Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[Tenchi]

Bump.

There's something weird going on with this thread. After being bumped to the top of the thread list, it descends VERY quickly down the list of threads, appearing on the fifth or seventh page of the list far faster than brand new threads. Why is that? The false doctrine of sinless perfectioon is a regular topic of conversation foisted on folks on CF.net by certain posters in various forums on this site. It seems to me, then, that this particular thread would be very useful to those who are entangled by this terrible error. Apparently, whoever sinks this thread from view so quickly doesn't agree. But why is that, I wonder? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

In any event, whoever is dropping this thread rapidly from view in the thread list, please desist. The thread is helping people stand against the sinless perfection lie of the Enemy, and should, therefore remain easily accessible to them in this forum.

 

[JLB]

The thread is helping people stand against the sinless perfection lie of the Enemy,

 

[JLB]

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10, are not addressing Christians

1 John is addressing Christians.

A person would have to be severely deceived not to understand this.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You sir are in gross denial because you have deceived yourself.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:1-10


What could it hurt for you to confess your sins to God, even if you don’t understand what He considers sin, may be different than what you consider sin.


Please don’t neglect this.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes. That's what I've been saying.
That's what Acts 15 is saying.

You are errantly delineating between following the Law and following the Law to be saved.
Who would follow the L if they didn't think it would save them ?

He also teaches that you we do not make void the law because we have faith.
Rom 3:28 and 31
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

If we can be justified without the Law by faith, the Law is voided.
Keeping the Law in unnecessary for justification.
The Law, or its first ten commandments, are now written in out hearts, so we obey them by nature instead of by commandment.

(Just like Abraham)31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(Just like Abraham)
Abraham is an example for how the uncircumcised should live out their faith.

Abe' wasn't under the Law, and we don't need to be under the Law either.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why do you leave out verses 40?

I wasn't citing a verse.

Matt 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

((((((40 On these two commandments hang [all the law] and the prophets.))))))

It means if you truly follow the two greatest commands, you will by default be following the rest of the law,

Of course, if you mean the first ten commandments.
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, etc., are done away with.

That is you would if you truly love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Remember he said ALL the law, not just the "moral 10"

You are Judaizing.

the two greatest commandments aren't even in the first ten, they fall farther down in the order in Leviticus 19 and in Deut 6:5
5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

It bothers me that you seem to require Law keeping but omit the first 10 commandments.
I guess that is why you say actual obedience to God is a lie.
You choose to keep the unkeepable and omit that which is easy to keep.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 Corinthians 4:5 ljv
5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Context...
Your wouldn't be able to drive a car if you couldn't judge the distance to the car in front of you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 John is addressing Christians.

The letters are to the churches, but they are about both folks who walk in God and those who walk in sin.
Those in God don't walk in sin.

A person would have to be severely deceived not to understand this

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is a true verse, when one knows it is describing those who are not walking in God.
Verses 6 and 10 also pertain to the servants of sin.

You sir are in gross denial because you have deceived yourself.

You have been deceived into believing sinners walk in God.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:1-10


What could it hurt for you to confess your sins to God, even if you don’t understand what He considers sin, may be different than what you consider sin.

What would it hurt to confess your sins, be washed of them by the blood of Christ, and then remain in God ?

 

[Humblepie]

That

You have gotten your point across, I don't think there is any truth in your post except for the scripture, but not as you define it. There is nothing more you can say that could make me believe you or any other human today is PERFECT and without sin.


I stand by my belief, you can mock me, call me names make fun of me, I don't really care because scripture has warned me about you. I will wear your name calling as an honor.

A Judaizer is one who believes the law is required for salvation like those in Acts 15,
I am not a Judaizer
I stand with James decision.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You have gotten your point across, I don't think there is any truth in your post except for the scripture, but not as you define it. There is nothing more you can say that could make me believe you or any other human today is PERFECT and without sin.

Then you believe that nobody's name is inn the book of life.

I stand by my belief, you can mock me, call me names make fun of me, I don't really care because scripture has warned me about you. I will wear your name calling as an honor.

No thanks.

A Judaizer is one who believes the law is required for salvation like those in Acts 15,
I am not a Judaizer
I stand with James decision.

With so much of the load the Jews had to carry, removed in this NT; you still find it impossible to obey God completely ?

 

[Humblepie]

Then you believe that nobody's name is inn the book of life.

I don't believe one has to be Sinless or perfect as you claim to be in the book,
Only that you need to be saved.

 

[eddif]

So where are we?

Discussing:
1 Repentance and thus John the Baptists Baptism of repentance (and the instruction of believe in the one who comes after John, which is Jesus). Thus at a point in time a seperate baptism in water.

2. Salvation and thus the writing of your name ih the Lambs book of life.

3. Baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire by Jesus.

Now we have the truly issue. Which now I insert:
Hebrews 6:4 kjv
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It evidently is impossible to go back to square one (1), after having gone the 3? Steps.

Evidently once you see your sin, you have caused a problem you must deal with as a sin. Where you have progressed to.

I am a redneck and have said all I understand at this point.

eddif

 

[Humblepie]

No thanks

You already did

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't believe one has to be Sinless or perfect as you claim to be in the book,
Only that you need to be saved.

If your version of saved is..."still a servant of sin"; you are aiming too low.
In God, we have the power to not only resist all temptation, but have access to God for His grace and strength on behalf of others.
No sinner is "in God". (1 John 1:5)

 

[Hopeful 2]

You already did

There is no honor in defending sinfulness.

 

[Tenchi]

You already did

Just a word of warning: The more a person invests in false teaching, in defending and disseminating it, the less able they are to extract themselves from the grip of that false teaching. It's part of how God judges and punishes those who take up false doctrine and who try to bring others under its darkness. And so, their capacity to recognize the Truth (which is to say, recognize their self-deception) is an ever-decreasing one, which, at some point, dissolves entirely. Paul wrote of these kind of people:

2 Timothy 3:8-9
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all...

You'll do yourself a favor leaving such people to God's discipline. In particular, those who deny they have any sin are described in 1 John 1:8 as self-deceived and devoid of the Truth. Talking at length with such people is not unlike trying to untangle a knot of, say, a hundred electrical cords while in a lightless room wearing a pair of oven mitts. It's an impossible task that just leaves you annoyed and desperate for light.

 

[Humblepie]

Just a word of warning: The more a person invests in false teaching, in defending and disseminating it, the less able they are to extract themselves from the grip of that false teaching. It's part of how God judges and punishes those who take up false doctrine and who try to bring others under its darkness. And so, their capacity to recognize the Truth (which is to say, recognize their self-deception) is an ever-decreasing one, which, at some point, dissolves entirely. Paul wrote of these kind of people:

2 Timothy 3:8-9
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all...

You'll do yourself a favor leaving such people to God's discipline. In particular, those who deny they have any sin are described in 1 John 1:8 as self-deceived and devoid of the Truth. Talking at length with such people is not unlike trying to untangle a knot of, say, a hundred electrical cords while in a lightless room wearing a pair of oven mitts. It's an impossible task that just leaves you annoyed and desperate for light.

It seems to me no matter what scripture is quoted and explained it can always be twisted into a false doctrine.
I will never claim to know it all, but when I come across scripture that contradicts or is not fully understood, especially in Paul's teachings, I wait on the lord, and study other scriptures to give me understanding. Some scripture takes years to understand because we might not be spiritually ready because we haven't either read the correct scripture to put it in context, or we might not be spatially mature enough for that much meat. The feeling is amazing when we finally can understand those tough scriptures that on the surface may seem straightforward and simple, but are in reality very deep and hard to understand without prayer and being spiritually discerned through proper study. If you want to know the truth and ask God to show you, he will.

 

[Humblepie]

It bothers me that you seem to require Law keeping but omit the first 10 commandments.

Please show my quote where you claim I said this so I am able to correct the context in which I stated it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please show my quote where you claim I said this so I am able to correct the context in which I stated it.

Post 198.
You downplay Jesus' two commandments by bringing in the rest of the Law.
Instead of sticking to Jesus' synopsis of the Law with His two commands, you introduced "all the Law".

Are Jesus' two commands really too much for you to keep ?
Even with the gifts of repentance from sin, and the destruction of your old man with its affections and lusts ?
Even with the gift of the Holy Ghost ?

 

[Free]

Bump.

There's something weird going on with this thread. After being bumped to the top of the thread list, it descends VERY quickly down the list of threads, appearing on the fifth or seventh page of the list far faster than brand new threads. Why is that? The false doctrine of sinless perfectioon is a regular topic of conversation foisted on folks on CF.net by certain posters in various forums on this site. It seems to me, then, that this particular thread would be very useful to those who are entangled by this terrible error. Apparently, whoever sinks this thread from view so quickly doesn't agree. But why is that, I wonder? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

In any event, whoever is dropping this thread rapidly from view in the thread list, please desist. The thread is helping people stand against the sinless perfection lie of the Enemy, and should, therefore remain easily accessible to them in this forum.

It’s all based on the most recent replies. If this thread drops down the list, it’s because other threads have been replied to more recently. Nothing more.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So where are we?

Your post nearly got buried because you didn't "reply" to anyone.

Discussing:
1 Repentance and thus John the Baptists Baptism of repentance (and the instruction of believe in the one who comes after John, which is Jesus). Thus at a point in time a seperate baptism in water.

John's baptism unto repentance was with water.
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance..." (Matt 3:11)

2. Salvation and thus the writing of your name ih the Lambs book of life.

You are assigning salvation, before the race is run.

3. Baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire by Jesus.

# and 4 are two different baptisms.
The first is given by God to the repentant and washed.
The baptism of fire will be the end of the world.

Now we have the truly issue. Which now I insert:
Hebrews 6:4 kjv
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It evidently is impossible to go back to square one (1), after having gone the 3? Steps.
Evidently once you see your sin, you have caused a problem you must deal with as a sin. Where you have progressed to.

They "turned back" only in appearance.
Had they really taken part in the enlightenment, the heavenly gift, or of the Holy Ghost, they would never have fallen away.