The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Carry_Your_Name]

OK, I reserve comment.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us.
It is written... 10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb 10:10, 14)
And..."Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:29)

No, the anointing of the spirit sanctifies us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I've already explained this in detail. Apparently, you aren't really reading carefully what I've been writing

All you showed was that Paul got on the cases of the posers.

Again, I've already answered this from Scripture quite thoroughly. Go back and re-read my earlier posts, if you really want my answer to your question here.

I really think it odd that you think there is sin in Christ.

Asked and answered.

No it isn't.

The same apostle who wrote 1 John 3:9-10 also wrote
1 John 1:8-10
To whom is John speaking here? Well, he uses the words "we" and "us" in this passage, identifying himself with his readers, including himself in the matter of not claiming sinlessness. He wanted neither himself, nor his readers, to make the claim to sinlessness and thus be guilty of lying.

John is speaking to the church, about both those who walk in darkness-sin, and those who walk in the light-God.
Two different kinds of men.
Some of the verses deal with the corrupt, (v 6.8.10), and others deal with the faithful. (v 5,7,and 9)
"If we...", "If we...", "If we...".
Walk in the light, and we won't commit sin !

1 John 2:1
Why would John, an apostle of Christ, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, indicate that, like his readers, he had an Advocate with the Father should he sin?

You sure read a lot into it that isn't there.
The "any man" are they who have not yet prevailed upon the Advocate to wash away their sins with His blood.

He uses the word "we," joining himself to his readers in his remarks to them about those occasions when they - and he - would sin.

The clean have an Advocate for the unclean to use.

But how would such an occasion be possible for the apostle John if he was sinless as you contend, Hopeful 2?

It wouldn't, unless John were to betray Jesus with a sin.
As long as he keeps walking in the light-God, he won't commit any sin.

It seems very clear to me, that John never intended to convey to his readers in 1 John 3:9-10 that sin was an impossibility

Again you are reading things into the verse that are not there.
You aren't one of those who thinks they can get grapes from a fig tree, are you ?
Why than, do you suppose God's can ever bring forth liars and thieves ?
I am glad John added this to the second chapter of 1 John..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

And,
1 John 2:28
Why would John need to write such a thing to born-again believers with whom he has identified himself in earlier points in his letter?

Just another admonission, so the faithful don't return to perdition.

And,
1 John 3:2
John writes here that, like his born-again brethren, he is not yet like Christ.

You misread it.
When He comes we shall see Him being just as He is.

And he is not like Christ because he does not properly "see" him as he really is.

Christ has a glorified body, and so will we when He comes.

This means, therefore, that John was imperfect in his Christ-likeness, which is to say sinful in some degree. This is what Paul also acknowledged of all believers in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

I Cor 13:12..."And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Looks more like he is giving us an example in order to emphasize the value of charity.

Because none of us knows Christ as he truly is, because we "see through a glass darkly," none of us can properly emulate him, none of us can be like him perfectly. But where we are imperfect in our emulation, we sin;

I find myself perfectly able to emulate Him in His daily life on earth.

for God's standard for us is His own holy perfection. Close is not close enough for God. But John and Paul both have indicated perfection is beyond any of us simply because we don't really understand, we can't "see" Christ in all his sinless perfection. Here, too, then, John dissolves your sinless perfection view, Hopeful 2.

Thanks be to God we can be more than "close".
Thank God for His disciples' exhortations, and admonissions to keep us on track !

And,
1 John 5:16-17

Men can commit sin, but Christians can't.
If they do commit sin, they are of a different father.
The "brothers" in question are either familial or national in nature.
Not brothers in Christ.

John explains in the quotation above that not all sin results in physical death;

Yes, the sins that are really turned from won't end up with a second death.
They will end up with a second death if one keeps doing them.

but this doesn't mean it isn't "wrongdoing." If one observes a Christian brother sinning, one should pray that "God will give him life" rather than that God would strike him dead. As John wrote, "I do not say that one should pray for that" by which he meant pray for the physical death of a brother in the Lord who has sinned.

"Christian" brothers who sin were pretenders.
They are the "any man" from 1 John 2:1.

All of this should be moot, if a Christian brother is incapable of sinning, as you assert Hopeful 2. Clearly, John did not see things as you do, acknowledging instead that one's spiritual kin can sin and that, when they do, explaining how to pray about it.

Man can sin, but not Christians who have crucified the flesh with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

In view of all this, I remain boggled by the degree of your willful blindness toward the plain and obvious declarations of God's word that born-again people do sin. If the light within you be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Your defense of sin was in depth and thorough.
But it is a waste of time on those who have been freed from service to sin by the Truth. (John 8:32-34)

This holiness is in Christ, applied to us forensically by God. But being clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ does not for a moment make us, in practice, sinlessly perfect.

It is a pity you see it that way.
I don't.
In Christ there is no in.
I cannot have sin on me and be in Christ.

In fact, it is precisely because we cannot be perfect in our daily living that we so desperately need to be clothed in Christ's righteousness.

Silk shirts on swine is somewhat befitting of your POV.
It reminds me of..."As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion." (Pro 11:22)

But being so is a positional thing, a spiritual state-of-affairs to which the believer, over their entire lifetime, increasingly conforms their practical condition.

Believers will grow in grace and knowledge, but not in knowledge of ways to keep committing sin.
Thanks be to God we have His promise of escapes from every temptation.
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

This is clearly indicated in Romans 6.

No it isn't.

As Paul indicated in the chapter, it was because the believers at Rome were not living in conformity to the truth about themselves in Christ that he wrote to them what he did in the chapter. Such a state, though, would not be possible if you're sinless perfection thinking was correct

Again, you are reading things into it to bolster your bias towards sinfulness.

Sure I can. The "Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" by working in us as the Bible describes that he will:

(John 16:8; Revelation 2-3).
(John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16).
(Romans 8:9-13; Ephesians 3:16; Philippians 2;13; Philippians 4:13).
(Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29).
(John 16:14).

Is the Spirit doing these things in you? He is in me - and many other believers I know (none of whom are sinlessly perfect).

The only thing you seem to be unaware of is what are the characteristics of the born again.
The fruit illustrates the Originator of the seed.
Sinners are not reborn of God's seed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I have answered. You just will not recognize that I have lest your false view collapse under the truth.

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

Absolutely false. What a foul twist you've given Paul's words here!
Galatians 5:25
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Paul makes it entirely plain here that he was writing to those who were already "living by the Spirit" (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11), telling them to ALSO, in addition to their living in the Spirit, walk by the Spirit. You deny the plain construction of Paul's words by suggesting as you do above that Paul was saying that not living in/by the Spirit was the cause of not walking in/by the Spirit. He doesn't say this at all. Wow. Do you see how slippery you're having to be with God's word in order to defend your erroneous view? You will pay a terrible price if you persist along this line with God's truth - especially when you urge others

If we are living in the Spirit, we will walk in the Spirit.
That makes sure we won't sin.

. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3:1 need no more defense than I've already given them. Any honest reader of his words understands your "spin" on them is false.

1 Corinthians 3:1
1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

Paul isn't going to alienate those who need correction.

2 Corinthians 7:9-11
9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.
Paul is speaking to Christian brethren here - brethren who, feeling a "godly grief" over their conduct toward Paul, "were grieved into repenting."

With a real repentance, they won't sin.

11 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.
What "matter" is Paul referring to?

Probably the taking of a brother before the law of the land, and not before the church for judgement.
But maybe any of the things he confronted in 1 Cor.

2 Corinthians 7:8
8 For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it—though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while.
How did Paul grieve them with his letter?

He made them sorrowful enough to quit doing the things in question.

Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11.
It's quite bizarre in light of all this to hold that Christians are sinless. Paul's letters to the church at Corinth alone quite destroys the false sinless perfection doctrine.

I don't picture the church as unclean.
I see Paul trying to undo those things that will take the Corinthians to hell.

As I've shown pretty comprehensively, Scripture clearly reveals that sin is not the sole domain of someone not in Christ. So the second line of your reasoning falls apart, too.

You only think you have, as there is no sin in Christ there can be no sin in those in Christ.
Why are you continuing to prove there is sin in Christ ?

Nope. Salvation is in a Person, not our good deeds.

?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hopeful,
I just want to comment on a couple of things said here.

Sure.

Being in Christ just means that we are in Him in the sense that we are protected by Him.
I let the little kids bring in 3 envelopes. A small one, a medium one and a big one.
The little envelope, with their name on it, goes into the medium one, with Jesus' name on it.
So the child is in Jesus....he is protected by Him, just like we are.
The very reason we need protecting is because we're going to fall into sin.

Not much of a protector than.
If we are in Christ, we won't do devilish things.

If we were perfectly sinless, there would be no need for this protection.

I don't know why you would say that, as our intercessor is available all the time...even in heavy traffic.

There are many verses about how God protects us:
Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Philippians 3:14
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
1 John 5:18
We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

The words "practice of" are not in the KJV of the bible.
Do fig seeds ever bring forth grapes ?
How then can God's seed ever bring forth lies and theft ?

The NASB says:
NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRACTICES SIN.

Get a better version of the KJV of the bible.
Fig seeds never bring forth grape vines.

There's a difference between committing a sin,
and living in sin, or, making a practice of sin.

They both illustrate from whom one is born.

There can be carnal person in Christ.
When someone comes to believe, their life could change instantaneously, or it could take some time.
God works as He wills in us. Our character has something to do with how fast we become transformed.
We may become positionally sanctified in Christ, but we also must become literally sanctified - put aside for God's use. This may not happen right away. To say so would probably cause discomfort to some new Christians - feeling that they cannot be good enough for God. They could be so discouraged as to give up.

Plenty of so-called believers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Their actions will illustrate from whom they are born.

It states THOSE WHO DO these things.....present tense.
Do you know any believer that murders, practices witchcraft, etc.
I don't.

Me neither.
I also don't know any believers who commit adultery, steal, or tell lies.

Those who DO these things will not enter the Kingdom of God.
Neither the one in heaven or the one on earth.

Agreed.
They do, however, have the Advocate we used in our past to help us flee from sin.

I agree with you.
Once repents one time and after that it's HOLY sorrow, GODLY sorrow, that one feels for having sin - the sin is confessed and the path toward God continues.
The word repentance is not used correctly...it's used to mean: feel sorry for.

"After that"?
If one has repented of sin, they don't sin anymore.
That version of repentance would better be called "pause" from sin.

Of course a sin is not of God.
It's caused by man, with all his fragilities that he has.
God knows who is doing their best and who is not.

Thank God for allowing us to be new creatures.
Creatures better than the mere men we once were.

I believe all on this thread have repented.
It's not for us to say.

Isn't it for us to know ?
If one sins, they have not repented of sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Let me ask you a few questions.

Hi ebh".
Fire away...

Do you struggle with sin or temptation?

The temptations never seem to stop.
I have invented games to play that take my mind off of temptation.
A to Z, using any number of subjects.
Name all the biblical figures, (or breeds of dog, countries on earth, flowers, fish,), you can remember that start with the letter A.
After you finish with A, go on to B.
The temptation will be gone before you hit B. LOL

How do you maintain your sinless perfection?

Prayer, bible reading, study, keeping away from the things that once tripped me up, avoiding the people who have my worst in mind.
Other things too.
I talk to God all day long.

How do us Christians on this site (that have sin and struggle with sin), how can we love the Lord and call Him Lord?

We have an Advocate with the Father who will get us to a good situation, or away from the things that try to bind us.
Keep asking God for help, and He will answer.
Have faith !

Unbelievers are at odd with the true and living God of the Bible. They hate God, this is Biblical.

I know.

How can I love the written word of God so much that I need it to feed on and live.

Keep reading and manifesting the words in daily life !
Don't read a chapter of Romans, or any other book, and then go do the things we were warned against.
I started a binder of topics.
It started with cussing, something I didn't seem to be able to quit.
I hand printed every verse I could find relative to cussing, swearing, foul mouth, etc.
Pretty soon, the verses started to come to my mind instead of the 4 letter words, when I cracked my head on the lift or the under-car sharp thingy.
I have 27 topics now.
Just today, because of the thread about sinlessness being a heresy. I started a topic of Paul's exhortations to be perfect.
It is 9 pages long.

Why does the Lord answer my deepest prayers, why has He blessed me spiritually?

He loves you !

These things I have listed are not something the unregenerate do.
Please answer truthfully.

He has brought you here while I was here.
Rejoice !

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the anointing of the spirit sanctifies us.

In spite of the verse from Hebrews 10 that I supplied, you are going to say that ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In spite of the verse from Hebrews 10 that I supplied, you are going to say that ?

Yes, because the verses you quote are referring to the insufficiency of animal sacrifice and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and 10:29 in particular is about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, you know, the unforgivable sin. Blaspheming against Christ can be forgiven, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit cannot.

 

[Runningman]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children.

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them.:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

John certainly seems to consider himself and all believers as sinners that need to confess their sins continually before God. He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we need to continually confess and why we have an advocate with the Father.


Do you agree that context is important?

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

John explicitly says that believers commit sin. We should also consider what he says in chapter 3:

Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin, and repeats that in chapter 5. So, who John is speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10? Those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin; they cannot be believers. Yet he makes the case that believers do sin. It's just that their lives are not characterized by it--they confess their sins because they have an advocate before the Father.

Totally agreed that people can and do sin, but not constantly and they can stop. It's just a matter of choice. No matter how strong the temptation is (to sin) God will not allow people to be tempted beyond what they are able. It follows that people can stop sinning even if it is difficult for them.

1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

 

[Free]

Totally agreed that people can and do sin, but not constantly and they can stop. It's just a matter of choice. No matter how strong the temptation is (to sin) God will not allow people to be tempted beyond what they are able. It follows that people can stop sinning even if it is difficult for them.

1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

We will never reach sinless perfection in this life. That is not a biblical idea. We always sin, every day, even in ways we don't often realize; there often isn't some obvious temptation. We should be sinning less and less if we're growing in sanctification.

 

[donadams]

See if I got this right;

We are called to sacrifice and suffering?

Suffering is the way to avoid sin?

We must suffer with Christ to be glorified?

Thanks

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, because the verses you quote are referring to the insufficiency of animal sacrifice and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and 10:29 in particular is about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, you know, the unforgivable sin. Blaspheming against Christ can be forgiven, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit cannot.

I don't know what you are reading, but it isn't Heb 10:29.
I will reprint Heb 10:10, 14.
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
I will add this..."Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." (Heb 13:12)

 

[Hopeful 2]

We will never reach sinless perfection in this life. That is not a biblical idea. We always sin, every day, even in ways we don't often realize; there often isn't some obvious temptation. We should be sinning less and less if we're growing in sanctification.

If we can "slow down" our sinning, we can quit it all together.
With the help of the Holy Ghost, it is a done deal.

 

[Tenchi]

All you showed was that Paul got on the cases of the posers.

You can lead a horse to water...

I really think it odd that you think there is sin in Christ.

Strawman.

No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

John is speaking to the church, about both those who walk in darkness-sin, and those who walk in the light-God.
Two different kinds of men.

This isn't what John actually wrote, though. You see? You must twist so much of God's word in order to make it conform to your false idea!

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
There aren't two persons in view here only two states or conditions of being within which one person may stand relative to God. This is made clear by John using "we," not "us and them," indicating that he, as well as his readers, could be self-deceived, claiming to be without sin and thus becoming a liar. Though John was an apostle, he did not exclude himself from the possibility he described in the passage above. Clearly, then, John did not think as you do, Hopeful 2, that he was sinlessly perfect, incapable of self-deception and never requiring confession of sin.

You sure read a lot into it that isn't there.

Merely saying so doesn't make it so. Show that what you assert here is so; demonstrate that I've read more into John's words than are there. You haven't, and so I'm free to dismiss your remark here as the baseless opinion that it is.

The "any man" are they who have not yet prevailed upon the Advocate to wash away their sins with His blood.

Nope. As I showed, John included himself in his remarks about "anyone who sins" having an Advocate with God in Jesus Christ:

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Also, who is the "anyone" in view here? Obviously, "my little children." Who are John's "little children"? Just any old person who might happen to read his letter? No, they are fellow born-again believers - likely those for whom John was a spiritual "parent," who had been brought to faith in Christ by John and were being schooled by him in how to walk well with God. So, no "anyone" does not refer at all to those you want to assert falsely that it does.

The clean have an Advocate for the unclean to use.

Again, this isn't what John wrote; it's another twist of Scripture that you've had to make in order to hold your erroneous view. See above.

Again you are reading things into the verse that are not there.

Just asserting this doesn't make it true. An assertion, by itself, is not an argument. I have offered an explication of the passage which your mere assertion here does nothing to rebut.

You aren't one of those who thinks they can get grapes from a fig tree, are you ?

Are you?

Why than, do you suppose God's can ever bring forth liars and thieves ?

Strawman.

Just another admonission, so the faithful don't return to perdition.

Nope. See my last post.

You misread it.
When He comes we shall see Him being just as He is.

Nope. See my last post.

Christ has a glorified body, and so will we when He comes.

Where does John say anything about Christ's glorified body in the verse or surrounding context? Nowhere.

I Cor 13:12..."And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Looks more like he is giving us an example in order to emphasize the value of charity.

Deflection. And a false dichotomy.

I find myself perfectly able to emulate Him in His daily life on earth.

Baloney. You see through a glass darkly like everyone else and so have no clear idea of the perfections of Christ - which is in no small part why you so boldly claim to perfect emulation of him. Ironic, that.

Thank God for His disciples' exhortations, and admonissions to keep us on track !

God's Spirit keeps us on track.

Men can commit sin, but Christians can't.
If they do commit sin, they are of a different father.
The "brothers" in question are either familial or national in nature.
Not brothers in Christ.

Nope. See my last post.

Nothing you assert here has any ground in John's words, nor have you actually rebutted in any way what I pointed out from the passage. This is just a dismissive and deflective - and thus useless - reply.

Man can sin, but not Christians who have crucified the flesh with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Nope. See my last post.

Your defense of sin was in depth and thorough.

Strawman.

It is a pity you see it that way.
I don't.
In Christ there is no in.
I cannot have sin on me and be in Christ.

Nope. See my last post.

Silk shirts on swine is somewhat befitting of your POV.

Strawman - and obnoxious to boot.

Believers will grow in grace and knowledge, but not in knowledge of ways to keep committing sin.

A person cannot be perfectly sinless and be ignorant and lacking in grace, too. Obviously.

No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

Again, you are reading things into it to bolster your bias towards sinfulness.

Your merely saying so doesn't make it so. Got anything more than your mere say-so, Strawmen, non sequiturs and twists of Scripture?

The only thing you seem to be unaware of is what are the characteristics of the born again.

Again, says you. But, once more, merely asserting something is so doesn't make it so.

Sinners are not reborn of God's seed.

Already answered.

As God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, your point is moot.
No man reborn of God' seed commits sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

And as I've shown from Scripture, you're quite wrong in this glaring non sequitur.

If we are living in the Spirit, we will walk in the Spirit.

Nope. This isn't at all what Paul actually wrote. This is just another of the many twists you're having to make to God's word in order to hold your mistaken view.

Paul isn't going to alienate those who need correction.

Facile and deflective.

With a real repentance, they won't sin.

More deflective, facile words.

You only think you have,

Yes, I do think I have. And that's because of all that I laid out from God's word in various posts in this thread. So far, nothing you've offered in reply gets anywhere close to rebutting what I've pointed out.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You can lead a horse to water...



Strawman.



Yes, it is.



This isn't what John actually wrote, though. You see? You must twist so much of God's word in order to make it conform to your false idea!

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
There aren't two persons in view here only two states or conditions of being within which one person may stand relative to God. This is made clear by John using "we," not "us and them," indicating that he, as well as his readers, could be self-deceived, claiming to be without sin and thus becoming a liar. Though John was an apostle, he did not exclude himself from the possibility he described in the passage above. Clearly, then, John did not think as you do, Hopeful 2, that he was sinlessly perfect, incapable of self-deception and never requiring confession of sin.



Merely saying so doesn't make it so. Show that what you assert here is so; demonstrate that I've read more into John's words than are there. You haven't, and so I'm free to dismiss your remark here as the baseless opinion that it is.



Nope. As I showed, John included himself in his remarks about "anyone who sins" having an Advocate with God in Jesus Christ:

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Also, who is the "anyone" in view here? Obviously, "my little children." Who are John's "little children"? Just any old person who might happen to read his letter? No, they are fellow born-again believers - likely those for whom John was a spiritual "parent," who had been brought to faith in Christ by John and were being schooled by him in how to walk well with God. So, no "anyone" does not refer at all to those you want to assert falsely that it does.



Again, this isn't what John wrote; it's another twist of Scripture that you've had to make in order to hold your erroneous view. See above.



Just asserting this doesn't make it true. An assertion, by itself, is not an argument. I have offered an explication of the passage which your mere assertion here does nothing to rebut.



Are you?



Strawman.



Nope. See my last post.



Nope. See my last post.



Where does John say anything about Christ's glorified body in the verse or surrounding context? Nowhere.



Deflection. And a false dichotomy.



Baloney. You see through a glass darkly like everyone else and so have no clear idea of the perfections of Christ - which is in no small part why you so boldly claim to perfect emulation of him. Ironic, that.



God's Spirit keeps us on track.



Nope. See my last post.

Nothing you assert here has any ground in John's words, nor have you actually rebutted in any way what I pointed out from the passage. This is just a dismissive and deflective - and thus useless - reply.



Nope. See my last post.



Strawman.



Nope. See my last post.



Strawman - and obnoxious to boot.



A person cannot be perfectly sinless and be ignorant and lacking in grace, too. Obviously.



Yes, it is.



Your merely saying so doesn't make it so. Got anything more than your mere say-so, Strawmen, non sequiturs and twists of Scripture?



Again, says you. But, once more, merely asserting something is so doesn't make it so.



Already answered.



And as I've shown from Scripture, you're quite wrong in this glaring non sequitur.



Nope. This isn't at all what Paul actually wrote. This is just another of the many twists you're having to make to God's word in order to hold your mistaken view.



Facile and deflective.



More deflective, facile words.



Yes, I do think I have. And that's because of all that I laid out from God's word in various posts in this thread. So far, nothing you've offered in reply gets anywhere close to rebutting what I've pointed out.

As my intent is to show folks that obedience to God is possible and your's is that it is not, the audience will have to choose which path they themselves will walk.
Which path do you suppose God would prefer we choose ?

 

[Tenchi]

As my intent is to show folks that obedience to God is possible and your's is that it is not, the audience will have to choose which path they themselves will walk.
Which path do you suppose God would prefer we choose ?

The path that properly handles His truth without errors of reason and/or subtle manipulations of His truth.

Your way - regardless of intent - is the way into works-salvation, moralism, fear, hypocrisy and pride. It doesn't lead toward God but away from Him. And I think that, as other folks read our exchange, they'll see this pretty plainly. I sure do.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The path that properly handles His truth without errors of reason and/or subtle manipulations of His truth.

I agree.

Your way - regardless of intent - is the way into works-salvation, moralism, fear, hypocrisy and pride. It doesn't lead toward God but away from Him. And I think that, as other folks read our exchange, they'll see this pretty plainly. I sure do.

If the knowledge that we CAN submit to God perfectly doesn't lead towards God, what will ?

 

[GodsGrace]

As my intent is to show folks that obedience to God is possible and your's is that it is not, the audience will have to choose which path they themselves will walk.
Which path do you suppose God would prefer we choose ?

What does John 20: 23 mean to you?
20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


Why would Jesus give authority to the Apostles to forgive sins if He knew persons would never sin again after becoming born again as in John 3:5?

 

[GodsGrace]

As my intent is to show folks that obedience to God is possible and your's is that it is not, the audience will have to choose which path they themselves will walk.
Which path do you suppose God would prefer we choose ?

We've spoken about this Hopeful.
The above is not true.
You intend to show folks that obedience is possible
and you say that Tenchi 's and other members is to show that obedience is not possible.

I've said this before that what you post believing you're doing well will actually discourage many new Christians because you're setting a goal that is not attainable.

No one on this thread is stating that we MUST sin ....
What we're saying is that we will not wish to sin, but sometimes we will.
Saying that you never sin IS A SIN...it is the sin of pride.
Pride and ego lead to many sins.
Boasting that one never sins is
1. a lie as shown in scripture.
2. a sin because of the lie and because of the proudfull statement.

If I said I know scripture more than anyone, that would be a prideful statement and a sin.
This is what you're, in effect, doing.

Jesus said the path is narrow.
Narrow.
But it is still walkable. There's room for a falling.

There's a difference between a sin. and living a life of sin.
This is what you don't seem to be able to understand.
So many verses given to you that are ignored.
So what's the use of reading the bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

The path that properly handles His truth without errors of reason and/or subtle manipulations of His truth.

Your way - regardless of intent - is the way into works-salvation, moralism, fear, hypocrisy and pride. It doesn't lead toward God but away from Him. And I think that, as other folks read our exchange, they'll see this pretty plainly. I sure do.

The CC seems to be known for works salvation,
and even THAT CHURCH believes man will sin -

 

[Free]

If we can "slow down" our sinning, we can quit it all together.
With the help of the Holy Ghost, it is a done deal.

And yet Scripture never says we can become sinless in this life. If we could, it means we could become perfect, but not even Paul made that claim:

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (ESV)