The mess that OSAS theology made

[joyinhim]

joyinhim,
Thanks for the response. While I appreciate the time it took to respond you did not answer my question. Here it is again.

What exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the OSAS theology?

I would still ask for Biblical reasoning.
The reason I ask this is I need to verify what you say with Gods word. If I can't verify it then how do I know what you are saying is coming from God and not just your opinion?

I hope this makes sense.

There is another OSAS thread, I believe those opposers of OSAS did a good job on the Scriptural part.

If you don't like what they have to say you will not like what anyone else says.

If we are true followers we will know by our fruit of Christianity. I hope you look for actual fruit instead of the numbers of the members.

If we are not true followers we will be decieved easily and we don't even care about the fruit of Christianity if you know what I mean.

I know there are other threads on this. I have read most of them.
You are the one that started this one and you are the one I have asked the question of.

Is there any particular reason I am not worth answering?

Why are you interested in my scripture quote? Are you testing me if I hve the Bible knowledge? I told you if you don't like the scriptural quote in other thread you would not like mine either. Are you picking a fight?

I read your PM to me and we are not going to agree on many Bible interpretations.

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,

You asked...

Could being blotted out of the book of life mean that all mankind was written in the book, but only those that are born again will remain and not be blotted out?

I suppose anything "could" be possible. And, if that turns out to be the case, I'll be covered. But, in my view, only one who is trying to make Scripture fit a preconceived situation would make such a leap. That is NOT what I see when I read it.

You stated...
[quote:e288a]Does the verse that says that believers are born again with a free gift of eternal life that is sinless because born again creature is the new creature born of God mean anything to you? Does it seem like you could have an error of judgment in your assessment of salvation, in that God is perfect and does not lie; therefore, when he says that we are born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, we are just that, born again freed from the penalty of sin, and sealed unto the day of redemption?

If this were the sum total of all the Scripture in the Bible, then you would be exactly right! But, it isn't, and, therefore, sadly, you aren't!

But, if you truly believe that your above quote IS correctly interpreted, then justify it with the following passage...

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

You state...

Some of the passages that you cite are passages that describe those that were never born again. Other passages refer to the non-profitability of sin in this life, not salvation. Salvation does not include the corrupt, mortal flesh that we carry around on a day to day basis. Salvation is for the spirit born again of God and the resurrection of the changed body which will be immortal and incorruptible. I do not read anywhere where the child of God is cast into a position where he is condemned again; nor do I find anywhere in the Bible where a soul must be born again two, three, four, a hundred more times everytime a personally defined sin carries him away.

You're gonna have to be more specific here. I'm not sure what passage you're putting in which category. And, no where have I said, or implied, even on another thread, anything about being born again more than one time. When a disobedient Christian repents from sin, they become a FORGIVEN Christian, AGAIN, an OBEDIENT Christian, AGAIN.

NOT a RE-RE-RE-born again Christian.

Didn't we go through this once before on another thread?

In Christ,

farley[/quote:e288a]
farley,
Was the Apostle Paul ever a disobedient Christian? Was Peter ever a disobedient Christian? Was King David ever disobedient? Was Noah ever disobedient? What does disobedience of the chosen and saved have to do with salvation?

The verse that you subscribed as a person loosing his salvation is part of the following, and is in context:

12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. 13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:12-20

Notice in verse 15 it says that if one has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. In verse 19 and 20 if a brother errs from the truth another brother should remind him that when a sinner is converted to a believer his soul is saved from death whereby a multitude of sins will be hid.

A believer is a believer is a believer, saved by the God of creation while we were yet sinners. If a person is born again, he will enter the kingdom of God according to Jesus, so why would you confuse the flesh being under the bondage to sin, as that portion which determines the person's eternity, and as being more powerful than the born again, born of God portion of a believer which is sealed unto the day of redemption by God himself?

Why would God save a sinner, just to let him go back to the eternal condemnation where he was from, because he sinned again?

If sinning was going to determine where one would spend eternity, when one has been born of the Spirit of God after believing in the Only Son of God who was put to death for our sins, is it not a ridiculous summation that Jesus was not strong enough to keep his bought possessions from hell?

Paul was disobedient according to Romans by not doing the things that he knew that he should do, and doing the things that he knew he should not do. He recognized that in the flesh, he was a wretched man.

Peter was disobedient according to Galatians 2 when he did not walk uprightly according to the gospel. Did he lose his born again, born of the Spirit identity?

If God would send his only begotten son to die on the cross for sinners, while we were yet sinners, do you think that he would renig on his promise to save us? Do you see that believers are a work in progress waiting until the day when we no longer see things darkly as through a glass, but instead see Jesus face to face because we will be immortal and incorruptible just like him.

 

[PHIL121]

So many assumptons so little evidence.

I know EXACTLY how you feel :wink:

Yes, I believe that there is a book of life, a real book! What kind of a Christian would I be if I didn't believe what the Bible says? The Scripture doesn't go into detail on the mechanics of how it will be done.

Oh...I dunno ...Revelation 20:11-15 is pretty clear on what the Great White Throne of Judgement will be like.

Of course, Christians have a substitute for THAT judgement.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh...I dunno ...Revelation 20:11-15 is pretty clear on what the Great White Throne of Judgement will be like.

Of course, Christians have a substitute for THAT judgement.

Ooh, I don't know if I would call it a "substitute" judgement, but I think this is what you are referring to Phil...

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Klee shay]

Why are you interested in my scripture quote? Are you testing me if I hve the Bible knowledge? I told you if you don't like the scriptural quote in other thread you would not like mine either. Are you picking a fight?

I suppose he's only picking a fight if you're looking for one.

Another way to perceive NRoof's "questions" is from the context that you started a thread about OSAS. He may be assuming you're objective on the manner on which you seem to speak with such authority.

Always with the negativity...why be so negative about a subject you started that people seem genuinely interested enough to discuss?

 

[farley]

MM,

You said...

Sure but some things are literal and some things are metaphors. The fact that you think it's a literal book and that God made mistakes - saddens me.

I guess Scripture isn't the only thing thats open to interpretation. I thought that a metaphor was like when believers were spoken of as seeds which fell onto different types of soil, or branches of a vine which responded to and suffered from diverse treatments.

I'm feeling kind of empowered, now, to know that records are being stored in a book, of all things, and that this is called a 'metaphor'.

Also, I never said that God made mistakes. This is a wonderful example of your ability to properly interpret the written word. Blaming your mistakes on God is a poor example to be setting for the rest of this forum, BTW!

You provided...

1 Pet 1:4-5
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Crace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(NKJ)

...who are kept by the power of God through faith... Those spoken off in this passage are the obedient Christians, the elect.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." (John 10:27,28

...and they follow Me... Those referenced here in this passage are the obedient Christians. Disobedient Christians do not follow the commandments of Christ, John 14:15. Also, Satan doesn't FORCE anyone to do anything. He seduces, lures, woos one to let go, push away, reject Christ.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

...whosoever liveth and believeth in me... Duuuhhhh!!! Those referenced here are GUESS WHO! Obedient Christians that believe in Christ, and obey His words!

And, so it goes with all of the remaining passages here!!!

Open your eyes and read...understand...perceive!!!

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

Jude 24. Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

"The steps of the good man are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down. For the Lord upholdeth him with his hand"

Ephesians 1:14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And people say this is 'false security'?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I guess Scripture isn't the only thing thats open to interpretation. I thought that a metaphor was like when believers were spoken of as seeds which fell onto different types of soil, or branches of a vine which responded to and suffered from diverse treatments.

There are a lot of metaphors for different things ;)

I'm feeling kind of empowered, now, to know that records are being stored in a book, of all things, and that this is called a 'metaphor'.

so you don't think that God is smart enough to remember all the names, he needs a log book?

Also, I never said that God made mistakes. This is a wonderful example of your ability to properly interpret the written word. Blaming your mistakes on God is a poor example to be setting for the rest of this forum, BTW!

Well the fact that you think that he has an actual book that he puts people's names in, then erases them, then puts them in again over and over according if they were 'good' or not - shows me that you MUST think that god makes mistakes. He KNOWS WHO HIS CHILDREN ARE since before the foundations of the world. The children are written in this metaphoric book and will not be blotted out with a correction pen ;)

 

[Merry Menagerie]

1 Pet 1:4-5
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Crace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(NKJ)

...who are kept by the power of God through faith... Those spoken off in this passage are the obedient Christians, the elect.

Errr yes! No kidding! Faith is a gift from God remember ;)

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." (John 10:27,28

...and they follow Me... Those referenced here in this passage are the obedient Christians. Disobedient Christians do not follow the commandments of Christ, John 14:15. Also, Satan doesn't FORCE anyone to do anything. He seduces, lures, woos one to let go, push away, reject Christ.

The sheep follow the shepherd it's a fact! And no one can pluck them out - so where does the 'falling away' part come into this?

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

...whosoever liveth and believeth in me... Duuuhhhh!!! Those referenced here are GUESS WHO! Obedient Christians that believe in Christ, and obey His words!

Err no it's about people who believe. The obedience comes through Christ - not us. And please don't speak to me in such a condescending tone - I didn't do that to you!

And, so it goes with all of the remaining passages here!!!

Open your eyes and read...understand...perceive!!!

I do!

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

Jude 24. Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

"The steps of the good man are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down. For the Lord upholdeth him with his hand"

Ephesians 1:14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And people say this is 'false security'?

It's clear that you do not understand the power of God and what the Holy Spirit is for and what a new creation means. Good luck with all your law keeping there - you'll need it

 

[PHIL121]

Oh...I dunno ...Revelation 20:11-15 is pretty clear on what the Great White Throne of Judgement will be like.

Of course, Christians have a substitute for THAT judgement.

Ooh, I don't know if I would call it a "substitute" judgement.

Yeah I guess you are right, since Christ will judge, he won't be taking our place there.

 

[NRoof]

Why are you interested in my scripture quote? Are you testing me if I hve the Bible knowledge? I told you if you don't like the scriptural quote in other thread you would not like mine either. Are you picking a fight?

Lets start with your last question to me.
Am I trying to pick a fight with you? The answer to that is no. I have not and will not pick a fight with anyone here and if I inadvertently say things that are hurtful I will public ally apologize. I don't believe that to be the case here but if you feel I have been then please let me know.

Why are you interested in my scripture quote?

The simple reason is because I am trying to understand where you are coming from. In order to have a conversation of this type you have to understand the position of the other person. That is simply what I am trying to do. Who knows you may have some insight that I am missing. For this reason I will rephrase my question.

What in your own words do you disagree with regarding the OSAS theology?

I read your PM to me and we are not going to agree on many Bible interpretations

In the PM I sent you (in response to another thread) I simply agreed with what you said but I thought there was more to it. You responded you completely disagreed with me.
I responded you disagree with me agreeing with you :smt102

At this time I will back out of this thread. I don't see this benefiting anyone if I continue. If however you want to answer my 1 question I will be more that glad to continue if that be your desire.

God Bless

 

[PHIL121]

Oh...I dunno ...Revelation 20:11-15 is pretty clear on what the Great White Throne of Judgement will be like.

Of course, Christians have a substitute for THAT judgement.

Ooh, I don't know if I would call it a "substitute" judgement, but I think this is what you are referring to Phil...

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Actually THIS is the judgement I was refering to....

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Amazing how the Lord leads you to a bit of scripture :angel:

 

[Vic C.]

Amazing how the Lord leads you to a bit of scripture :angel:

Amen!... and thank you. That passage slipped my mind. I was reading a little something about these that will be judged, but this passage was never mentioned. (or I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet - lol)

Anyway, I just ran across this, which is about this very passage...

Matthew 25:31-46 is thus a judgment passage which deals with survivors of the tribulation. Believers who survive won't appear at the judgment seat of Christ. (Neither, by the way, will those who become believers during the millennium. They will evidently be judged at the end of the millennium. While we can't be certain, I imagine that Old Testament saints will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ -- or possibly immediately before or after it.) Similarly, unbelievers who survive the tribulation evidently won't appear at the Great White Throne Judgment. Matthew 25:41-46 records their final judgment -- 1000 years before that of Satan and his angels and the unsaved dead at the end of the Millennium (cf. Revelation 20:11-15). The uniqueness of this judgment, unlike the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment, is that believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time and place.

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html

Does this make any sense to you?

 

[farley]

Hi Solo,

farley,
Was the Apostle Paul ever a disobedient Christian? Was Peter ever a disobedient Christian? Was King David ever disobedient? Was Noah ever disobedient? What does disobedience of the chosen and saved have to do with salvation?

The verse that you subscribed as a person loosing his salvation is part of the following, and is in context:

12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. 13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:12-20

Notice in verse 15 it says that if one has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I need to ask for a little clarification here. I see, “…they shall be forgiven him.â€Â, as meaning ‘once he has properly repented of these sins’. Do you agree here, or are you saying that forgiveness is some sort of an automatic process which happens once one has been born again?

In verse 19 and 20 if a brother errs from the truth another brother should remind him that when a sinner is converted to a believer his soul is saved from death whereby a multitude of sins will be hid.

A believer is a believer is a believer, saved by the God of creation while we were yet sinners. If a person is born again, he will enter the kingdom of God according to Jesus, so why would you confuse the flesh being under the bondage to sin, as that portion which determines the person's eternity, and as being more powerful than the born again, born of God portion of a believer which is sealed unto the day of redemption by God himself?

Solo, I'm trying real hard to see your point here, but your above comment seems to directly, majorly, as in TOTALLY, conflict with verses 19 and 20, above! I’m sorry, but conflicts signal misinterpretations to me, and hopefully to you. If it is me not seeing something, then please help me here!

Why would God save a sinner, just to let him go back to the eternal condemnation where he was from, because he sinned again?

WHY? I have no idea why God does what He does! I’m just trying to determine what He expects me to do, and do it!

Let me present another passage for your interpretation…

Revelation 21:8 KJV
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I see the “unbelieving†here, as being included in with all of these other sinners. Not as all of these sins listed above, as those committed by only the unbelieving.

Therefore, I have no choice but to believe what this Scripture says to me. Which is – any Christian who has an unrepented sin, even a lie, charged against them upon death, risks eternal damnation.

Otherwise, what is the meaning of these two following passages…

Matthew 7:14 KJV
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Philippians 2:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If sinning was going to determine where one would spend eternity, when one has been born of the Spirit of God after believing in the Only Son of God who was put to death for our sins, is it not a ridiculous summation that Jesus was not strong enough to keep his bought possessions from hell?

I see this as faulty interpretation here. You seem to be putting the burden of our salvation on Christ. He has provided the grace. I see it as being our job to be obedient and to provide the faith and works as commanded.

Paul was disobedient according to Romans by not doing the things that he knew that he should do, and doing the things that he knew he should not do. He recognized that in the flesh, he was a wretched man.

Peter was disobedient according to Galatians 2 when he did not walk uprightly according to the gospel. Did he lose his born again, born of the Spirit identity?

Obviously, Peter, Paul, David, Noah…and hopefully all sinners, alien as well as Christian, have responded, are responding, and will respond as the Scripture so provides.

BTW, Please don’t think that I suffer from the illusion that you are going to let go of your doctrine, and embrace my view. I’m just hoping that, by better understanding your view, I’ll be better prepared to respond to others who feel as you do.

If God would send his only begotten son to die on the cross for sinners, while we were yet sinners, do you think that he would renig on his promise to save us? Do you see that believers are a work in progress waiting until the day when we no longer see things darkly as through a glass, but instead see Jesus face to face because we will be immortal and incorruptible just like him.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

farley,
When you understand salvation and the born of the Spirit gift of God, and when you understand the difference between the corrupt mortal flesh and the sinless new man, then you will understand the scriptures relating to the grace of God. Until then you will ride the rollercoaster of unknown salvation because you will never live a sin free life in your corrupt flesh, and you will never know all of the sins that you are committing in your imperfect unredeemed flesh.
Michael

 

[joyinhim]

We should never give any impression that salvation is so easy and cheap.

Of course Jesus is inviting everyone to accept His gift and of course it's free.

At the same time once, we accept His free gift He is giving us a lot of responsibilities. If are not willing to take responsibilities we will not change.

If we are not willing to give up our old ways we will not change.

According to the Bible, if we don't change we are not a new creation and we cannot we say we are saved.

 

[Solo]

We should never give any impression that salvation is so easy and cheap.

Of course Jesus is inviting everyone to accept His gift and of course it's free.

At the same time once, we accept His free gift He is giving us a lot of responsibilities. If are not willing to take responsibilities we will not change.

If we are not willing to give up our old ways we will not change.

According to the Bible, if we don't change we are not a new creation and we cannot we say we are saved.

Could you please give references that you allude to in your statement according to the Bible. Thank you.

How do you accept Jesus' free gift? and What happens to a person after accepting the free gift?

What responsibilities do we have after accepting the free gift?

I do agree with you in that believers must give up their old ways after they have received the free gift of salvation.

 

[farley]

Solo,

I sense that you are done with this discussion, which is fine.

Please, allow me one final remark here. I just discovered one of your questions that I failed to respond to. Maybe, if we resolve it, here in this thread, it may very well end up striking a chord with someone, somewhere, sometime down the road.

In response to my reference of...

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

...you offer this as one of your comments.

What does disobedience of the chosen and saved have to do with salvation?

I'm seeing, here, the difference under discussion is only a matter of life and death!!!

Now, in your later post, you tell me that I don't understand salvation. Which may very well be true. I freely admit that I don't know, or understand, a lot of things.

But, I have to ask you to explain to me your position, with references, regarding your reply to the passage above. Hopefully, I'm taking something out of context here, or some how have misinterpreted your position on this matter.

Please, help me to understand what you are meaning here.

Thanks in advance, in Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I sense that you are done with this discussion, which is fine.

Please, allow me one final remark here. I just discovered one of your questions that I failed to respond to. Maybe, if we resolve it, here in this thread, it may very well end up striking a chord with someone, somewhere, sometime down the road.

In response to my reference of...

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

...you offer this as one of your comments.

What does disobedience of the chosen and saved have to do with salvation?

I'm seeing, here, the difference under discussion is only a matter of life and death!!!

Now, in your later post, you tell me that I don't understand salvation. Which may very well be true. I freely admit that I don't know, or understand, a lot of things.

But, I have to ask you to explain to me your position, with references, regarding your reply to the passage above. Hopefully, I'm taking something out of context here, or some how have misinterpreted your position on this matter.

Please, help me to understand what you are meaning here.

Thanks in advance, in Christ,

farley

farley,
The questions that you need to ask yourself are:

Have I disobeyed Jesus at all since I have been born again? If I have, did I receive forgiveness for my sins? Did I receive forgiveness for my sins because I confessed them, or because they were forgiven at the cross of Jesus? When I disobey Jesus, will I become unborn again? When I disobey Jesus, will I remain born again, but be on my way to hell because of sin that Jesus was not able to forgive me for at the cross? What is being born again? Does being born again guarantee me a place in the kingdom of God, or do I have to work towards that salvation? What does Paul mean in Romans 7 that he does the things that he knows that he shouldn't do, and that he doesn't do the things that he knows that he should do; and that he recognizes that no good thing dwells in his flesh, that it is sold to sin.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

When a person is born again, born of God is he still able to be thrown to hell? How and why?

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:16-23

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3



5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10


For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:18

In conclusion, in order to be saved one must be born of the Spirit (born again) according to Jesus (John 3). That which is born of God will not sin, but that which is born of the flesh is sin. Believers are not redeemed from the corrupt, mortal flesh until Jesus returns. Until then we have the new creature inside that is born of God, and the corrupt flesh, sold under sin, which is born of sinful man. We have a choice to walk in the Spirit, or to walk in the flesh. Walking in the flesh is not profitable, but walking in the Spirit gains rewards eternal in heaven. To walk in the flesh is physically deadly, but the inward, new creation will be redeemed as it is born of God and unable to sin.

Thanks for your post and may God be glorified in our pursuit and proclamation of the truth.

Michael

 

[joyinhim]

We should never give any impression that salvation is so easy and cheap.

Of course Jesus is inviting everyone to accept His gift and of course it's free.

At the same time once, we accept His free gift He is giving us a lot of responsibilities. If are not willing to take responsibilities we will not change.

If we are not willing to give up our old ways we will not change.

According to the Bible, if we don't change we are not a new creation and we cannot we say we are saved.

Could you please give references that you allude to in your statement according to the Bible. Thank you.

How do you accept Jesus' free gift? and What happens to a person after accepting the free gift?

What responsibilities do we have after accepting the free gift?

I do agree with you in that believers must give up their old ways after they have received the free gift of salvation.

solo

How long have you been a Christian? Do I have to quote everything that I say? If you think I am not telling the truth, which part is it?.

Our responsibility is that we keep our promiss we made when we accepted Him as Lord: we keep His commandmants and follow His teachings..

 

[Solo]

We should never give any impression that salvation is so easy and cheap.

Of course Jesus is inviting everyone to accept His gift and of course it's free.

At the same time once, we accept His free gift He is giving us a lot of responsibilities. If are not willing to take responsibilities we will not change.

If we are not willing to give up our old ways we will not change.

According to the Bible, if we don't change we are not a new creation and we cannot we say we are saved.

Could you please give references that you allude to in your statement according to the Bible. Thank you.

How do you accept Jesus' free gift? and What happens to a person after accepting the free gift?

What responsibilities do we have after accepting the free gift?

I do agree with you in that believers must give up their old ways after they have received the free gift of salvation.

solo

How long have you been a Christian? Do I have to quote everything that I say? If you think I am not telling the truth, which part is it?.

Our responsibility is that we keep our promiss we made when we accepted Him as Lord: we keep His commandmants and follow His teachings..

joyinhim,
I have been saved for 22 years after living 28 years without the Lord. How long have you been a Christian? Do you think that it would be helpful to include scripture references when alluding to the Bible? It would be polite and helpful to give Bible references when you make statements such as "according to the Bible...", so that others may read from the Word of God the context and area that you have studied.

I believe that individuals that are allusive in their answers, or they fail to answer specific questionns may be doing so because of deceptive alternatives. Do I think you have lied about anything specific? No. Do I think that you have problems with Churches and its members? Yes. Do I get this from ESP? No, I get this from your posts. Is there a reason why you haven't answered my previous questions? Either you do not have an answer so you ignore the questions, or you feel that an answer would lead to further questions that you really do not want to answer, or ???.

The questions that I have asked which you haven't answered were questions that would further explain the meaning of your previous post.

How do you accept Jesus' free gift? and What happens to a person after accepting the free gift?

What responsibilities do we have after accepting the free gift?

If you do not want to answer these, it is alright. I will determine that they were unimportant to comment on.
Thanks,
Solo