose boundless love would not let their sin keep them from knowing and walking with Him.

Romans 5:20-21
20 ...But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Titus 3:5-7

 

[Runningman]

We will never reach sinless perfection in this life. That is not a biblical idea. We always sin, every day, even in ways we don't often realize; there often isn't some obvious temptation. We should be sinning less and less if we're growing in sanctification.

I lean towards telling people they can stop sinning rather than telling them that they always sin and thus offer them a sense of enablement, even a condoning of, sin; people do not always sin, I don't anyway. Also, I would let them know that they will most likely sin again, but if they do that's when they can repent. The idea is a continual striving toward doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality. These people will receive eternal life... wrath for the rest.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't know what you are reading, but it isn't Heb 10:29.

What I was reading was the simple context of the chapter. Your “reprint” is invalid when you take it out of context.

 

[Free]

I lean towards telling people they can stop sinning rather than telling them that they always sin and thus offer them a sense of enablement, even a condoning of, sin;

Well, again, the Bible doesn't say we will or even can stop sinning in this life. So, telling someone "they can stop sinning" is misleading and could even lead them to despair, thinking they're a bad Christian or not saved because they are struggling with sin.

The list of sins of commission and omission is long. I think there are some that many Christians don't even think about and realize they are committing.

people do not always sin, I don't anyway.

No idolatry; God is always first in everything? No failing to love God completely at all times? No "little white lies"? No worry? No foolish talk or coarse joking? No grumbling? No selfishness; absolutely everything is done for the benefit of others and the glory of God? You always work with the utmost integrity?

Be careful of the deceitfulness of sin. John warns against claiming at any point that we have no sin (1 John 1:8).

Also, I would let them know that they will most likely sin again, but if they do that's when they can repent. The idea is a continual striving toward doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality. These people will receive eternal life... wrath for the rest.

This I agree with.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What does John 20: 23 mean to you?
20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


Why would Jesus give authority to the Apostles to forgive sins if He knew persons would never sin again after becoming born again as in John 3:5?

It is because the sins from their pasts need to be forgiven.
It is done by water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

I don't understand why you cited John 3:5. ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

We've spoken about this Hopeful.
The above is not true.
You intend to show folks that obedience is possible
and you say that Tenchi 's and other members is to show that obedience is not possible.

I've said this before that what you post believing you're doing well will actually discourage many new Christians because you're setting a goal that is not attainable.

No one on this thread is stating that we MUST sin ....
What we're saying is that we will not wish to sin, but sometimes we will.
Saying that you never sin IS A SIN...it is the sin of pride.
Pride and ego lead to many sins.
Boasting that one never sins is
1. a lie as shown in scripture.
2. a sin because of the lie and because of the proudfull statement.

If I said I know scripture more than anyone, that would be a prideful statement and a sin.
This is what you're, in effect, doing.

God has made the way to be perfect before Him.
Rom 12:1..."I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Apostles don't beseech/command the impossible.

Jesus said the path is narrow.
Narrow.
But it is still walkable. There's room for a falling.

There's a difference between a sin. and living a life of sin.
This is what you don't seem to be able to understand.
So many verses given to you that are ignored.
So what's the use of reading the bible?

If no one must sin, then perfect sinlessness is possible.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The CC seems to be known for works salvation,
and even THAT CHURCH believes man will sin -

They insure that man will keep committing sin by hiding the fact that one, true, repentance from sin would end their wickedness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And yet Scripture never says we can become sinless in this life. If we could, it means we could become perfect, but not even Paul made that claim:

I am aware of these passages where Paul does make that claim..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(Gal 2:20)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:" (1 Thes 2:10)

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (ESV)

What Paul had yet to attain was the resurrection from the dead (v 11) and a glorified vessel.
He alludes to the vessel again in verse 21.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What I was reading was the simple context of the chapter. Your “reprint” is invalid when you take it out of context.

You should look at a wider context.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You should look at a wider context.

The wider context of the entire book is that Christianity, known as "the Way", was marginalized as a cult, whereas Judaism was legally recongized and accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Therefore many Jews gave up and went back to Judaism practices, including Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifice. Hebrews was the reponse to that, it told them that the old system was obsolete, Christ is the only legitimate high priest and the only legitimate offering to God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is what I mean.
If we're IN CHRIST, we won't do devilish things.

We can stay in Christ all the time.

We need to distinguish between falling into a sin,
and serving satan.
Romans 6 I believe, DON'T YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE A SLAVE TO THE ONE YOU SERVE.
We serve God, not satan.

There is no difference.
Jesus said...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin ! (John 8:34)

I don't understand your reply:
You: I don't know why you would say that, as our intercessor is available all the time...even in heavy traffic.

You said the sinless don't need His protection, but if anything, the devil tries even harder to corrupt the faithful.
We need His help for everything, including safety on the roads.

I didn't make my point maybe.
IF we were perfectly sinless, we would not need the protection Jesus offered to us when He atoned for our sins...
Our Sins. Past, present and future.

The only sins washed away by the blood of Christ are past sins..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Rom 3:25)
(Perhaps you can sh
ow some verse where Jesus offered us protection when He died for our sins.)

IF we were perfectly sinless, we would have no need of an advocate.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

I read 1 John 2:1 in different bibles, even the Italian one - it very much represents the original meaning of the greek.
Anyway, the word MAY used above SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN...
means that sinning is possible.

The sinless have already used the Advocate.
Henceforth He is still at our side to help us in ordinary day-to-day life.
I ask for His blessings on everything I eat.
Sinners can't get that blessing.

Sinning is POSSIBLE...
John writes to try to GUIDE US to not sin....
BUT IF WE DO SIN....

If we sin, we don't know God, and we have no fellowship with Him, and are walking in darkness.
How do we know we know God ?
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3)

This makes sense Hopeful.

It would make John 9:31 and 1 Peter 3:12 lies.
Quit sinning, then ask for advocacy.

That's a metaphor.

It may be a metaphor for those that want to keep sinning.
Do fig seeds ever bring forth grapes ?
God's seed will never bring forth liars or thieves.

So are we not God's children because we fall into sin and Jesus has to be our advocate in our defense?
Isn't this what John was stating in 1 John 2:1 ?

God's children don't fall into sin.
1 John 3:10 says it is the devil's children
Jesus will advocate for those who want to, as Peter put it in 1 Peter 4:1... "cease from sin".

The KJV says THAT YOU SIN NOT.
So how do you reconcile that with 1 John 3:9 HE WHO IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN....
With:
1 John 1: 9 IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS...
Forgive us: Present tense. John is speaking of present sins.

Verse 9. of 1 John 1, is the starting point for those who will walk in the light.
"Confess", then have all your past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, and continue from that point in the light-God.

1 John 1:10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR.

Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness-sin.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin.

I used the KJV for the above.
It makes no sense unless you can reconcile the two ideas somehow..
It can't say we will not sin and then make provision for sinning.

John is using the A-B, A-B, A-B system of writhing.
It juxtaposes one condition against another in order to magnify their opposition to one another.
In 1 John, the conditions are walking in the light-God and walking in the darkness-sin.
Paul use the same method in Rom 8 to juxtapose walking in the flesh against walking in the Spirit.

I use many versions.
My KJV is the same one you use.
Check the wording...

So your other versions of the KJV ever say that fig seeds can bring forth grapes ?

Then everyone is going to hell except a very few that believe they never sin.
Of course, that will be up to God to decide at the judgment ---

Most will go to hell because they don't believe God.
The God that has been saying "Be ye holy for I am holy" since the middle of the OT. (Lev. 11)

I agree.
There might be some exception...

Then you don't agree.

for which Jesus will speak in our defense if we're sorry for our sin.

Only if you never do them again. (2 Cor 7:10)

Amen.

If we are still disobedient to God, are we any better ?

We can have an idea if one is a believer or not.
But we can't know for sure. We're not the ones to judge the soul of a person.

No murderers. thieves, or adulterers are of God.

What does repent mean to you?

It means "turn from", or, "change".
If a liar repents of lying, he no longer lies.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The knowledge that the grace of God, His unmerited favor, mercy and power, are extended to us apart from our good deeds and in a degree of super-abundance that all the sin of all mankind for all time cannot exceed. To the Source of such astounding grace millions of lost sinners have come, yielding their hearts to Him, praising the amazing God whose boundless love would not let their sin keep them from knowing and walking with Him.

You don't think that the ability to maintain that cleanliness matters too ?
If all your past sins have been cleansed by our graceful Lord, and you are thankful for it, how on earth would you ever return to those sins ?

Like Paul said..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The wider context of the entire book is that Christianity, known as "the Way", was marginalized as a cult,

It still is.

whereas Judaism was legally recongized and accepted religion in the Roman Empire.

Who cares what man thinks.

Therefore many Jews gave up and went back to Judaism practices, including Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifice. Hebrews was the reponse to that, it told them that the old system was obsolete, Christ is the only legitimate high priest and the only legitimate offering to God.

As animal blood wasn't used to remove sin anymore, it was the blood of Christ that would clean and sanctify from then. on.
Heb 13:12..."Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It still is.

Who cares what man thinks.

As animal blood wasn't used to remove sin anymore, it was the blood of Christ that would clean and sanctify from then. on.
Heb 13:12..."Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."

Offering is not over, we're demanded as a living sacrifice to God every day, that requires the Holy Spirit.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1)
Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. (Heb. 13:15)

 

[Tenchi]

You don't think that the ability to maintain that cleanliness matters too ?
If all your past sins have been cleansed by our graceful Lord, and you are thankful for it, how on earth would you ever return to those sins ?

Gratefulness is not enough. And anyway, God accepts no obedience to His commands that doesn't arise from love for Him. See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. See Matthew 22:36-38. Gratefulness isn't love.


Of course it matters that the born-again believer be able to be holy as God has commanded. And they can be as they are under the control of the Holy Spirit and standing by faith in the truth of who they are in Christ. (Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13)

Why tell those who are Christ's to depart from iniquity when they are sinlessly perfect?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Offering is not over, we're demaned as a living sacrifice to God every day, that requires the Holy Spirit.

The offering for our sins was killed over 2000 years ago.
It is over.
And how are we damned if we have been redeemed, and reborn of God ?

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1)

Paul's pleas for sinless perfection did not go unheeded.

Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. (Heb. 13:15)

Is our praise for our Redeemer really a sacrifice ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Gratefulness is not enough. And anyway, God accepts no obedience to His commands that doesn't arise from love for Him. See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. See Matthew 22:36-38. Gratefulness isn't love.

Does anyone love God ?

Of course it matters that the born-again believer be able to be holy as God has commanded. And they can be as they are under the control of the Holy Spirit and standing by faith in the truth of who they are in Christ. (Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13)

Great, I think you might be merging onto the road I travel.

Why tell those who are Christ's to depart from iniquity when they are sinlessly perfect?

Perhaps for the benefit of those who have been hoodwinked into thinking they can continue to offend God and it won't matter ?
Or maybe as a warning to the unbelievers who may be reading this 2000 years later.
Conversion comes with duties.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And how are we damned if we have been redeemed, and reborn of God ?

By grieving the Holy Spirit. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31-32.

Paul's pleas for sinless perfection did not go unheeded.

He didn't plead for sinless perfection, you made that up.

Is our praise for our Redeemer really a sacrifice ?

Ask yourself what sacrifice means. At least offering is certainly not over.