The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Hopeful 2]

By grieving the Holy Spirit. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31-32.

Jesus wasn't talking to reborn men.

He didn't plead for sinless perfection, you made that up.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1)
He wasn't pleading for "pretty good"

Ask yourself what sacrifice means. At least offering is certainly not over.

All we do to glorify God, or Jesus Christ, could be considered a sacrifice.
I look at it as a privilege.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus wasn't talking to reborn men.

God chastises his own, exclusively the reborn.

He wasn't pleading for "pretty good"

No, he was pleading for continuous daily sacrifice like it was in the Jerusalem temple, as opposed to your OSAS that requires nothing from ourselves.

All we do to glorify God, or Jesus Christ, could be considered a sacrifice.
I look at it as a privilege.

If so, then drop the heresy of sinless perfection, be sanctifies by His truth. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (Jn. 17:17)

 

[Runningman]

Well, again, the Bible doesn't say we will or even can stop sinning in this life. So, telling someone "they can stop sinning" is misleading and could even lead them to despair, thinking they're a bad Christian or not saved because they are struggling with sin.

They might be a bad Christian, not be saved, or lose their salvation. Hence the point of telling them to not sin.

The list of sins of commission and omission is long. I think there are some that many Christians don't even think about and realize they are committing.

Sin is simply a transgression of God's law. Many of the sins people believe in are never actually codified in the law. The law that is still in effect is the 10 Commandments.

No idolatry; God is always first in everything? No failing to love God completely at all times? No "little white lies"? No worry? No foolish talk or coarse joking? No grumbling? No selfishness; absolutely everything is done for the benefit of others and the glory of God? You always work with the utmost integrity?

I am not saying I have never done or don't do some of those things, but I am doing none of them right now.

Be careful of the deceitfulness of sin. John warns against claiming at any point that we have no sin (1 John 1:8).

Immediately before that John said we could be sinless by "walking in the light" in order to access the sacrifice of the blood of Christ. It doesn't mean that we have never sinned, but that sin isn't being applied to us, i.e., forgiven. The idea is if one isn't even trying to avoid sin, though they may fail, then they are not walking in the light and are not forgiven.

It isn't instant, but gradually, step by step, becoming Christlike is attainable. Jesus is the model for what is possible for a human being anointed by God's Holy Spirit.

Eph 4
11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head.

 

[GodsGrace]

God chastises his own, exclusively the reborn.

No, he was pleading for continuous daily sacrifice like it was in the Jerusalem temple, as opposed to your OSAS that requires nothing from ourselves.

If so, then drop the heresy of sinless perfection, be sanctifies by His truth. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (Jn. 17:17)

Hi Carry
I believe @Hopeful2 is correct in post 161.
Especially what Romans 12 means in presenting our very selves to God.
At least, that has always been my understanding.
Care to reread it?

 

[Tenchi]

Does anyone love God ?

Yes. But many Christians resort to lesser motives for obeying God - motives He says clearly in His word He does not accept: fear, guilt, obligation, self-righteousness, etc.

Great, I think you might be merging onto the road I travel.

No, it's only that we read the same Bible (though only one of us is handling it well).

Perhaps for the benefit of those who have been hoodwinked into thinking they can continue to offend God and it won't matter ?

Or, as God's word actually indicates, because born-again believers sin and yet are still born-again believers.

Conversion comes with duties.

It comes with the life of the Spirit who fills those who walk in submission to him each day with all that he is. Out of his life and work in the believer, joyful obedience naturally arises and the believer is transformed. No need to appeal to a sense of duty which God rejects.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi Carry
I believe @Hopeful2 is correct in post 161.
Especially what Romans 12 means in presenting our very selves to God.
At least, that has always been my understanding.
Care to reread it?

Correct about what? In Rom. 12:1 Paul called for reasonable service, not any behavior modification; and then transformation by renewing of mind in 12:2, not sinless perfection. In fact, as soon as you begin to toy with the illusion that you can be "perfectly sinless" like Jesus, you're guilty of pride, the sin of all sins that threw Satan out of heaven.

 

[Hopeful 2]

God chastises his own, exclusively the reborn.

Nobody was reborn in the OT.
It wasn't until we could be raised with Christ, (after our water baptism into Him and His death...Rom 6:3-4), to walk in newness of life, that rebirth happened .

No, he was pleading for continuous daily sacrifice like it was in the Jerusalem temple, as opposed to your OSAS that requires nothing from ourselves.

Paul beseeched them to be holy and acceptable to God.
Liars and thieves can't accomplish that.
Only the righteous can.
"My" OSAS ?
Sounds like a new thread.
My opinion of "saved" is that it will occur at the last day's judgement.
Which, of course is the only OSAS, that is possible.

If so, then drop the heresy of sinless perfection, be sanctifies by His truth. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (Jn. 17:17)

Perfectly sinless/righteousness is a characteristic of "sanctified".

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes. But many Christians resort to lesser motives for obeying God - motives He says clearly in His word He does not accept: fear, guilt, obligation, self-righteousness, etc.

I'ld like to see some of the verses you use to illustrate that.
Some do love God for all the right reasons.
For allowing us access to His Son and to the ways of righteousness and freedom from sinfulness.
I will serve God forever just for the freedom from crack cocaine and alcoholism.
A laundry list of other things too.

No, it's only that we read the same Bible (though only one of us is handling it well).

If by well you mean by the fruits of our labors, I can agree.

Or, as God's word actually indicates, because born-again believers sin and yet are still born-again believers.

Show me where God says His children keep offending Him after their conversion.

It comes with the life of the Spirit who fills those who walk in submission to him each day with all that he is. Out of his life and work in the believer, joyful obedience naturally arises and the believer is transformed.

Wit that answer, it really surprises me that you can keep advocating for sinfulness .

No need to appeal to a sense of duty which God rejects.

Show me the scripture.
Or show me any scripture that says we owe God nothing.

Paul says..."It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." (Rom 15:27)
Duty is indeed part of the Christian's subjection to God.

 

[Tenchi]

I'ld like to see some of the verses you use to illustrate that.

I need only two, which I already gave to you.

Show me where God says His children keep offending Him after their conversion.

LOL! I have done many times now in this very thread. Posting them again will clearly not be of any help to you. There is no man so blind as he who will not see.

Wit that answer, it really surprises me that you can keep advocating for sinfulness .

Strawman. Just like before.

Or show me any scripture that says we owe God nothing.

??? Where have I said such a thing? Nowhere.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I need only two, which I already gave to you.

Why not show them again ?

LOL! I have done many times now in this very thread. Posting them again will clearly not be of any help to you. There is no man so blind as he who will not see.

Why not show them again ?

??? Where have I said such a thing? Nowhere.

You posted..."No need to appeal to a sense of duty which God rejects."
The converted have a duty to God and to His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct about what? In Rom. 12:1 Paul called for reasonable service, not any behavior modification; and then transformation by renewing of mind in 12:2, not sinless perfection. In fact, as soon as you begin to toy with the illusion that you can be "perfectly sinless" like Jesus, you're guilty of pride, the sin of all sins that threw Satan out of heaven.

Right. And I agree with you.
Here's what I mean...

In Post 162 YOU said: Regarding Romans 12:1
No, he was pleading for continuous daily sacrifice like it was in the Jerusalem temple, as opposed to your OSAS that requires nothing from ourselves.

And @Hopeful2 said:
All we do to glorify God, or Jesus Christ, could be considered a sacrifice.
I look at it as a privilege.

What I'm saying is that Hopeful2 understands Romans 12:1

I've never read anywhere that it means to make a daily sacrifice as in the days of the temple. I'm not even sure what you mean by this.

Romans 12:1 is saying that we are not to conform ourselves to our culture.
We are to offer everything we do in the name of God to Him as our service.
Our eyes, our hands, our tongue - everything in our body is to be offered up.
All these parts are to be righteous before God. Everything we do is for God...
work, sleep, pray, cook, care for a sick person - everything.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is because the sins from their pasts need to be forgiven.
It is done by water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

I don't understand why you cited John 3:5. ?

I mentioned John 3:5 because some believe the water is from the first physical birth and some believe it's baptismal water. That would make baptismal water be necessary for salvation -- which, actually, even the other writers said it is.

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
Why if it's baptism that forgives sins?

This refers again to John 20:23.
Have you studied early church history? It sounds like you have.
At that time persons were baptized to forgive all their prior sins.
It was believed that they would not sin anymore after this (as you believe).
But a problem existed when it was realized that persons were still sinning even
after having been baptized.

This is why the CC had to figure out a way to forgive the sins that were committed AFTER
baptism. Some waited to be on their deathbed to be baptized for this very reason.

Not the Apostolic Fathers nor the Early Church Fathers believed in sinless perfection.


SINLESSNESSAll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Rom. 3:23.fjesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15.[Jesus] committed no sin, nor was guile found in Hismouth. 1 Pet. 2:22.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.In Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5.Christ alone is sinless. However, as far as weare able, let us try to sin as little as possible.Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

2.210.Christ welcomes the repentance of the sinner,for He loves the repentance that follows sins.For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all.But to return [to God] after sinning is characteristic not of any man, but only of a man ofworth. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

2.293.I know of no one among men who is perfectin all things at once, as long as he is still human.. . . The only exception is He alone who clothedHimself with humanity for us. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.433.To the Son of God alone was it reserved topersevere to the end without sin. Tertullian (c.197, W),

3.244.The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One, and so He teaches us to beg "to haveour debts remitted us." Tertullian (c. 198, W),

3.684.Now, who is so faultless among men, thatGod could always have him in His choice?Tertullian (c. 201, W),

3.315.In Christ, that same flesh was maintainedwithout sin—which in man was not maintainedwithout sin. Tertullian (c. 210, W),

3.535.God alone is without sin. And the onlyhuman without sin is Christ, since Christ isalso God. Tertullian (c. 210, W),

3.221.I do not inquire as to His own redemption.For, though He was tempted in all things justas we are, He was without sin. His enemiesnever reduced Him to [spiritual] captivity.Origen (c. 228, E),

9.318.If by the phrase, "those who were withoutsin," [the pagan critic Celsus] means those whohave never at any time sinned, .. . we reply thatit is impossible for a human to be without sin inthat manner. In saying this, we except, ofcourse, the man understood to be in ChristJesus, who did not sin. Origen (c. 248, E),

4.489.[Celsus] alleges . . . that "they who are without sin are partakers of a better life." . . . [ORIGEN'S REPLY:] Of those who were without sinfrom the beginning of their lives, there cannotpossibly be any. Even those who are so aftertheir conversion are found to be few in number—being those who have become such aftergiving their allegiance to the saving Word.Origen (c. 248, E),

4.492.Lest anyone should flatter himself that he isinnocent—and should more deeply perish byexalting himself—he is instructed and taughtthat he sins daily. For he is told to pray daily forhis sins. Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.453.Let no one flatter himself with the notion of apure and immaculate heart. Let no one dependon his own innocence. Let no one think thatthe medicine does not need to be applied to his...

 

[GodsGrace]

They insure that man will keep committing sin by hiding the fact that one, true, repentance from sin would end their wickedness.

answered in other post.

 

[electedbyHim]

I mentioned John 3:5 because some believe the water is from the first physical birth and some believe it's baptismal water. That would make baptismal water be necessary for salvation -- which, actually, even the other writers said it is.

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
Why if it's baptism that forgives sins?

This refers again to John 20:23.
Have you studied early church history? It sounds like you have.
At that time persons were baptized to forgive all their prior sins.
It was believed that they would not sin anymore after this (as you believe).
But a problem existed when it was realized that persons were still sinning even
after having been baptized.

This is why the CC had to figure out a way to forgive the sins that were committed AFTER
baptism. Some waited to be on their deathbed to be baptized for this very reason.

Not the Apostolic Fathers nor the Early Church Fathers believed in sinless perfection.


SINLESSNESSAll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Rom. 3:23.fjesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15.[Jesus] committed no sin, nor was guile found in Hismouth. 1 Pet. 2:22.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.In Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5.Christ alone is sinless. However, as far as weare able, let us try to sin as little as possible.Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

2.210.Christ welcomes the repentance of the sinner,for He loves the repentance that follows sins.For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all.But to return [to God] after sinning is characteristic not of any man, but only of a man ofworth. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

2.293.I know of no one among men who is perfectin all things at once, as long as he is still human.. . . The only exception is He alone who clothedHimself with humanity for us. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.433.To the Son of God alone was it reserved topersevere to the end without sin. Tertullian (c.197, W),

3.244.The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One, and so He teaches us to beg "to haveour debts remitted us." Tertullian (c. 198, W),

3.684.Now, who is so faultless among men, thatGod could always have him in His choice?Tertullian (c. 201, W),

3.315.In Christ, that same flesh was maintainedwithout sin—which in man was not maintainedwithout sin. Tertullian (c. 210, W),

3.535.God alone is without sin. And the onlyhuman without sin is Christ, since Christ isalso God. Tertullian (c. 210, W),

3.221.I do not inquire as to His own redemption.For, though He was tempted in all things justas we are, He was without sin. His enemiesnever reduced Him to [spiritual] captivity.Origen (c. 228, E),

9.318.If by the phrase, "those who were withoutsin," [the pagan critic Celsus] means those whohave never at any time sinned, .. . we reply thatit is impossible for a human to be without sin inthat manner. In saying this, we except, ofcourse, the man understood to be in ChristJesus, who did not sin. Origen (c. 248, E),

4.489.[Celsus] alleges . . . that "they who are without sin are partakers of a better life." . . . [ORIGEN'S REPLY:] Of those who were without sinfrom the beginning of their lives, there cannotpossibly be any. Even those who are so aftertheir conversion are found to be few in number—being those who have become such aftergiving their allegiance to the saving Word.Origen (c. 248, E),

4.492.Lest anyone should flatter himself that he isinnocent—and should more deeply perish byexalting himself—he is instructed and taughtthat he sins daily. For he is told to pray daily forhis sins. Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.453.Let no one flatter himself with the notion of apure and immaculate heart. Let no one dependon his own innocence. Let no one think thatthe medicine does not need to be applied to his...

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.

This verse does not give authority to Christians to forgive sins. Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son, if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel. The believer, with certainty, can also tell those who do not respond to the message of God's forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins, as a result, are not forgiven.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I've never read anywhere that it means to make a daily sacrifice as in the days of the temple. I'm not even sure what you mean by this.

What I meant is that such a sacrifice has to be made daily, it has to be consistent, it’s not a one and done deal. The word “daily” is not in the verse, but if you do a little research on the cultural context, you would know that a morning and an evening sacrifice was offered at the temple everyday.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nobody was reborn in the OT.
It wasn't until we could be raised with Christ, (after our water baptism into Him and His death...Rom 6:3-4), to walk in newness of life, that rebirth happened .

So? “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord. Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son he receives.” This is a quote from Prov. 3-11-12, that’s OT. The Father chastens his own.

 

[electedbyHim]

So? “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord. Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son he receives.” This is a quote from Prov. 3-11-12, that’s OT. The Father chastens his own.

This is correct.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul beseeched them to be holy and acceptable to God.
Liars and thieves can't accomplish that.
Only the righteous can.
"My" OSAS ?
Sounds like a new thread.
My opinion of "saved" is that it will occur at the last day's judgement.
Which, of course is the only OSAS, that is possible.

Then how can you tell the righteous from the unrighteous and the self-righteous? “There’s none righteous, no, not one.”

Perfectly sinless/righteousness is a characteristic of "sanctified".

I said it above that if you believe you can be perfectly sinless/righteous in this life, you’re already sinful and self-righteous, that’s called Pride, the sin of all sins that cast Satan out of heaven.

 

[electedbyHim]

Then how can you tell the righteous from the unrighteous and the self-righteous? “There’s none righteous, no, not one.”

I said it above that if you believe you can be perfectly sinless/righteous in this life, you’re already sinful and self-righteous, that’s called Pride, the sin of all sins that cast Satan out of heaven.

I will agree that is pride. Why even follow God's word, there is no need for sanctification at that point.

To say you are sinless is to put yourself on the same level as the Lord.

That is just pure sinfulness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I mentioned John 3:5 because some believe the water is from the first physical birth and some believe it's baptismal water. That would make baptismal water be necessary for salvation -- which, actually, even the other writers said it is.

I don't remember us talking about rebirth.

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
Why if it's baptism that forgives sins?

He gave them baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

This refers again to John 20:23.

OK, I see where you are coming from now.
At the time those words were spoken, disciples were still not able to walk in the Spirit. So, having to walk in the flesh, they would still see disciples committing sins.
That changed when men could be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND, into Christ and into His death so their old fleshly oriented man could be destroyed. (Rom 6:3-7)

Have you studied early church history? It sounds like you have.
At that time persons were baptized to forgive all their prior sins.
It was believed that they would not sin anymore after this (as you believe).
But a problem existed when it was realized that persons were still sinning even
after having been baptized.

Too bad they couldn't put two and two together and see that the sinners were just not repenting.

This is why the CC had to figure out a way to forgive the sins that were committed AFTER
baptism. Some waited to be on their deathbed to be baptized for this very reason.

Thus accommodating all the unrepentant who wanted to play Christian.

Not the Apostolic Fathers nor the Early Church Fathers believed in sinless perfection.

I disagree, as I don't consider catholics to be "the early church".

SINLESSNESS All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Rom. 3:23.fjesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15.[Jesus] committed no sin, nor was guile found in Hismouth. 1 Pet. 2:22.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.In Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5.Christ alone is sinless. However, as far as we are able, let us try to sin as little as possible. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

Clement used verses from the OT about men walking in the flesh to accommodate men walking in the flesh after walking in the Spirit was made available by Jesus Christ.

2.210.Christ welcomes the repentance of the sinner, for He loves the repentance that follows sins. For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all. But to return [to God] after sinning is characteristic not of any man, but only of a man of worth. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E),

I wish he had put his foot down and declared every sinner a son of satan.
The way to tell if a repentance from sin is real is to no further sin.

2.293.I know of no one among men who is perfectin all things at once, as long as he is still human.. . . The only exception is He alone who clothedHimself with humanity for us. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.433.To the Son of God alone was it reserved topersevere to the end without sin. Tertullian (c.197, W),

"Still human".
The writer had no conception of how different the "new creature" is from a mere human.
Paul said, after illustrating how the old man is destroyed, ..."For he that is dead is freed from sin.", and "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.", and, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:7,18. 22)
Turtullian just ignored Romans 6.

3.244.The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One, and so He teaches us to beg "to haveour debts remitted us." Tertullian (c. 198, W),
3.684.Now, who is so faultless among men, thatGod could always have him in His choice?Tertullian (c. 201, W),
3.315.In Christ, that same flesh was maintainedwithout sin—which in man was not maintainedwithout sin. Tertullian (c. 210, W),
3.535.God alone is without sin. And the onlyhuman without sin is Christ, since Christ isalso God. Tertullian (c. 210, W),
3.221.I do not inquire as to His own redemption.For, though He was tempted in all things justas we are, He was without sin. His enemiesnever reduced Him to [spiritual] captivity.Origen (c. 228, E),
9.318.If by the phrase, "those who were withoutsin," [the pagan critic Celsus] means those whohave never at any time sinned, .. . we reply thatit is impossible for a human to be without sin inthat manner. In saying this, we except, ofcourse, the man understood to be in ChristJesus, who did not sin. Origen (c. 248, E),
4.489.[Celsus] alleges . . . that "they who are without sin are partakers of a better life." . . . [ORIGEN'S REPLY:] Of those who were without sinfrom the beginning of their lives, there cannotpossibly be any. Even those who are so aftertheir conversion are found to be few in number—being those who have become such aftergiving their allegiance to the saving Word.Origen (c. 248, E),
4.492.Lest anyone should flatter himself that he isinnocent—and should more deeply perish byexalting himself—he is instructed and taughtthat he sins daily. For he is told to pray daily forhis sins. Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.453.Let no one flatter himself with the notion of apure and immaculate heart. Let no one dependon his own innocence. Let no one think thatthe medicine does not need to be applied to his...

I'll stick to what men filled with the Holy Ghost wrote, thank you.