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The Law and Grace

jaybo said:
Okay, but how do we keep these laws? The Jews have tried to be righteous and keep "the Law" for thousands of years (never mind how many disagreements over what that means) but what has it gotten them? If you're not in Christ, even if you could keep all the laws, it doesn't mean anything.
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This is right jaybo.
How to keep these laws is the difference between the Old way and the New way.

Instead of trying to keep them as external laws that must be obeyed....
Like obeying your boss at work...
Now we keep them out of love...
Like obeying a husband/wife because we love them and wish them to be happy.

I think this is it in a nutshell.
I think many misunderstand what is meant by the word FULFILL, in that Jesus fulfilled the Law.
It doesn't mean that He did everything, even everything we're supposed to do, and so that leaves us to need
nothing except faith. This is wrong. Nowhere did Jesus say that only faith is necessary for salvation, and yet this is what many state.

We are not under the Law....that was our boss.
We are under grace.... this is our husband/wife.
 
JLB said:
Example:

Commandment: Thou shalt not lie.

They way you keep it: You don’t lie; (tell the truth.)


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8


Please understand that this is written to born again Christians.




JLB
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Yes, but what jaybo means is HOW do we keep the law?

When I left the Catholic Church (which I now attend at times)many years ago in NY, one of my prime pet peeves was that they always talked about being obedient but never explained how.

I attended a Nazarene Church, which is a holiness church - not an extreme one - and they explained HOW we can obey.

I learned about the power of the Holy Spirit and how we can count of Him for strength.
I learned that God desires us to change from the inside out.
That Jesus died to give us this power.
That our love for Him would keep us from much sin...
and that our life progresses we should be holy (set apart) and used for God's purposes.

I found that just KNOWING all this helped me to understand what I felt and the doubts I had.

Happily, the CC is different these days...but, in general, they have some way to go...
the bible studies, however, are good. -- Not to change the topic....
 
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jaybo said:
I'm considering leaving this discussion as it doesn't seem to address a simple fact: "the law" -- any law -- is external. The Holy Spirit is internal. John 16:13a is the best summary: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." Since we have been given the Holy Spirit to be our (infallible) guide, there is no need for any external rules.
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J,
in another post you also said that we don't need external laws anymore because we have internal laws,,,the Holy Spirit, the laws in our heart.

I brought this up some years ago at bible study.
Seems we need both by the time we got to the end of it.
First of all, we can't depend totally on our conscience UNLESS the conscience has been taught to conform to the Laws of God (Christ, the Moral Law)...and not every conscience has.

Also, we might not know everything about sin...
For instance, having a bad thought about someone, for instance, is not a sin unless we dwell on it and it changes our attitude.

So it's good to know a "list" of things that would displease God...
but, definitely, it's what you call the internal law that keeps us from sinning.

Ex: Some really believe that SSM is Ok because the two really love each other.
God teaches that this is not morally correct.
 
JLB said:
Example:

Commandment: Thou shalt not lie.

They way you keep it: You don’t lie; (tell the truth.)


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8


Please understand that this is written to born again Christians.




JLB
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I am under grace, not under law -- of any kind. OT law, 613 moral laws, etc. Why? Because that's what my Bible says, and it's confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit. Jesus died to free us from the law, not put us under different laws.
 
jaybo said:
I am under grace, not under law -- of any kind. OT law, 613 moral laws, etc. Why? Because that's what my Bible says, and it's confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit. Jesus died to free us from the law, not put us under different laws.
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Then your what the Bible calls lawless.


and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:20-21


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4





JLB
 
jaybo said:
I am under grace, not under law -- of any kind. OT law, 613 moral laws, etc. Why? Because that's what my Bible says, and it's confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit. Jesus died to free us from the law, not put us under different laws.
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So, you think that we no longer are to follow these laws below that are part of the 613 laws? Do you even realize that the greatest commandment of love is also part of the 613?

The laws that were written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite have already been fulfilled in Christ, but yet the moral laws being part of the 613 as I have listed only in part we are to still follow by the greatest commandment of love.

To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).

To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
 
wondering said:
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law,
not the smallest letter or stroke (markings used to write Hebrew).
Matthew 5:17
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Paul said we are not under the Law but are under grace.
Romans 6:14
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Is this a conflict in the New Testament?

1. What did Jesus mean by saying that He came to fulfill the Law?
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Jesus came to tell the do-gooders the actual meaning of the law.
The law is all about the heart and what is taking place within the heart .
As in His example that if you look upon another human being in lust you have committed " Adultery "
And if you are angry at another person you are a " Murderer ".
 
Consecrated Life said:
Jesus came to tell the do-gooders the actual meaning of the law.
The law is all about the heart and what is taking place within the heart .
As in His example that if you look upon another human being in lust you have committed " Adultery "
And if you are angry at another person you are a " Murderer ".
Click to expand...

Nevertheless adultery, lying, idolatry and the like will cause us to end up in the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8
 
JLB said:
Then your what the Bible calls lawless.


and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:20-21


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4





JLB
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I am posting this one last time then dropping out of this thread...


"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. IMHO it's not difficult. Christian have died to the law.

If you want to disbelieve what Scripture clearly says, then I have nothing more to say except that I'll pray for God to open your spiritual eyes.

With that, I'm outta here.
 
JLB said:
Nevertheless adultery, lying, idolatry and the like will cause us to end up in the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8
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Certainly, all who would choose to trust their souls to these works of flesh we have all committed, rather than the Blood of Christ which overcomes all sin will not be delivered.
" The Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin ."
( 1 John 1:7 )
 
JLB said:
Example:

Commandment: Thou shalt not lie.

They way you keep it: You don’t lie; (tell the truth.)


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8


Please understand that this is written to born again Christians.




JLB
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Okay, but how do you keep from lying and tell the truth? The Jews were incapable of perfectly keeping the OT law, including the 613 "moral laws". Why? Because it was by their own efforts.

Christians have received the Holy Spirit, who is there to guide us into all truth. He enables us to behave in accordance with God's will in the 21st Century.

Good bye! I am following my Savior, not a list of written laws that are impossible to keep.
 
jaybo said:
Okay, but how do you keep from lying and tell the truth? The Jews were incapable of perfectly keeping the OT law, including the 613 "moral laws". Why? Because it was by their own efforts.

Christians have received the Holy Spirit, who is there to guide us into all truth. He enables us to behave in accordance with God's will in the 21st Century.

Good bye! I am following my Savior, not a list of written laws that are impossible to keep.
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Not all 613 laws were moral laws, but I have tried to explain this to you in all simplicity, but for some reason you can not see it yet.
 
jaybo said:
I can see only what the Holy Spirit shows me. I don't follow the teachings of any person.
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Straight from the Bible my brother as even what many try to separate calling them the ten commandments are all part of the 613 laws. I would be amazed if you did not follow them.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The only thing Christ has fulfilled are the Temple laws. The rest still remain through the greatest law of love and how we treat others as we want to be treated.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
for_his_glory said:
Straight from the Bible my brother as even what many try to separate calling them the ten commandments are all part of the 613 laws. I would be amazed if you did not follow them.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The only thing Christ has fulfilled are the Temple laws. The rest still remain through the greatest law of love and how we treat others as we want to be treated.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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Since I am a Christian, what Jesus said to the (unsaved) Jews and pagans doesn't apply to me. If you want to strive under the law ad infinitum be my guest. I am not under the law but under God's grace.

Good bye, my sister. I will no longer discuss the law with you. May God bless you in your vain struggle to keep the law.
 
jaybo said:
don't know why this is so hard to understand. IMHO it's not difficult. Christian have died to the law.
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Do you understand which law that Paul is referring to?
 
jaybo said:
I am not under the law but under God's grace.
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No one is saying we are under, (under obligation to keep; obey) the law of Moses.

We are under grace and obligated to obey grace: the Spirit of Grace.


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12
 
jaybo said:
what Jesus said to the (unsaved) Jews and pagans doesn't apply to me.
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Jesus said this to those who were "in Him".


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



Do you know how John said we were to remain "in Him"?
 
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