The Law and Grace

[JLB]

Please know that I'm not in disagreement here, but I would like to parse this out because there is always another level.
At the time of Paul's writing, there were numerous "laws" and covenants and the Law of Moses was just one of them.
Here are three main biblical laws.
1. Noahide Laws
2. Sinia Laws
3. Law of Moses

Generally speaking, the Noahide laws are virtually unknown, and the Sinia Laws are generally clumped in with the Mosiac laws.

The Noahide Laws are the seven laws that all mankind were subject to after the flood and are associated with the universal covenant God made and set a reminder with the rainbow. This covenant is still in effect and has not been abolished. If it were, I believe we would no longer see the rainbow.

The Sinia laws are the laws God gave to Israel at Mt. Sinia and is associated with the Sinia Covenant which the Jews of that day willingly accepted. I believe it is important to note that gentiles where never under that covenant and as a result, were never subject to the laws with their associated ordinances.

The Law of Moses would include the Laws Moses himself imposed on the Israelites and are found in Deuteronomy. These Laws of Moses were combined with God's laws given at Mt. Sinai and complete the 613 laws. One law in particular which came from Moses, and not God was divorce.

NIV Matthew 9:8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Anyway JLB, I'm just yabberiing accademics lol. Hope it brought some value to somebody.

It’s good for us to see the continuity of God’s “moral” and righteous laws since Noah.

In no way am I implying that the commandments are not for the Church to obey, rather quite the opposite.


I do want people to understand however, the disconnect between the law of Moses and the New Covenant.

The Foundational Covenant is the Abrahamic Covenant that was made between the Lord Jesus (before He became flesh) and Abraham.

Later, 430 years, the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, UNTIL the Seed should come.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


By saying “until” the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.



We as the people of God must understand that the laws and commandments of God’s kingdom are eternal.


The laws and commandments contained in ordinances of the law of Moses were always temporary.


Ordinances such as food laws, Sabbath laws, feast days, ceremonial washings, animal sacrifices as well as Temple mandates were all added to the Abrahamic Covenant and were abolished at the cross, at the inauguration of the New Covenant (Renewed Abrahamic Covenant).



JLB

 

[jaybo]

I'm considering leaving this discussion as it doesn't seem to address a simple fact: "the law" -- any law -- is external. The Holy Spirit is internal. John 16:13a is the best summary: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." Since we have been given the Holy Spirit to be our (infallible) guide, there is no need for any external rules.

 

[JLB]

I'm considering leaving this discussion as it doesn't seem to address a simple fact: "the law" -- any law -- is external. The Holy Spirit is internal. John 16:13a is the best summary: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." Since we have been given the Holy Spirit to be our (infallible) guide, there is no need for any external rules.

Please share the scripture that teaches us that law is external.


Here are some New Testament scriptures that teach us we are to obey His commandments, which are expressions of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:3-5


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2









JLB

 

[stovebolts]

We as the people of God must understand that the laws and commandments of God’s kingdom are eternal.

Amen and well said.
This is something that most often is either misunderstood or ignored in many conversations.

 

[stovebolts]

since we have been given the Holy Spirit to be our (infallible) guide, there is no need for any external rules.

If I ever get pulled over in my Camaro, I’ll let the officer know this!

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory

Romans 2:14 kjv
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which Law?

Romans 2:15 kjv
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

John 4:12 kjv
12. Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13. Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Kind of strange talk? Bubbling up. Not exactly historical.

The law placed in our hearts and minds IMHO is not the law written in stone that Moses wrote, but
Ephesians 2:15 kjv
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, somaking peace;

Commandments contained in ordinances. The real true law that was hidden begins to surface in Jew and Gentile alike.

Hearts and minds. The law placed in us by God.

The fulfilled law. The bubbling up law. The where did that come from law. That placed in our hearts and minds.

eddif

To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


​

 

[jaybo]

Please share the scripture that teaches us that law is external.


Here are some New Testament scriptures that teach us we are to obey His commandments, which are expressions of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:3-5


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2

JLB

Perhaps I need to explain more fully... The OT law was given to Moses, written on stone tablets. The NT "law" is written in our hearts. The first is external, the second is internal. The first is law, the second is Spirit.

You can read the OT law in many, many places: the Bible, synagogues and churches, monuments, etc. It is external. But can you read the Holy Spirit similarly? Of course not, because it is internal, written on our hearts. The law directs our behavior by a set of external, written rules; the Holy Spirit directs our behavior from within in all circumstances.

Jeremiah was inspired by God to write "“But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people." Can't you see the clear difference? One is external, written on stone, parchment, paper, etc. The other is internal, "written" on our hearts and minds. Of course, you can look at human brains and hearts with the latest technology and never find God's law, because it is spiritual.

John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." It doesn't say that He will give us a new set of written rules to follow but will guide us into all truth. Can't you understand the difference?

 

[for_his_glory]

Little strange but maybe to the point.

1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Not clear yet

1 Corinthians 9:1 kjv
1. Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2. If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3. Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4. Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5. Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6. Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

The law says not muzzle ox treading out corn.

The context areas?:
Animal husbandry
Plowman
Planter
Good church worker

The concept is a worker is worthy of his hire.

The grace seems to be Paul was not trying to get paid.
In many cases the law says the same thing as the new covenant. The physical law has to be raised from the original physical level to a higher level of importance. Before this was over it was raised from ox to apostle.
The law has to be used lawfully.
1 Timothy 1:8 kjv
8. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

The ox is a clean animal
The ox chews cud
Has split hoofs
The ox has 4 stomachs
All these aspects can be explained as raised in level too.

Ever little aspect of the law can be lifted to a more spiritual level.

That is enough for now,

Mississippi redneck ( agriculture display)

eddif

Here Paul is surrendering all of his own rights to do what he wants keeping himself in subjection to what Christ wants to work through him. Muzzling the ox just means to not silent those who God uses to teach us like the Pastors who are truly anointed to teach us. Pastors need to be paid so they can devote themselves to the Lord full time.

 

[for_his_glory]

The law of Moses was abolished at the cross, because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus our Lord, having been added temporarily to the Covenant until the Seed should come; The Messiah

• The law of Moses created enmity between Jew and Gentile.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

• so as to create in Himself one new man from the two

again


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Ephesians 2:13-14

• having nailed it to the cross.

“it” refers to something very specific… the handwriting of requirements that was against us,



By saying “against us”, Paul is specifically quoting Moses.


“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
Deuteronomy 31:26



Now under the New Covenant (Renewed Abrahamic Covenant) we are subject to the Law of Christ. As Moses was the mediator of that Covenant and the children of Israel were subject to (under) the laws and commandments of the law of Moses, so it is we are subject to (under) the law of Christ and Hs Commandments and Laws.

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


There are many references in the New Testament about keeping His commandments. Keeping His commandments are the way of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


His commandments are written on our heart, and therefore received by faith, unlike the law of Moses.






JLB

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite that Jesus has fulfilled the righteousness of theses laws through His birth, death and resurrection.

Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) within the 613 laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

 

[jaybo]

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite that Jesus has fulfilled the righteousness of theses laws through His birth, death and resurrection.

Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) within the 613 laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

How do we follow the 613 moral laws? What enables us?

 

[for_his_glory]

How do we follow the 613 moral laws? What enables us?

We don't as even the Israelites couldn't follow all of them and that is why the law became a curse as there were no saving provisions in them.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Here is a website where it breaks down all 613 in various categories that might help you understand that we. both Jew and Gentile, being the body of Christ, are still to remain under the moral parts of the 613. What enables us to be obedient to follow the moral laws that I have already posted is that of the greatest law of love.

jewfag.org/613laws

 

[jaybo]

We don't as even the Israelites couldn't follow all of them and that is why the law became a curse as there were no saving provisions in them.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Here is a website where it breaks down all 613 in various categories that might help you understand that we. both Jew and Gentile, being the body of Christ, are still to remain under the moral parts of the 613.

jewfag.org/613laws

When I clicked on the link I got a warning that the site was infected with a virus!

As you know, I am guided by the Holy Spirit (internally) not by external laws. If you want to follow all 613 laws (really?) be my guest.

IMHO, nothing could be clearer on this subject than Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." If Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome, doesn't this apply to us also?

 

[for_his_glory]

When I clicked on the link I got a warning that the site was infected with a virus!

Just type in Judaism101

 

[jaybo]

Just type in Judaism101

I did just that. It directed me to a site that discussed a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah. In other words, this is about contemporary Judaism, not Christianity.

I was born into a Jewish family and Bar Mitzvah at age 13. My parents had a horrible marriage and I prayed many times for them and for myself to cope but got nowhere. So I became an atheist. 24 years later I was healed of asthma in the hospital by Jesus and instantly became a Christian, including speaking in tongues. I joined a Pentecostal church which tried to put me back under the OT law. Thankfully, I left shortly thereafter to join a Charismatic church.

To this day I have remained a sincere, devoted Christian, free from the OT law and the latter-day 613 mitzvot.

 

[for_his_glory]

I did just that. It directed me to a site that discussed a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah. In other words, this is about contemporary Judaism, not Christianity.

I was born into a Jewish family and Bar Mitzvah at age 13. My parents had a horrible marriage and I prayed many times for them and for myself to cope but got nowhere. So I became an atheist. 24 years later I was healed of asthma in the hospital by Jesus and instantly became a Christian, including speaking in tongues. I joined a Pentecostal church which tried to put me back under the OT law. Thankfully, I left shortly thereafter to join a Charismatic church.

To this day I have remained a sincere, devoted Christian, free from the OT law and the latter-day 613 mitzvot.

I never said we as a Jew or Gentile under the new covenant of God's grace are to keep obedience to all 613, but only that of the moral commands within the 613 in how we treat others within the greatest commandment of love. Here once again are the moral laws that are within the 613.

prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.​

 

[jaybo]

I never said we as a Jew or Gentile under the new covenant of God's grace are to keep obedience to all 613, but only that of the moral commands within the 613 in how we treat others within the greatest commandment of love. Here once again are the moral laws that are within the 613.

prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.​

Okay, but how do we keep these laws? The Jews have tried to be righteous and keep "the Law" for thousands of years (never mind how many disagreements over what that means) but what has it gotten them? If you're not in Christ, even if you could keep all the laws, it doesn't mean anything.

 

[JLB]

Perhaps I need to explain more fully... The OT law was given to Moses, written on stone tablets. The NT "law" is written in our hearts.

Amen, and they were not of faith.

 

[JLB]

But can you read the Holy Spirit similarly? Of course not, because it is internal, wr

Yes, the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the New Testament to write New Testament commandments for us to obey.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, but how do we keep these laws? The Jews have tried to be righteous and keep "the Law" for thousands of years (never mind how many disagreements over what that means) but what has it gotten them? If you're not in Christ, even if you could keep all the laws, it doesn't mean anything.

None of us are righteous on own own, but have been justified through faith under a better covenant of God's grace through Christ Jesus. The moral laws are to be kept by all through the greatest commandment of love in how we treat others as we want to be treated.

 

[JLB]

Okay, but how do we keep these laws?

Example:

Commandment: Thou shalt not lie.

They way you keep it: You don’t lie; (tell the truth.)


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8


Please understand that this is written to born again Christians.




JLB