Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[eddif]

What do you mean ?
Immediately after John the Baptist spoke of the baptism of fire he described it..."Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt 3:12)

That is an interesting / increasing comment.
But
Is not the chaff that contained the wheat?
IMHO the hard covering of my sin will be rempered no more. The chaff of our life is burned up.

The tares (not wheat) is bundled up to be burned for eternity.

It is hard to keep all the burnings seperated.

The burning bush did not consume the bush.

Purifying fire does away with our chaff.

Gold is purified by fire too. (Dross removed)

Thanks for your comment, it helped me understand more.

Mississippi redneck
eddif .

 

[Tenchi]

Not if if contradicts scripture to form a false doctrine.

??? If a belief contradicts Scripture it isn't part of what I understand orthodox Christian doctrine to be.

Jesus came to judge the false doctrine that was well established by the most educated of his day.

Oh? He was "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World," (John 1:29), wasn't he? His chief aim in taking on flesh was to "become obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians 2:8), right? It was only incidentally that Christ exposed the hypocrisy of the Pharisees while he faithfully fulfilled the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17), and established a "new and living way" through himself by which sinful people could be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20-21) and thereby approach their holy Maker with boldness (Hebrews 4:16; 9-10:22; 1 Timothy 2:5; John 14:6). So, it's hard to see that "Jesus came to judge false doctrine." He did so only incidentally to fulfilling his chief purpose: Our salvation.

Just because it's mainstream doesn't make it true.

Right. But the opposite is also true: Just because it's mainstream doesn't make it false. Increasingly, in modern western societies, orthodox Christian doctrine is not mainstream.

What you fail to realize is we need to use the law as a dictionary of sorts. Without the law you can't define what sin is.

Oh? How, exactly, have I failed to realize that the law is a "dictionary defining sin"?

Grace through faith is what saves us from the punishment of those sins.

Where have I indicated otherwise?

I am saying the same exact thing Paul is, and I don't think it would be wise to question his doctrine.

You seem to be in "combat mode," responding to my post as though it is an attack upon you. It isn't.

The law and Grace are in perfect harmony.

??? I don't know what you mean, here...

I know what falling short means, it means you missed the bullseye, it is still sin that need to be dealt with between us and God.

Okay...

I'm not hear to judge anyone in their walk,

Oh? But you wrote to me: "What you fail to realize..." This sounds to me like you're making a negative judgment about me. I've failed to realize something, right? I don't mind these sorts of statements - especially when they're quite mistaken - but it's... weird to read a judgment on me from you and then read that you're "not here to judge anyone."

It's not a narrow path because is is as easy as breathing, it involves taking up YOUR cross daily.

Your cross today may be different than my cross today, it depends on how mature your walk with Christ is.

You don't say. Actually, I think the "cross" we bear isn't some difficult circumstance or person we must endure, but is figurative of one's daily denial of oneself, as Jesus said:

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

John 12:24-25
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
25 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

I am at a scriptural advantage here because I, thanks to the Holy Spirt read and comprehend scripture without contradiction from the OT to the NT.

At an advantage? In what sense? And over whom?

Once again, the law will never justify us or make us righteous if we use the law for that purpose.
The law condemns us, his sacrifice saves us.



If we use the law, lawfully it is good.
It shows us where we need to improve in our walk with Christ.

Uh huh.

 

[Tenchi]

When you finally understand a hard truth or a deep passage that ties multiple scriptures together it is a joy or excitement that can't compare, and makes me that much more hungry and eager for God's deep truths.

What I was getting at in the remarks I made to which you're responding in the quotation above is that God's Truth is exciting and wonderful insofar as it reveals God. God's Truth is wonderful, yes, but far, far far more wonderful is the Author of that Truth, God Himself. Only ultimately because He is revealed to me in His word do I find "feeding" on it so rewarding and "nourishing."

It still amazes me at the complexity of his Holy Word and how scripture written hundreds of years apart reveal God's hidden truths.

Every word carries weight. Some skim through it and only pay attention to scripture that backs what they want to believe. I used to read it the same way, now I read it much slower and meditate on it, sometimes on just a couple of words because I want to understand the full truth of what is before me.

Do you think this guarantees a proper understanding of God's Truth? Are there other things that come to bear upon your study of God's word than the pace at which you do so?

Often it helps to read text from the time period to understand what the word is saying. (Example understanding the colossians heresy or Galatian heresy)
It's all in the full context.

Yes, cultural context can be helpful. I'd like to think, though, that God wrote His word to us such that, even without such context, we can still understand all He intended we should - especially under the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit in our minds and hearts (1 Corinthians 2:10-16).

 

[D-D-W]

Yes, cultural context can be helpful. I'd like to think, though, that God wrote His word to us such that, even without such context, we can still understand all He intended we should - especially under the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit in our minds and hearts

THAT is the primary mistake of sola scriptura.

 

[Tenchi]

THAT is the primary mistake of sola scriptura.

??? Please read 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, John 16:13.

 

[D-D-W]

??? Please read 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, John 16:13.

indeed. Written to people that had the cultural understanding of late 2nd temple Judaism.

Don't forget Paul also wrote this:

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

It is up to the Jews to interpret scripture, including NEW TESTAMENT scripture. Remove the Jewish context, you lose a LOT.

 

[Humblepie]

Yes, cultural context can be helpful. I'd like to think, though, that God wrote His word to us such that, even without such context, we can still understand all He intended we should - especially under the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit in our minds and hearts (1 Corinthians 2:10-16).

Please read post 184, 185, 186.

If you didn't know this context from the time, you would think this scripture means something different than what it actually means, but you are correct that the whole Word of God, if taken in context, already claims the same truth. Many pull one chapter, or a few verses from scripture and form their doctrine based on that fraction of the word, and therefore it taken out of the context of all scripture in both the OT, and NT.
If what you base your belief on contradicts any other scripture, your interpretation is not Biblical. It ALL has to coincide.

God is not the author of confusion, he is also the same God today as he was in Exodus. Gods righteousness and what he defined as righteousness, and his WAY for us to live righteously has never changed, only our interpretation has changed. We as Christians need to test all doctrine to scripture and rid our understanding of contradiction and confusion.

Jesus set the example we must follow
And he obeyed ALL the Torah.
2 Timothy 3:16

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is an interesting / increasing comment.
But
Is not the chaff that contained the wheat?
IMHO the hard covering of my sin will be rempered no more. The chaff of our life is burned up.

The tares (not wheat) is bundled up to be burned for eternity.

It is hard to keep all the burnings seperated.

The burning bush did not consume the bush.

Purifying fire does away with our chaff.

Gold is purified by fire too. (Dross removed)

Thanks for your comment, it helped me understand more.

Mississippi redneck
eddif .

The baptism of fire, will be the end of the world.

 

[Tenchi]

Don't forget Paul also wrote this:

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

It is up to the Jews to interpret scripture, including NEW TESTAMENT scripture. Remove the Jewish context, you lose a LOT.

??? I don't see in the verse you've offered the statement that the Jews are to interpret the New Testament for everybody.

When one reads the OT, one sees that those in possession of the "oracles of God," the Jews, constantly migrated from, and rebelled against, those "oracles" - and their Author. Why, then, are the Jews to be trusted to be the ones who "interpret" the Bible for the rest of us? As Scripture amply demonstrates, being Jewish doesn't qualify anyone for such a responsibility; there is nothing intrinsically biblically-insightful in being a Jew. And so, Paul never confers on the Jews the authority to interpret Scripture for everyone else. Instead, the writers of the NT repeatedly point to the Holy Spirit as the One illuminating the minds and hearts of all believers to the spiritual - not cultural - truth of God's word. (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; 1 John 2:27).

 

[Tenchi]

Please read post 184, 185, 186.

Just cut-and-paste from these posts the portions you think warrant my attention. I'm not going to scroll back through the thread to read them.

If what you base your belief on contradicts any other scripture, your interpretation is not Biblical. It ALL has to coincide.

Well, what do you mean by "coincide"? The Old Covenant clashes very directly and sharply with New Covenant in a variety of ways. Just read Hebrews, or Paul's letter to the Galatian believers.

God is not the author of confusion, he is also the same God today as he was in Exodus.

Yes, but He has changed the dynamic within which we interact with Him very profoundly. Though He has not changed in His essential being, the manner of our interactions certainly has.

and his WAY for us to live righteously has never changed,

??? It most certainly has changed! Enormously. Finally, in and through Jesus Christ, we have God within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit whose life and work transforms us. It is not longer our effort, our self-discipline, our power to attain to the Law that achieves a holy life for God, but the life of Christ given to us in the Spirit (Romans 8:9-16) that manifests in and through us (2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 1:6; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.).

 

[Hopeful 2]

??? It most certainly has changed! Enormously. Finally, in and through Jesus Christ, we have God within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit whose life and work transforms us. It is not longer our effort, our self-discipline, our power to attain to the Law that achieves a holy life for God, but the life of Christ given to us in the Spirit (Romans 8:9-16) that manifests in and through us (2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 1:6; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.).

After reading that, I have to ask why you think the ability to be obedient to God is a lie ?

 

[Humblepie]

Paul's letter to the Galatian believers.

No, they are long post, and they are already in this thread.

The Old Covenant clashes very directly and sharply with New Covenant in a variety of ways.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


New covenant.
1. Put LAW in hearts
2.be our God
3. Teach no more
4 we will know him
5.forgive iniquity
6 remember sin no more.


Old covenant.
Law written on stone
Blessings for following
Curses for disobedience.

The old covenant could not forgive iniquity,

It points our sin out

Jews could not enter the holy of holies

They needed to be taught the law


No where does Jeremiah state that the new covenant eliminated the law.


No where.

If the law were eliminated then the prophets would have said it first.

The new covenant has not yet been fully realized yet, we still need to teach men God's ways.


The curse of the law has been nailed to the cross, but the blessings were not nailed to the cross.

I could write a book on how it does not clash.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The new covenant has not yet been fully realized yet, we still need to teach men God's ways.

That is difficult, when so many think actually doing "God's ways" is impossible.
Or worse, a lie !

The curse of the law has been nailed to the cross, but the blessings were not nailed to the cross.

Jesus, the caster of the OT's shadows, was the blessing crucified for our sins.

I could write a book on how it does not clash.

They don't clash.
One (OT) foretold of the other (NT).

 

[Humblepie]

You seem to be in "combat mode," responding to my post as though it is an attack upon you. It isn't.

I apologize publicly, I wasn't attacking, that's not my purpose, I'm trying to enlighten through scripture and dialog and in love like we are commanded to do. Sometimes I use the word "you" when I should use the word "one" or "we"
I also notice in your post you try to correct with love, and not in combat mode.
In Brotherhood..

 

[Humblepie]

The Old Covenant clashes very directly and sharply with New Covenant

They don't clash.
One (OT) foretold of the other (NT).

How do make these fit in with the no law NT?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:21-22
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.


Proverbs 28
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them. Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand it completely.

Romans 13: 8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Psalms 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Humblepie]

One (OT) foretold of the other (NT)

Do you have an OT scripture that foretells the elimination of the law of moses?

 

[Hopeful 2]

How do make these fit in with the no law NT?

By "no Law", do you mean "no necessity for circumcision, dietary rules, wearing mixed fabrics, feast keeping, tithing, sabbath keeping, priesthood, travel restrictions, eating under a Gentile's roof, and no mixed marriages" ?
Or do you mean "no 10 commandments" ?

None of the first list will garner salvation.
Keeping all of the latter will.

 

[Humblepie]

Jesus, the caster of the OT's shadows

It's a shadow of things to come, not of things that are already here.

 

[Humblepie]

None of the first list will garner salvation.

I never claimed the law can save you, as I've said to you in many post many times.

The law only defines what sin is and points to the savior.

No law=no sin

No sin means we don't need a savior to forgive our sin.

 

[Humblepie]

eating under a Gentile's roof,

That was a commandment of MEN, the oral law, written by men.