The mess that OSAS theology made

[farley]

Solo wrote:
I believe that Judas was born again and is saved based on his proclaiming that Jesus was innocent, and that he repented.

And...

AVBunyan wrote:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was a devil - devils don't get saved. Judas went to is own place - not to heaven.

Sinners, and especially devils, do not get saved by proclaiming and repenting - hense teis coffusion over OSAS.

Until you folks get straight on how the sinner is justified before God these OSAS threads will go on till the great white throne.

God bless

Solo...Your comment above does seem to conflict with OSAS as I see it proclaimed!

I'm still wading through the passages which you referenced, especially Romans 7, trying to verify your interpretations. However, it does seem to me that an act of repentance would pretty much nullify OSAS.

AVBunyan...I'm glad to see your posts here again!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote:
I believe that Judas was born again and is saved based on his proclaiming that Jesus was innocent, and that he repented.

And...

[quote:01ba1]AVBunyan wrote:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was a devil - devils don't get saved. Judas went to is own place - not to heaven.

Sinners, and especially devils, do not get saved by proclaiming and repenting - hense teis coffusion over OSAS.

Until you folks get straight on how the sinner is justified before God these OSAS threads will go on till the great white throne.

God bless

Solo...Your comment above does seem to conflict with OSAS as I see it proclaimed!

I'm still wading through the passages which you referenced, especially Romans 7, trying to verify your interpretations. However, it does seem to me that an act of repentance would pretty much nullify OSAS.

AVBunyan...I'm glad to see your posts here again!

In Christ,

farley[/quote:01ba1]
If Judas was born again he is saved, if he wasn't born again he is lost. I think that it is possible that Judas was born again, but I will find out when I arrive at the feet of Jesus. Judas was repentent after knowing Jesus was condemned to death, and he knew Jesus was innocent. How could an unrepentent unbeliever not born of God recognize that Jesus was innocent of sin unless he knew him. It is possible however that Judas had a devil that kept him from believing and being born again, but I won't know for sure until Jesus returns. By then I probably won't even care.

Repentence is an everyday action for all believers and does not nullify OSAS at all. Once a person is born again, he has a battle within his members to walk according to the flesh or walk according to the Spirit. When a believer sins after walking in the flesh, it is necessary to repent and confess sins, not for salvation, but for a right relationship and fellowship with God and others.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Joyinhim - so you have a personal problem with OSAS hey? You stand there and point the finger at everyone else saying that they are not representitive of christianity because they subscribe to the OSAS theology EVEN YOUR OWN SON!

But may I remind you - that when you have 1 finger pointing out at someone - there are three pointing straight back at ya honey!

Maybe you should pay attention to your own walk with God and leave everyone else for God to judge.

 

[farley]

Solo,

You stated...

If Judas was born again he is saved, if he wasn't born again he is lost.

I'm not sure of the time line of the actual events, but if Judas died before Christ was crucified, then wouldn't his soul be subject to the Law of Moses?

Even if he was born again, the New Covenant was yet to be established, right? The church did not exist before the cross, did it?

More grist for the mill!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You stated...

If Judas was born again he is saved, if he wasn't born again he is lost.

I'm not sure of the time line of the actual events, but if Judas died before Christ was crucified, then wouldn't his soul be subject to the Law of Moses?

Even if he was born again, the New Covenant was yet to be established, right? The church did not exist before the cross, did it?

More grist for the mill!

In Christ,

farley

That is a great question. Were any of the disciples born again? I did not see them do anything but wait 40 days until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled them. Since Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God, did he mean at that time or after he was crudified and resurrected?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Jesus did breath on his disciples though and said 'receive ye the HOly Spirit' so I don't know if this is significant to the discussion or not.

 

[Imagican]

That is a great question. Were any of the disciples born again? I did not see them do anything but wait 40 days until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled them. Since Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God, did he mean at that time or after he was crucified and resurrected?


Come on guys. I thought that it was obvious from the time that the Jews were aware that the Savior was coming that there was redemption from sin through their belief in Him before He was even born. Faith is faith regardless of when or where. Believing that God was sending a Savior is the same as believing in the Savior. The only thing that changed with the Jewish faith is that they lost it. After the Savior was come, most refused to accept Him. Previous to that those that had faith in God's word believed upon Christ before He was born.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Well that's true too - they looked forward to the cross while we look back to the cross. But they weren't born again or regenerated and so didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. However, as I said, Jesus did breath on them...so maybe they did have the Holy Spirit?

 

[cj]

The Holy Spirit that comes to dwell in the regenerated spirit of a born-again person is the Spirit of Life, which is Christ Himself as the Spirit.

This is what occured when Jesus breathed on the disciples, and this is the promise that only those believers under the new covenant of God receive even as they live.

Jesus went through a process pf incarnation, human living, death, burial, resurrection, ascenscion, and has come again as the Spirit to dwell in believers. This Spirit was "not yet" prior to the completion of the entire process through which Jesus went.

What few believers fully realize is that God Himself, in the Son, took Himself through a process so that He could enter into men and thus save us.

Prior to God going through this process there was no way for God to enter into men, in the sense that is necessary for man's full and eternal redemption.


Farley,....

The old covenant ended when Jesus was born, for God was now with men.

Jesus Himself asked, "Which is greater, the sacrifice or the altar that sanctifies the sacrifice?"

The answer is the altar is greater. And why? Because the altar is of God.

In the same way Jesus was greater than the law for the law was of Him.

Jesus did not speak with the authority of one who knows the law, He spoke with the authority of the One who gave the law.

To be born-again a person must receive a regenerated (new) spirit; one in which the Spirit of Life, Jesus, has come to dwell.

Those who believed but lived prior to Jesus accomplishing/finishing this process were not born-again but could have been saved and thus will have eternal life.

This is what the different dispensations represent, different economies of God according to His present need.

Believer today are very blessed as we will receive something that other believers could only see from afar.

Abraham only saw what we now possess.


In love,
cj

 

[Klee shay]

Klee Shay,

So, you too choose to throw out all the other scripture that is contrary to this belief?

Implying it simply doesn't make it true. I haven't thrown-out anything of relevance that belongs to Christ. A walk with Christ does not automatically mean you start at the final destination. Please give our Lord room to move in one of his believers.

And, once again you have taken one line of scripture and quote it as it's a separate piece of the Bible. Do you really believe that satanist get what ever they pray for and believe? This line of scripture only has relevance in context, NOT SET ALONE.

A satanist won't even pick up the bible to understand the message Christ has given a believer. Let alone pray for something in "Jesus" name. So the point you have made is rather mute. That is if we have the same understanding of what a satanist is - being possessed by a devil and sworn to oppose everything that is of the Son of God.

Even though Christ said, "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." Matthew 21:22 specifically to his Apostles regarding a miracle he had just performed; it is no less important for an ordinary believer to understand as true.

Do you yourself, often pray "not believing" and yet exepecting to receeive?

And I will contend once again, this is the same kind of view point that Christ also speaks about in another place in Matt. It's the part about luke-warm Christians. Those that would like to profess Christ as their savior, but do nothing that he asked of them except offer words. Faith without works is D E A D.

Why can't someone who believes in OSAS also work? Why do the two concepts automatically have to oppose each other? I happen to believe Christ is keeping me (OSAS) while I also work for Christ. I don't stop following Christ in my walk because I feel my salvation rests in his hands. I walk towards him and work for his purpose because I no longer feel threatened to fight for what is already mine - given to me on the cross.

So, the indication here would be that you could have all the faith in the world in the beginning of your walk and back it up with love. Later, you could decide that living for yourself is more important to you than living for God and your neighbor. Obviously at this point your faith has faltered, yes?

When DOESN'T faith falter my friend? It happens to everyone of every religion because man simply cannot be perfect. Christ was perfect which is why he came. Trying our hardest is not going to make us PERFECT.

Can you tell me that you've never-ever-ever doubted your faith once? Or even been tempted to?

So, who is Christ talking about when he speaks of those bragging about all the wonderful things that they've done in His name? OSAS perhaps? Those that believe that no matter what they do, or how they live they are saved simply by stating it?

People who believe in the concept of OSAS are not exluded from the Lord's words of wisdom; but it would be foolish to think they are exclusive. Anyone is capable of being a braggart.

You speak the truth of our Lord - I do not deny his words of truth but you seem to be the only one willing to cast dispersions of who he is talking about? Are we not all capable?

And what kind of Christian would teach others that NO MATTER WHAT, all they have to do is profess Christ as their savior and then they can go about business as usual without any concerns of Christ Himself or God? Not a very stable foundation guys.

What kind of Christian? My guess is someone who trusts Christ. You seem to imply that ALL people have to do is believe Christ is their Saviour and that's it! Why is that it? Where is the trust one has and the confidence to pursue his work because of it? Where is the love one feels when they are serving Jesus?

You judge people by the concept of OSAS theology, yet you know nothing about what they're doing with Christ. The idea is that you are grateful for what Christ has done for you - even though you didn't really deserve it; and you serve him out of love.

I haven't read all the pages from here yet, but I certainly will as soon as I post this. Hopefully I will find what has been completely ignored so far in this thread: I have been reminded on more than one occasion that I obviously don't understand OSAS theology. The parts of OSAS that I don't understand which so conveniently haven't been offered up to this point.

I understand that you are on a walk with Christ as well. You cannot start at the final destination he has planned for you.

I wouldn't say the parts of OSAS theology you don't understand yet, has been "conveniently" left out at this point. As you said yourself, you still haven't read all this thread and you wouldn't have read this reply either.

Hopefully if you can learn about the believers who see OSAS as a comfort to their walk with Christ, as opposed to a threat - you will also understand that not all believers will use OSAS as a lazy-man's religion.

It's kind of like Russell deciding to write 'hell' out of the Bible because he didn't like the thought of a vengeful God. Come on man, you can't have it God's way and your way too. It's either God as your Master or someone or something else. Can't have it both ways. Sorry.

It may be the same thing to you, but I see no similarity.

A walk is still a walk and we still have much to learn.

 

[PHIL121]

I see someone is fogeting how Christians are "grafted into the Olive Tree".

The old covenant ended when Jesus was born, for God was now with men.

cj

No, the Old Covenant didn't end with Jesus. He fullfilled it and by doing so offered Salvation to all. Christians are grafted into the Old Covenant through his Sacrifice

 

[Guest]

OSAS is a complete joke, Jesus didn't teach it, but Paul did. Problem number 1,, what angel did Paul really see on the road to Damascus?

Number 2, most pastors and churches are in apostate, if you believe what the apostle paul syas, if any anegl or anything preaches a different gospel than the one you recieved, well Jesus never taught this pathetic doctrine. Look around you, all these protestant churches care about is how much it cost to mke there building and how many more people they have than the next church. If Christ does return, he will pay a visit to these preachers of a perverted gospel first.

James Dobson being candidate number 1 with his political movement that he disguises as christianity, this guy is and most of the "christian" politicians are disgusting to listen to, they think they are so high and mighty. I hate to think I used to be that wya also, just because Im a christian Im better than the next person.

 

[Solo]

OSAS is a complete joke, Jesus didn't teach it, but Paul did. Problem number 1,, what angel did Paul really see on the road to Damascus?

Number 2, most pastors and churches are in apostate, if you believe what the apostle paul syas, if any anegl or anything preaches a different gospel than the one you recieved, well Jesus never taught this pathetic doctrine. Look around you, all these protestant churches care about is how much it cost to mke there building and how many more people they have than the next church. If Christ does return, he will pay a visit to these preachers of a perverted gospel first.

James Dobson being candidate number 1 with his political movement that he disguises as christianity, this guy is and most of the "christian" politicians are disgusting to listen to, they think they are so high and mighty. I hate to think I used to be that wya also, just because Im a christian Im better than the next person.

You still seem to have that "I am better than the next person"; you have just pointed your anger towards Christians now instead of non-Christians. You must have really been hurt by some folks back when, and have taken a fall through the cracks. I am sorry that some are really battered by various ones and circumstances. Jesus is able to take the yoke from you and pull it instead of yourself, if you let him. Good luck, pardner.

Jesus did not teach that you had to believe in OSAS to be saved, he taught that one must be born of God to access the Kingdom of God. Read John 3 where he is talking to Nicodemus.

 

[Guest]

Have taken a fall to make me think like this, just started studying religions from the 1st century on and it has opened my eyes, if you really go back to the time of christ and read and study religions adding christainity, you will see that it is impossible for the 20th and 21 century christian to be like this in the first 2 or 3 centuries with this OSAS doctrine, these people died daily for Jesus, you think they sat around and played luke warm christainity and said ohh, Im going to heaven either way? Really open your eyes and try to place yourself in ther 1 st century and continue to the present age looking carefully at each century

 

[AVBunyan]

Really open your eyes and try to place yourself in ther 1 st century and continue to the present age looking carefully at each century

So, do you think your works will be sufficient?

What are you counting on to get you into glory?

 

[Klee shay]

OSAS is a complete joke, Jesus didn't teach it, but Paul did. Problem number 1,, what angel did Paul really see on the road to Damascus?

Is it wise to cast dispersions on the miracles in the bible? I believe Paul was a teacher of grace not specifically OSAS concepts. He spoke equally that man can be kept in the spirit of Christ; and that man can waiver also - being tempted by the world, desires, etc.

I hope your fall will see you back on your feet again soon. :D

 

[Guest]

Really open your eyes and try to place yourself in ther 1 st century and continue to the present age looking carefully at each century

So, do you think your works will be sufficient?

What are you counting on to get you into glory?

Show me where in the OT, there is any mention to Hell? This is a NT teaching.

 

[Imagican]

DD,

You asked for it:

Deut 32:22
2 Sa 22:6
Job 11:8, 26:6
Ps 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8
Prov 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11, 15:24, 23:14, 27:20
Is 5:14, 14:9, 14:15, 28:15, 28:18, 57:9
Eze 31:16, 31:17, 32:21, 32:27
Amos 9:2
Jonah 2:2
Hab 2:5

Boy, that's quite a bit for there to be "no" mention of it.

 

[Imagican]

Guys,

From the time of David there were those that were able to look to the past and understand that even Moses had spoke of a Savior that was to come. And certainly those after were waiting. That's why there is so much of the OT used in the NT to justify the personage of Christ. Why do you think that it was SO important for those that found Him to announce WHO He was? Christ is WAY MORE than is being given credit here.

As far as we know, the SPIRIT of Christ was BEFORE man. If this is the case then there were certainly those that could have believed upon Him under the name Emanuel and benefited from what He would do before it was even done. The Spirit existed long before the man, (Jesus).

There is scripture that indicates that before His death the Spirit was not among us yet. This is not the "whole" truth though. The Spirit was among those that followed God's will from the beginning of man. You don't really believe that man was given the evidence of Christs' coming hundreds of years before His birth for no reason do you? If you look back at almost EVERYTHING done for the Hebrews/Jews, you will plainly see that it was all a precursor to the coming of Christ. Man commanded to sacrifice for sin, Abraham commanded to sacrifice his son, the sacrificial lambs blood over doorways, etc.....etc......etc.......The Spirit was certainly among us long before the man Christ was.

 

[Imagican]

DD,

I rather shudder myself at your delivery, but there is credence to what you offer. We are told that there is NO GREATER act that we could produce than to offer our life for our brother out of love. You see too clearly what was required of our examples in Christ of the past. Yes, we have certainly veered massively from that which is expected. OSAS is certainly, (in my opinion), not helping ANYONE get back to where we were supposed to have started from, but it certainly is more of a symptom rather than the cause.