Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[eddif]

If my sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, I am going to say that I have no sin !

About now we have to consider the Lambs Book of Lif of Life.

Is what was written still there. Are we still saying Jesus is our salvation?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Tenchi]

1 John 1:7..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin."
Your verse 8 pertains only to those who walk in darkness.

I've shown you a few times now that your view of verse 7 is quite false. Is there any point in correcting you again? Well, perhaps, for the sake of my own study of this passage, I'll make an explanation of it one last time:

1 John 1:6-10 (NASB)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

In contrast to merely taking a single step, "walk" connotes an active, repeated and ongoing condition. When one walks down a path, or roadway, one actively advances along its length, step, after step, after step, rather than just taking a single stride forward and halting. And so, "walk in darkness" in verse 6 may be understood to mean an ongoing, repeated, active condition of moving in darkness, not a single step, or even a few stumbling strides that have now ceased. The tense of the verb phrase "yet walk" agrees with this, expressing a present, active and continuing action, not a single completed action of the past.

So, then, John is describing a persistent practice of living in darkness, of doing sinful things, not a single instance, or relatively brief season, of sin. Those whose practice it is to live in sin cannot claim fellowship with God. If they do, they are liars who do not practice the truth.

It is important to note that John is speaking of fellowship with God in verse 6, not just being related to Him spiritually. All born-again believers are related to God through Christ, having become His adopted children and "joint-heirs" with Christ when they were converted (Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5). This relationship to God does not guarantee fellowship with Him, however. Many are the children of God who "live by/in the Spirit" - they are made alive spiritually by the Spirit - who do not "walk in/by the Spirit" - they are not living under his constant control and so are not filled with all that he is (Galatians 5:16, 25; Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are not daily "walking in/by the Spirit" do not enjoy fellowship with God; for there is no other means whereby such fellowship occurs except the child of God is in a persistent and consistent state of submission to the will and way of the Holy Spirit. Fellowship with God, then, is not marked merely by moral living, which any Pharisee could produce (at least, externally), but by a God-submitted manner of living and daily, concrete, transformative communion with Him.

The sinless-perfection advocate typically fixes upon the moral character of a person's living in 1 John 1:6, however, though the apostle John is referring to much more than this in the verse. Fellowship with God, walking in the Light, is about "walking in the Spirit" and about direct, personal, concrete interaction with God, as John wrote, not mere avoidance of sin.

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Here, John gives a conditional statement: If we walk in the Light as God is in the Light, we can have fellowship with one another; the obvious corollary to this being that, if we don't walk in the Light, we can't enjoy such fellowship. In other words, our spiritual fellowship with one another is predicated upon our fellowship with God (a "callback" to verse 3). If we enjoy the latter, we can properly enjoy the former.

But in this verse, John wrote, "and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." Under what circumstance would such cleansing occur? John described this circumstance in verse 9: We are cleansed from all unrighteousness as we confess it to God. In order to make such a confession, however, we must first be guilty of unrighteousness, of sin! No one confesses and is cleansed from sin they have not committed, obviously.

What is John saying, then, in verse 7, when he wrote "and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin"? If we are cleansed when we confess our sin, John must be saying that those Christians who enjoy fellowship both with God and with each other will also be sinning, confessing that sin, and being cleansed of it! He isn't referring to Christians who are "walking" in sin, of course, who make a persistent practice of sinful living, but Christians who sin on occasion, who may even wrestle with a particular sin for a season as God delivers them fully from it, but whose general tenor of living is in the direction of increasing holiness.

This comports fully with 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6 and 7, Ephesians 5:1-13, Revelation 2-3 and every other place in the New Testament where criticism, correction and instruction is given to born-again saints.

So far, I see NOTHING in what John wrote in this passage from 1 John 1 that supports a sinless-perfection construction of his words. Instead, there is just a growing collection of statements that directly defy such a construction and clearly indicate that saints do, in fact, sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here, John offers another conditional statement, anticipating that some might over-extend the import of his words and force something like a sinless-perfection interpretation upon them. He flatly rules out this possibility, denying that sinless perfection is possible both for himself and his readers. He does this by using the collective pronouns "we" and "us" that include himself in his statements. Neither John's readers, nor John himself (the greatest contributor to the New Testament), could say "I have no sin"; the verb phrase "we have" indicating a present, continuing action. So, then, neither John nor his readers could say that in the present (or future) "we have no sin." To do so, John wrote, would reveal a state of self-deception and absence of the truth within the self-deceived person.

Nothing could be more plain in countering a sinless perfection view than verse 8. Not only does John reject such an idea outright, but warns that those purveying such a view are self-deceived and devoid of the truth. Beware such people! They are false teachers, offering poison under the guise of "truth"!

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The saint who sins, John wrote in this verse, always has recourse to God's immediate forgiveness and cleansing, who responds to our confession of our sin as He does for Jesus's sake. When we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous, who says to God, when the Accuser (Revelation 12:10) points a devilish, condemning finger at the saint who sins, "I have paid the penalty for their sin, it is fully covered by the sacrifice of myself for them at Calvary."

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(See also Hebrews 9-10:22)

So, then, the sinless-perfection proponent who joins the devil in his accusing work, declaring the sinning saint "persona non grata" and outside of the family and kingdom of God, just further reveals in such activity the truth and effect of verse 8. Instead of exposing the wretchedness of others, the sinless-perfection advocate simply exposes their own desperate spiritual condition.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Just to make himself perfectly understood, John, here, repeats the declaration of verse 8, a second time ruling out a sinless-perfection contortion of his words. How incredible it is to me, then, when those espousing the sinless-perfection error take the devil's approach and try to deny the explicit and obvious statement of God's word laid out in this passage. How great their self-deception must be in order to do this! How complete the absence of truth must be in one who can deny so plain a statement of Scripture and, in effect, call God a liar! Give no heed to one so mired in error! They will only pull you down into the "quicksand" of their self-deception and opposition to God and His truth.

 

[Hopeful 2]

About now we have to consider the Lambs Book of Life.

Why ?

Is what was written still there.? Are we still saying Jesus is our salvation?

If our name is still in the book of life, we will be granted eternal life on the day of judgement.
Who can say anyone else "is their salvation" ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I've shown you a few times now that your view of verse 7 is quite false. Is there any point in correcting you again? Well, perhaps, for the sake of my own study of this passage, I'll make an explanation of it one last time:

1 John 1:6-10 (NASB)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

In contrast to merely taking a single step, "walk" connotes an active, repeated and ongoing condition. When one walks down a path, or roadway, one actively advances along its length, step, after step, after step, rather than just taking a single stride forward and halting. And so, "walk in darkness" in verse 6 may be understood to mean an ongoing, repeated, active condition of moving in darkness, not a single step, or even a few stumbling strides that have now ceased. The tense of the verb phrase "yet walk" agrees with this, expressing a present, active and continuing action, not a single completed action of the past.

So, then, John is describing a persistent practice of living in darkness, of doing sinful things, not a single instance, or relatively brief season, of sin. Those whose practice it is to live in sin cannot claim fellowship with God. If they do, they are liars who do not practice the truth.

It is important to note that John is speaking of fellowship with God in verse 6, not just being related to Him spiritually. All born-again believers are related to God through Christ, having become His adopted children and "joint-heirs" with Christ when they were converted (Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5). This relationship to God does not guarantee fellowship with Him, however. Many are the children of God who "live by/in the Spirit" - they are made alive spiritually by the Spirit - who do not "walk in/by the Spirit" - they are not living under his constant control and so are not filled with all that he is (Galatians 5:16, 25; Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are not daily "walking in/by the Spirit" do not enjoy fellowship with God; for there is no other means whereby such fellowship occurs except the child of God is in a persistent and consistent state of submission to the will and way of the Holy Spirit. Fellowship with God, then, is not marked merely by moral living, which any Pharisee could produce (at least, externally), but by a God-submitted manner of living and daily, concrete, transformative communion with Him.

The sinless-perfection advocate typically fixes upon the moral character of a person's living in 1 John 1:6, however, though the apostle John is referring to much more than this in the verse. Fellowship with God, walking in the Light, is about "walking in the Spirit" and about direct, personal, concrete interaction with God, as John wrote, not mere avoidance of sin.

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Here, John gives a conditional statement: If we walk in the Light as God is in the Light, we can have fellowship with one another; the obvious corollary to this being that, if we don't walk in the Light, we can't enjoy such fellowship. In other words, our spiritual fellowship with one another is predicated upon our fellowship with God (a "callback" to verse 3). If we enjoy the latter, we can properly enjoy the former.

But in this verse, John wrote, "and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." Under what circumstance would such cleansing occur? John described this circumstance in verse 9: We are cleansed from all unrighteousness as we confess it to God. In order to make such a confession, however, we must first be guilty of unrighteousness, of sin! No one confesses and is cleansed from sin they have not committed, obviously.

What is John saying, then, in verse 7, when he wrote "and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin"? If we are cleansed when we confess our sin, John must be saying that those Christians who enjoy fellowship both with God and with each other will also be sinning, confessing that sin, and being cleansed of it! He isn't referring to Christians who are "walking" in sin, of course, who make a persistent practice of sinful living, but Christians who sin on occasion, who may even wrestle with a particular sin for a season as God delivers them fully from it, but whose general tenor of living is in the direction of increasing holiness.

This comports fully with 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6 and 7, Ephesians 5:1-13, Revelation 2-3 and every other place in the New Testament where criticism, correction and instruction is given to born-again saints.

So far, I see NOTHING in what John wrote in this passage from 1 John 1 that supports a sinless-perfection construction of his words. Instead, there is just a growing collection of statements that directly defy such a construction and clearly indicate that saints do, in fact, sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here, John offers another conditional statement, anticipating that some might over-extend the import of his words and force something like a sinless-perfection interpretation upon them. He flatly rules out this possibility, denying that sinless perfection is possible both for himself and his readers. He does this by using the collective pronouns "we" and "us" that include himself in his statements. Neither John's readers, nor John himself (the greatest contributor to the New Testament), could say "I have no sin"; the verb phrase "we have" indicating a present, continuing action. So, then, neither John nor his readers could say that in the present (or future) "we have no sin." To do so, John wrote, would reveal a state of self-deception and absence of the truth within the self-deceived person.

Nothing could be more plain in countering a sinless perfection view than verse 8. Not only does John reject such an idea outright, but warns that those purveying such a view are self-deceived and devoid of the truth. Beware such people! They are false teachers, offering poison under the guise of "truth"!

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The saint who sins, John wrote in this verse, always has recourse to God's immediate forgiveness and cleansing, who responds to our confession of our sin as He does for Jesus's sake. When we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous, who says to God, when the Accuser (Revelation 12:10) points a devilish, condemning finger at the saint who sins, "I have paid the penalty for their sin, it is fully covered by the sacrifice of myself for them at Calvary."

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(See also Hebrews 9-10:22)

So, then, the sinless-perfection proponent who joins the devil in his accusing work, declaring the sinning saint "persona non grata" and outside of the family and kingdom of God, just further reveals in such activity the truth and effect of verse 8. Instead of exposing the wretchedness of others, the sinless-perfection advocate simply exposes their own desperate spiritual condition.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Just to make himself perfectly understood, John, here, repeats the declaration of verse 8, a second time ruling out a sinless-perfection contortion of his words. How incredible it is to me, then, when those espousing the sinless-perfection error take the devil's approach and try to deny the explicit and obvious statement of God's word laid out in this passage. How great their self-deception must be in order to do this! How complete the absence of truth must be in one who can deny so plain a statement of Scripture and, in effect, call God a liar! Give no heed to one so mired in error! They will only pull you down into the "quicksand" of their self-deception and opposition to God and His truth.

Are sinners walking in God ?
No, they walk in darkness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I hope it's instructive to those reading this thread how...lame the response is to the OP from the sinless perfection side. There is nothing, really, but false dichotomies, out-of-context manipulation of Scripture, and mere contradiction rather than sound argument in the response. This is fairly typical of false doctrine, however.

Wouldn't you rather live in accordance to God's will than to live in sin ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

The beauty of your post is:!

Verse 8- the lawful use of the law placed in our hearts and minds. The Prophets said this would happen.

Verse 9 - sets forgiveness in action and a good outcome of having done verse 8. Who does verse 9? The Godhead.

Verse 10 - proclaims you are truthfull if you have used the law lawfully, and praised Jesus for having fulfilled the law.

All that in 3 verses in a row.

I am sure my redneck comments can be improved.
eddif

You know who wants to do verse 9 ?
Those who want forgiveness for their past sins so they too can start to walk in God...the light

 

[Tenchi]

See, Hopeful 2? You have no rebuttal. But of course you don't. Error always collapses under the weight of truth.

 

[Hopeful 2]

See? You have no rebuttal. But of course you don't. Error always collapses under the weight of truth.

Why should I rebut what I have already discussed multiple times ?
You want to continue disobeying God and I don't want to ever offend God again.
There is nothing left to discuss.

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[eddif]

Why ?

If our name is still in the book of life, we will be granted eternal life on the day of judgement.
Who can say anyone else "is their salvation

Psalms 69:28 kjv
28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Two books mentioned here, one is about righteous.
What was written may be removed.

Since you said still written I think we are saying the same thing.

I am slightly sun blind right now.


Hope letters and numbers are correct.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Tenchi]

There is nothing left to discuss.

You got that right!

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[electedbyHim]

You got that right!

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Exactly.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Psalms 69:28 kjv
28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Two books mentioned here, one is about righteous.
What was written may be removed.

Since you said still written I think we are saying the same thing.

I am slightly sun blind right now.


Hope letters and numbers are correct.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Don't you think the book of life and the book of the living are the same thing ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You got that right!

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1;7)
Your verse 8 pertains to the sinners. Those who walk in darkness-sin
My verse 7 pertains to the repentant. Those who walk in the light-God.
Choose where you walk.

 

[Tenchi]

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1;7)
Your verse 8 pertains to the sinners. Those who walk in darkness-sin
My verse 7 pertains to the repentant. Those who walk in the light-God.
Choose where you walk.

Nope. See post #82.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nope. See post #82.

See 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

The choices are, walk in sin or walk in God.

 

[eddif]

Don't you think the book of life and the book of the living are the same thing ?

IMHO not really. But I can’t do a 150 word statement.

Two births:
Physical
Spiritual

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Tenchi]

See 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

The choices are, walk in sin or walk in God.

Nope. See post #82.

 

[Hopeful 2]

IMHO not really. But I can’t do a 150 word statement.

Both those statements surprise me.

Two births:
Physical
Spiritual

Yeah; the first ends so the second can commence.
But the book of life will be used on the day of judgement to see who obeyed Christ or not.
Our old man's destruction doesn't figure into that judgement.
Except for whether or not that destruction happened.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nope. See post #82.

Are you opining that we can walk in sin and in God ?
I hope not.

 

[eddif]

Both those statements surprise me.

We were talking about two different books.

The word (and) is in the Psalms passage. Between book of living and righteousness.

I similar to Jesus becoming a life giving Spirit. Which could seem to be the Holy Spirit. I do not think those are the same, but I do not know/have the words to explain the difference.

The books are opene. At judgement day, but I do not have the list of books.

I see through a glass darkly now.
At the last trump I will be changed and will be able to see.

Mississippi redneck
eddif