The mess that OSAS theology made

[SputnikBoy]

solo

How long have you been a Christian? Do I have to quote everything that I say? If you think I am not telling the truth, which part is it?

Our responsibility is that we keep our promiss we made when we accepted Him as Lord: We keep His commandmants and follow His teachings.

Perhaps you do have some of what you're saying backwards, joyinhim, I don't know. Maybe you are coming across negatively to some on this thread because of your sincere concern, I don't know that either. I can't really read you or them ...especially them.

Having said that, it does irk me somewhat the rather sanctimonious and pompous manner in which some of the posters are addressing your concerns. You'll often find that those who profess to be 'Spirit-filled' are unable to address posts such as yours in a manner that you can understand. This, in turn (and correct me if I'm wrong), causes you to respond in a defensive manner. You're simply not understanding where they are coming from because their responses are over your head. Is that right?

While not intending to get into this right now, every Christian who consistently and INsistently refers to their being 'Spirit-filled' is generally one who claims to speak in 'tongues'. So, from the start, they claim a behavior that is unscriptural. And, it's for this reason that I question everything they have to say from then on. You're right, joyinhim (even though your manner of putting it across might need a little bit of work) that a Christian WILL obey God's commands without question. As we're told in the Bible, the commandments are written on the Christian's heart. We really shouldn't need to be debating issues of obedience to begin with. It should be a given.

The 'Spirit-filled' Christian hates God's commandments because they see them as something that convicts. They have no idea that obedience to God's commands does the exact opposite. And they will argue against the commandments until kingdom come ...regardless of the fact that the scriptures are glaringly clear in regard to obedience to them for all who love Jesus. They bring up truckloads of scripture to supposedly support their own case while they totally ignore scriptures such as, "If you love me, keep my commandments." We could stop at that scripture and move on.

They (the 'Spirit-filled') have already seriously misinterpreted Paul in regard to 'tongues' and other supposed 'gifts of the Spirit'; indeed, they have made major doctrines out of them. Therefore, one needs to be very cautious whenever a proclaimed 'Spirit-filled' person opens his/her mouth to preach scriptural truths. This doesn't necessarily make them bad people or unChristian people but it does bring their belief system into serious question, if not into disrepute.

 

[Imagican]

Really? No scriptual back up huh? Are we on the same boards?

It seems you also don't understand the theology either. Oh well!

Good luck keeping yourself saved - you're gonna need it ;)

Merry, Merry. Such hostility. Just because I don't accept your theology doesn't make me a 'bad' guy.

You are absolutely right though. Perhaps I don't completely understand the theology behind OSAS. No matter how you put it, I still believe that there are those that are capable of loosing their salvation by simply denouncing it the same way they accepted it. You have to hold onto what you have in order to keep it and there are and certainly will be those that refuse the gift even after it's already been given.

I have dealt with this idea on many occasions with many different denominations that hold fast to such beliefs and they are just as hard-headed as those that speak in tongues and slap each other on the foreheads to heal each other.

I once had a pentecostal minister get mad at me for pointing out the difference in his teachings and practices concerning tongues and their uses compared to the rules laid down by Paul. I said, "Paul, (his name was Paul), you know apostle Paul explained to us the proper use of tongues and that's completely different that what you are doing here". He said, "I know". I looked at him with a dumb-founded look and his next reply was even more shocking. He then said, "You know Mike, (that's my name), maybe you should find a different place to worship". I said, "You know, you're right". And I did.

On another occasion I got into a debate about tongues and the member that I was discussing with told me, "I don't care what it says, the tongues I speak are real", (refereing to the Bible of course).

Now, if these examples are not classic examples of pure 'hard-headedness', I don't know what would be.

OSAS associates that I've encountered over the years are just as adamant with their view of this fallacy. They offer NO scripture that supports this view and then get mad if you try to tell them that.

Merry, there's is a parable that Jesus offered, I would offer that you read it and then get back with me on what you think it is refereing to. Do this for me please?

It's the one about the man that cleaned up his house. I'm sure you are familiar with it, but read it again and then tell me what it means to you, OK? Thanks.

MEC

 

[joyinhim]

sput. I am not trying wim a popularity contest here. I speak what I believe God wants me to speak. If you don't believe I am following Jesus teaching or what ever it is you have against me we just have to wait for His Jusgement.

What makes you think I don't have the right to speak my convictions?

I aill not accept anyone else's judgement but God's.

I realize what I have been protesting in an unconventional church way.

But have you thought that old way is not doing any good but is harming His name? Why do you want to continue old dysfunctional ways?

I am His servant and I have right to speak for Him too.

 

[Solo]

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18-19

 

[Imagican]

It would certainly be a comforting thought to believe that all I have to do is 'say' I believe in Christ and I'm saved.

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." Matthew 21:22

I can pick a fault in nearly every Christian denomination which contradicts the bible, yet do I throw away that WHICH IS Christ, so that none will believe on him in any way, shape or form contrary to what I believe?

Saying you believe in Christ and you are always saved by Him; is the kind of salvation no-one knows the success of, save Christ himself. Does Christ make it a habit of punishing those who possess faith alone? How ungodly is it to preach that Christ saves and keeps his believers always - that they are not plucked out of his hand?

My suggestion to the original poster is that your comments about OSAS are based on WRATH and not the spirit of God. For if it was, it would speak of that WHICH IS Christ and discern only errors of the scriptural understanding. To simply say you are upset by one (or more) who believe in OSAS and then project that into the understanding of OSAS itself; is to deny Christ.

Do you offer someone their salvation by saying they do not possibly believe in Christ? Or do you start with faith?

Klee Shay,

So, you too choose to throw out all the other scripture that is contrary to this belief?

And let me make it perfectly clear: I am not upset at Merry at all.

And, once again you have taken one line of scripture and quote it as it's a separate piece of the Bible. Do you really believe that satanist get what ever they pray for and believe? This line of scripture only has relevance in context, NOT SET ALONE.

And I will contend once again, this is the same kind of view point that Christ also speaks about in another place in Matt. It's the part about luke-warm Christians. Those that would like to profess Christ as their savior, but do nothing that he asked of them except offer words. Faith without works is
D E A D.

So, the indication here would be that you could have all the faith in the world in the beginning of your walk and back it up with love. Later, you could decide that living for yourself is more important to you than living for God and your neighbor. Obviously at this point your faith has faltered, yes?

So, who is Christ talking about when he speaks of those bragging about all the wonderful things that they've done in His name? OSAS perhaps? Those that believe that no matter what they do, or how they live they are saved simply by stating it?

And what kind of Christian would teach others that NO MATTER WHAT, all they have to do is profess Christ as their savior and then they can go about business as usual without any concerns of Christ Himself or God? Not a very stable foundation guys.

I haven't read all the pages from here yet, but I certainly will as soon as I post this. Hopefully I will find what has been completely ignored so far in this thread: I have been reminded on more than one occasion that I obviously don't understand OSAS theology. The parts of OSAS that I don't understand which so conveniently haven't been offered up to this point.

It's kind of like Russell deciding to write 'hell' out of the Bible because he didn't like the thought of a vengeful God. Come on man, you can't have it God's way and your way too. It's either God as your Master or someone or something else. Can't have it both ways. Sorry.

 

[Imagican]

I think joyinhim has made his stance on OSAS ( that's Once Saved Always Saved) pretty clear.

Not that any of it is biblical.

I would think anyone who does even the most cursory of Bible Studies would find there no basis for losing your salvation once you have accepted Christ.

The only verse that could possibly support joyinhim's position is Luke 12:10 concerning blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Yet, since it is the Holy Spirit that places us in union with Christ for eternity, to commit such blasphemy would be to deny that one is a Christian.

You know, they say that statistically about three fifths of the 'so-called' Christian community have never fully read the Bible. For you to offer this ridiculous statement indicates that you may be one of these.

My point? There are tons of scripture warning us against being lazy Christians, or even 'bad' ones. Paul says to run the race as if you mean to win it. Not, 'just join in for the sake of a cheap Wednesday supper'.

 

[SputnikBoy]

sput. I am not trying wim a popularity contest here. I speak what I believe God wants me to speak. If you don't believe I am following Jesus teaching or what ever it is you have against me we just have to wait for His Jusgement.

What makes you think I don't have the right to speak my convictions?

I aill not accept anyone else's judgement but God's.

I realize what I have been protesting in an unconventional church way.

But have you thought that old way is not doing any good but is harming His name? Why do you want to continue old dysfunctional ways?

I am His servant and I have right to speak for Him too.

Good grief! Was my post over your head too, joyinhim? I mean this kindly, but you really DO need to read and comprehend these posts a little better than you are doing. I'm on your side - basically - even though we're coming at it from different perspectives. I DO believe that God's commandments are still binding for Christians today. I DON'T go along with the 'airy-fairy' and often scripturally incorrect beliefs of the proclaimed 'Spirit-filled' Christians. They seem to be floating on a cloud, halo endowed, playing a harp already and their posts read similarly.

I'll stop here in case I dig myself into a deeper hole with you but I suggest you re-read my previous post. I'M ON YOUR SIDE. :roll:

 

[Imagican]

joyinhim,
Thanks for the response. While I appreciate the time it took to respond you did not answer my question. Here it is again.

What exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the OSAS theology?

I would still ask for Biblical reasoning.
The reason I ask this is I need to verify what you say with Gods word. If I can't verify it then how do I know what you are saying is coming from God and not just your opinion?

I hope this makes sense.

I haven't read any further yet, but let ME offer this: The Bible!!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Really? No scriptual back up huh? Are we on the same boards?

It seems you also don't understand the theology either. Oh well!

Good luck keeping yourself saved - you're gonna need it ;)

Merry, Merry. Such hostility. Just because I don't accept your theology doesn't make me a 'bad' guy.

Where did I call you a bad guy? Are you a bad guy? Should I be worried about something? :wink:

You are absolutely right though. Perhaps I don't completely understand the theology behind OSAS. No matter how you put it, I still believe that there are those that are capable of loosing their salvation by simply denouncing it the same way they accepted it. You have to hold onto what you have in order to keep it and there are and certainly will be those that refuse the gift even after it's already been given.

Yes but what you're suggesting makes it seem like you think that Man has more power than God to undo the work of God. Can't you see? The phrase "simply by denouncing" seems to allude to the fact that 'salvation' is cheap and can simply be denounced like it was a piece of chocolate cake or something.

But can I ask one question here? Can I ask how a 'new creation' in Christ who desires the things of God (God gives us his desires) can even WANT to denouce God?

I have dealt with this idea on many occasions with many different denominations that hold fast to such beliefs and they are just as hard-headed as those that speak in tongues and slap each other on the foreheads to heal each other.

The same can be said for any denomination. I may seem pretty hardheaded myself, but that's because of the spiritual journey I had to go through to get here. I didn't just wake up one day and start thinking this way - I fought it for a looooooooong time. I really believed that I was going to go to hell for the majority of my chrisitian walk - do you know what that feels like?

I once had a pentecostal minister get mad at me for pointing out the difference in his teachings and practices concerning tongues and their uses compared to the rules laid down by Paul. I said, "Paul, (his name was Paul), you know apostle Paul explained to us the proper use of tongues and that's completely different that what you are doing here". He said, "I know". I looked at him with a dumb-founded look and his next reply was even more shocking. He then said, "You know Mike, (that's my name), maybe you should find a different place to worship". I said, "You know, you're right". And I did.

Ha ha - good thing you did! Actually I really do believe that there are some pastors around who only preach what they preach because if they don't then they don't really know what they would do if they had to stand down as a pastor. So they continue to lie - even thought they know it's a lie. Sad but true!

On another occasion I got into a debate about tongues and the member that I was discussing with told me, "I don't care what it says, the tongues I speak are real", (refereing to the Bible of course).

Yeh well - I grew up with stuff like that...so.....I kinda know the type you're referring to

Now, if these examples are not classic examples of pure 'hard-headedness', I don't know what would be.

I don't know about hardheadedness - but they are deceived for sure. It comes with the fact that they are in 'religious' denominations and have been indoctrinated. Lucky for me, I'm not one of the

OSAS associates that I've encountered over the years are just as adamant with their view of this fallacy. They offer NO scripture that supports this view and then get mad if you try to tell them that.

Well I can ;)

Merry, there's is a parable that Jesus offered, I would offer that you read it and then get back with me on what you think it is refereing to. Do this for me please?

It's the one about the man that cleaned up his house. I'm sure you are familiar with it, but read it again and then tell me what it means to you, OK? Thanks.

Can you tell me where it is please?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

sput. I am not trying wim a popularity contest here. I speak what I believe God wants me to speak. If you don't believe I am following Jesus teaching or what ever it is you have against me we just have to wait for His Jusgement.

What makes you think I don't have the right to speak my convictions?

I aill not accept anyone else's judgement but God's.

I realize what I have been protesting in an unconventional church way.

But have you thought that old way is not doing any good but is harming His name? Why do you want to continue old dysfunctional ways?

I am His servant and I have right to speak for Him too.

But sweetie, that's what you're doing to us though. You're judging us - like you are God or something. Do you realise that that's what you're doing? Can you even see how you come across to us? Especially when you throw around accusations with no scriptural backing or knowledge about what you are arguing.

It really doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[Imagican]

Ok guys, I got a good one for ya, (gals too). Was Judas Baptized? I mean, do you believe that he was. I mean, here's these stories about all the people that were being baptized by the disciples of Jesus, do you reckon that Judas was baptized? Was he saved? Did he eventually turn his back on Christ for a few pieces of silver? Was his salvation eternal?

Just a little food for thought.

Like on another thread where I brought up the concept of demons. There were many responses that a 'true' Christian couldn't be influenced by demons. Funny, but I would venture to say that Christians are those that the demons exert more energy towards than anyone else. Most people living in and for the world don't need a lot of influence to follow their will. It would be those that have an understanding of God and Christ that would be most tempted. That would be the main reason that we are warned to put on the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD. Otherwise we open ourselves to disobedience and outside influence.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

He was the son of perdition! Note the word 'son' is singular

 

[Solo]

If Judas was born again he is forgiven and saved. If he was not born again, he is lost. I believe that Judas was born again and is saved based on his proclaiming that Jesus was innocent, and that he repented.

1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me. Matthew 27:1-10

 

[Imagican]

Merry,

Luke 11:26 was the story that I referred to. Or Matthew 12:43, whichever you prefer. And I didn't really mean to direct it at only you, but would like for any to jump in and offer their opinion on what this means.

From what I've gathered from those that seem to support this OSAS, I think that they themselves have indicated that their own theology is a bit askew. Instead of OSAS, they should be teaching and preaching ISAS, (if saved, always saved). I would be much more inclined to partially agree with this kind of teaching than OSAS. Even then, I would have to disagree with the 'always' part.

Much like the disciple that asked Christ what he needed to do to receive what Christ spoke of and went away saddened after given the answer, I believe that there are many that confess Christ as their Savior, yet don't even know Him. Some of these people insist that they are 'saved' and know that they are going to heaven when they die, yet wouldn't waste thirty seconds of their precious day to help someone in need. I don't know about you, but this seems totally contradictory to EVERYTHING Christ offered.

If this is being a Christian, then what kind example is their testimony to those that are yet saved? The problem, from my point of view, is that many of the people whom I refer, I find to be supporters of this OSAS. And this they hold to as adamantly as those that insist that I must speak in tongues in order to exhibit baptism of the Holy Spirit. It seems as if by accepting this doctrine they then become immune from the love that Christ commanded of them and thus can continue to live their lives for themselves, ignoring that which is God: Love. They preach that no matter what, they are forgiven.

If James Jones had preached this OSAS, or David Koresh, would their words have made it so? Do you folks believe that J. J. was saved? And if so in the beginning, do you believe that God has forgiven him for murder and suicide of those they led astray?

What OSAS offers 'sounds' really, really good. Like a spiritual ear-candy of sorts. But when you start breaking it down and comparing it to what is 'truly' offered in the word, I don't think it stands up or holds fast to that which Christ or His apostles offered.

And you guys have continually asked 'me' for scripture and such to back up my opinions. I asked previous why none of you who profess this belief have offered the parts that you continuously accuse me of not understanding. Please, by all means, let's hear it. Tell me what it is that I don't understand about this theology. Explain it to me in a way that I can understand it the better.

So far as I see it, OSAS is self-explanatory. If not, please let me in on the secret part that I don't understand. Please?

 

[AVBunyan]

Insane asylum

1.

You don't seem to understand the OSAS theology.

She (I assume) does not understand justification - blinded to it.

All I know is that they are misleading people and made disaster with their theology. Shame on them!

You mean people like: Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson, Thomas Boston, CH Spurgeion, Christopher Love, JC Riley, AW Pink, John Newton, Isaac Watts, etc. You mean the greatest writers and theologians in the last 400 years have mislead people with their theology? :o
I'm willing to bet the crowd you run with have never really read the likes of these men - you couldn't stay with them for more than 2 pages!!

You mean the greatest missionaries ever (all mostly Calvanists and grace believers) like John Paton, William Carry, David Brainard, Elliot, etc. misled those natives and heathen with their message? :o

And the people who are vehemently against OSAS like Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Ken Hagan and CO., Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Coplin, Osteen, PTL crowd, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, etc. are setting people straight with their damnable theologies? :o

America is an insane asylum run by the inmates!!!!

 

[AVBunyan]

I believe that Judas was born again and is saved based on his proclaiming that Jesus was innocent, and that he repented.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was a devil - devils don't get saved. Judas went to is own place - not to heaven.

Sinners, and especially devils, do not get saved by proclaiming and repenting - hense teis coffusion over OSAS.

Until you folks get straight on how the sinner is justified before God these OSAS threads will go on till the great white throne. :-?

God bless

 

[joyinhim]

I believe that Judas was born again and is saved based on his proclaiming that Jesus was innocent, and that he repented.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was a devil - devils don't get saved. Judas went to is own place - not to heaven.

Sinners, and especially devils, do not get saved by proclaiming and repenting - hense teis coffusion over OSAS.

Until you folks get straight on how the sinner is justified before God these OSAS threads will go on till the great white throne. :-?

God bless

AVbanion,

If you can explain why you are misleading thousands and thousands of church goers I start to learn you theology.

So far, your fruit of theology is nothing but disgracing His name. Shame on you!

My separated husband and oldest son is following your theology without fruit of their faith. I believe they are heading for hell if they don't change their attitudes.

I have been Christian only for 7 years. I stayed away from Jesus because of most church goers' obvious hypocricy.

Jesus commands us to be "salt and light in the world".

When do you start preaching the all of His teaching?

If your pastors have been true to Him they would preach the obedience to Him instead of false assurance.

And don't mix us with the prosperity churches. I know for the fact that most of them follow your theology too. I attended two of the Prosprity(tongue speaking) churches. Stop false accusation.

You theology is misleading and making them believe what we do don't matter.

If we are Jesus' followers, how can we believe this nonsence? It's beyond my comprehension. :evil:

 

[AVBunyan]

AVbanion,
1. If you can explain why you are misleading thousands and thousands of church goers I start to learn you theology.

2. My separated husband and oldest son is following your theology without fruit of their faith. I believe they are heading for hell if they don't change their attitudes.

1. I don't have to explain nothin' to you and will not even bother - thank you. If you want to know where I stand just search my posts.

2. After reading your posts why do I get the feeling that I may understand why you and your husband are separated - I bet you blame him don't you. How do I know you are not just being a rebellious and disobedient wife?

 

[PHIL121]

I think it says something about the stateof the Church is that so many Christians make such a big deal about Once Saved, Always Saved.

Not to mention the fact there are so many who believe Christ's work of Salvation is not completed.

THAT shows a definte lack of Faith.

 

[joyinhim]

AVbanion,
1. If you can explain why you are misleading thousands and thousands of church goers I start to learn you theology.

2. My separated husband and oldest son is following your theology without fruit of their faith. I believe they are heading for hell if they don't change their attitudes.

1. I don't have to explain nothin' to you and will not even bother - thank you. If you want to know where I stand just search my posts.

2. After reading your posts why do I get the feeling that I may understand why you and your husband are separated - I bet you blame him don't you. How do I know you are not just being a rebellious and disobedient wife?

You will use anything to make excuses don't you? Did I say any about blaiming? Is that how you learned from the Bible? You are making your case weaker and weaker.

Show me where I blamed my husband for what?