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Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.
- Thread starter Tenchi
- Start date
Humblepie
Member“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance [body, King James Version] is of Christ” (Colossians 2:16-17).
Some claim that these verses abolish the law about clean and unclean animals, and that Christians may now eat pork, shellfish and the other meats designated as “unclean” in Leviticus 11:1-23 and Deuteronomy 14:3-20. Is this true?
Understanding the context: the influence of pagan philosophies
As in all matters of biblical interpretation, context is important. The Colossian church was being troubled by various strange ideas, such as worship of angels. Some of the philosophies mentioned in Colossians bear resemblance to the teachings of the later gnostics, who believed that spirit and matter were in essential conflict. They considered the spirit good and the body to be evil. Some gnostics tended toward libertinism (indulgence of the physical), while others were ascetic, believing all pleasurable activity was sinful.
These elements of gnostic doctrine are reflected in the book of Colossians. Note the mentions of false humility and worship of angels in Colossians 2:18: “Let no one cheat you of your reward [eternal life in God’s Kingdom], taking delight in false humility and worship of angels.”
Note also the reference to asceticism in verses 20-21: “Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—‘Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle’
When placed in this context, Colossians 2:16 and 17 make good sense. These verses don’t use the Greek word for meat or flesh, kreas, which is used in Romans 14:21 and 1 Corinthians 8:13. Rather the word is brosis, a more general word for eating of food, coupled with posis, the general word for imbibing of any beverage. There is no explicit mention of animal flesh here at all.
It seems the ascetic heretics wished to deprive the Christians of lawful enjoyment of the normal activities of eating and drinking, such as in celebrating a festival. Apparently these ascetics thought some in the congregation at Colosse were enjoying their food and drink too much!
Paul told the members in Colosse not to be concerned about what these ascetics were saying about their eating and drinking (of things that were biblically lawful) or to worry about any other ascetic practices related to a new moon, festival or Sabbaths that these people might try to force upon the members. These two verses don’t change God’s laws about eating and drinking and they don’t abolish festive occasions.
It didn't say "if we sin".
1 John 2:1..." My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
It said "if any man sin".
Those "any men" are those who have yet to use the Advocate's death, burial, and resurrection to be cleansed, and raised from Jesus' death and burial to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That new life is as a reborn from God's seed child of God.
That life is without sin.
...derail...
Humblepie
Member
Sin is sin.
What defines sin?
What is considered sin according to scripture?
You can't say you are Sinless if you don't have a clue as to what sin is.
Humblepie
Memberthe slaughter of an animal for halal meat sold at costco is considered a sacrifice to Allah, and involves saying Allah's name during the process.
Is it OK with God to eat this meat if you know it's been sacrificed to allah?
Would you call yourself Sinless if you did consume this meat?
I usually use 1 John 5:17's description of sin..."All unrighteousness is sin: ..."
What definition do you usually use ?
Oh oh...hypotheticals.
If I even knew it was 'blessed' by a non-God, I would abstain from it for the conscience sake of the delivers of said news.
If I didn't know about its past, eating it would be no sin for me.
Even if I did know, it would still be just meat to me.
Do you hold allah blessed meat in some high esteem ?
Humblepie
Member
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin ((((((((is)))))))) the transgression of the law.
That's a definitive statement. No debate.
1 John 5:17
17 All unrighteousness is sin: ****(as 1 jn 3:4 states transgression of the law is sin)*** and there is a sin not unto death.
Humblepie
Member
To you it may be just meat, to God it is an abomination.
It sounds like you are rebelling against God's word, and that is sin my friend.
Acts 15:20
20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols,
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2
If we as Christians sin, we confess our sin and are forgiven.Last edited:
That is a good definition too.
As sinners are still under the Law, (while the Godly are dead to the Law), the sinners are still held to the hundreds of precepts in the Mosaic Law and customs.
Yep.
BTW, a sin NOT unto death is one that is repented of, permanently.
Humblepie
Member
The Godly are dead to the curse of the law, not to the law.
It is written...
- Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. - Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Humblepie
Member
What law is he dead from?
He is dead from the law of sin.
That law is if you sin, you experience eternal death. We are not under that law, we are under grace.
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Did you get that last verse and verse 23.
He claims we are dead to the law of sin.
Remember what Peter said about Paul's writings.
2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
Matthew 4:4 kjv
4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
I am not against your personal dietary beliefs. That is between you and God.
I will try and open some symbolism for us all.
Following Matthew 4 is Matthew chapters 5,6,7
They are about inner aspects, rather than the ordnances.
For 8? Years I sort of avoided unclean food. I finally saw that food was a type and shadow of: fear, greed, lust, hatred etc. unclean inner sin.
This can be a peaceful conversation. The circumcision party was amazed at the gentile inclusion.
Context can be a precept used to destroy a concept. I think that is the saying.
When Jesus said
(The seed is the Word of God)
Two context areas far seperated from each other.
But
Jesus said they are the same when used as symbols in parables.
Mississippi tedneck
eddif
Humblepie
Member
He was telling us how to live by the Spirit of the law not just the letter of the law.
Or maybe there is a Spirit of the Law.
The seed is the Word of God.
The seed symbolism is hidden from creation; way to seek to know God clearly seen now: the seed DNA tells the way the seed develops. Just as the Word of God ( by the Holy Spirit) leads us into all truth.
We are individuals. Led by differing gifts.
Mississippi redneck
eddif