The mess that OSAS theology made

[joyinhim]

farly,

You are right. There are a lot of warnings against halfhearted Christianity.

thank you for your input.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

They all work in harmony with the OSAS doctrine.

Just one question though Farley? God being an all knowing and all powerful God who doesn't make mistakes, do you REALLY believe that the 'book of life' is a literal book that he has that has the names of all the christians in there and he omits names, then puts them back...then omits them again? Please remember that God knows the future. Do you really think that book of life is LITERAL?

The Lord chastises and warns his children who he loves - the warnings in the bible is one of the ways in which he does this. Much like we do with our children - only God is a PERFECT parent and he's able to keep us safe better than we can. It's a way in which he keeps us. Therefore OSAS still stands.

I could say the same to you though Farley, a lot of scripture has to be ignored by the 'saved one day not the next' crowd. How do you explain all the scripture about God keeping us from falling and not losing sheep etc?

 

[Klee shay]

Am I to understand the only argument to be used against OSAS is that some will be lost? Where does OSAS deny this - please show me. OSAS applies to the "believer" not the non-believer. There are many processes which will sort the wheat from the chaff and not all known by man.

I will agree to every passage that claims some will be lost. Does that make OSAS redudant for everyone then? What about those that won't fall away? OSAS doesn't apply to them I suppose. I suppose for one minute they didn't believe that Christ would keep them - guide their footsteps, etc?

They are allowed their salvation I guess because they didn't believe Christ would save them - always? What kind of twisted logic is that. You can only believe in Jesus if you don't believe in OSAS?

 

[joyinhim]

kre shey,

I am sure you already argued about this in another OSAS thread. I am fighting against OSAS from another point of view which is the result of your theology.

 

[Khristeeanos]

I understand the OSAS doctrine because I believed it for a while.

I no longer believe it, but I also disagree that we have to "keep" ourselves saved.

That is the work of God.

Salvation is by grace through faith in baptism for good works.

The faith is the only thing that is required of us.

And I believe that faith is rejectable later on, as is evident upon reading about the lives of many people in the Bible, specifically reading the letters to Timothy.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Faith is a gift from God.

The Lord doesn't lose sheep. Our salvation is gauranteed, because it's the work of God not us.

 

[Klee shay]

I am sure you already argued about this in another OSAS thread. I am fighting against OSAS from another point of view which is the result of your theology.

Does it matter where I have posted elsewhere. I thought I was contributing to this discussion?

How can it be my theology though? Christ is the foundation of anything I believe - what I possess of any worthiness is not mine. It is not my theology to say that once you "believe" in Christ, he will not leave you powerless, he will keep you and guide your footsteps in his way. It is what Christ Himself has promised all throughout the bible.

OSAS recognises those promises.

Of course, there will be bad people who then take that theology and make it look bad in application; because they are not of God and never will be. Does that make the application of once you "believe" in Christ he will save you, any less valid though?

Are you saying that those Christ has pre-selected will not be saved - always? Where does the Lord's sacrifice actually enter the equation here? Did he die to save mankind or did he not? Did he die despite some will be lost, or did he not really die for that cause?

Christ will save and always does save. How can you argue against that?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I am sure you already argued about this in another OSAS thread. I am fighting against OSAS from another point of view which is the result of your theology.

Does it matter where I have posted elsewhere. I thought I was contributing to this discussion?

How can it be my theology though? Christ is the foundation of anything I believe - what I possess of any worthiness is not mine. It is not my theology to say that once you "believe" in Christ, he will not leave you powerless, he will keep you and guide your footsteps in his way. It is what Christ Himself has promised all throughout the bible.

OSAS recognises those promises.

Of course, there will be bad people who then take that theology and make it look bad in application; because they are not of God and never will be. Does that make the application of once you "believe" in Christ he will save you, any less valid though?

Are you saying that those Christ has pre-selected will not be saved - always? Where does the Lord's sacrifice actually enter the equation here? Did he die to save mankind or did he not? Did he die despite some will be lost, or did he not really die for that cause?

Christ will save and always does save. How can you argue against that?

Good post

 

[SputnikBoy]

I think I know where you're coming from, joyinhim, but you're letting it get to you. This is not helping your take on this issue. I've been there too so I'm not singling you out. It might be helpful, though, if you take a step back and look at the issue from the 'opponent' point of view. Does their take on this issue have any merit at all? Then determine in your mind just WHAT it is about OSAS that YOU believe is wrong. You need to articulate this in a manner where others will know where you're coming from. Now, all I'VE got to do is to practice what I preach!

Anyway, joyinhim, I don't believe that you need to be pressured into supplying scriptures for everything that you really feel is wrong. Some of the very ones who might ask scriptures from you might also be saying that THEY don't require the scriptures since they're being led by the Holy Spirit anyway. Perhaps YOU are no less filled with the Holy Spirit than they are. So, what do YOU see as being the problem with OSAS?

I personally sense an air of flippancy or even cockiness behind the motives of anyone who promotes the expression "Once Saved Always Saved". It seems to be a very selfish expression (and NOT biblical) because those who use it always appear to be talking about themselves. They seem unawares, or perhaps don't care, that there might be other, perhaps less mature Christians, who don't see the OSAS concept as they do.

As I mentioned in my previous post on this issue, the (cheap) OSAS doctrine might be responsible for leading many people astray. Perhaps the Merry Menags' and the Klee shays' should bear these people in mind when they so emphatically promote the OSAS concept. While one is responsible for their own salvation, seekers of Jesus need to be aware from the start that accepting Jesus into their lives will also affect the lives of others around them. Obedience to God is, or surely should be, a by-product of the 'born again' experience. And surely (again) our obedience to God is not something that we hide under a bushel but display it to others. Unfortunately, the promoters of the doctrine of OSAS also regard 'obedience' as an offensive word. And, THIS is the danger I see with with the doctrine of OSAS.

Perhaps in keeping with this and some of the other types of the 'who cares? - I'm saved anyway' theologies of the modern church is this quote from psychologist, Erik Erikson, who observed: "Modern Christianity is an insane asylum run by the inmates."

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I think I know where you're coming from, joyinhim, but you're letting it get to you. This is not helping your take on this issue. I've been there too so I'm not singling you out. It might be helpful, though, if you take a step back and look at the issue from the 'opponent' point of view. Does their take on this issue have any merit at all? Then determine in your mind just WHAT it is about OSAS that YOU believe is wrong. You need to articulate this in a manner where others will know where you're coming from. Now, all I'VE got to do is to practice what I preach!

Thank you Sputnickboy - maybe having someone from her 'side' might help her see why it's hard for us to discuss this issue.

Anyway, joyinhim, I don't believe that you need to be pressured into supplying scriptures for everything that you really feel is wrong. Some of the very ones who might ask scriptures from you might also be saying that THEY don't require the scriptures since they're being led by the Holy Spirit anyway. Perhaps YOU are no less filled with the Holy Spirit than they are. So, what do YOU see as being the problem with OSAS?

Well the Holy Spirit kinda leads to the scripture too though - you know ;) But yes you do make a valid point.

I personally sense an air of flippancy or even cockiness behind the motives of anyone who promotes the expression "Once Saved Always Saved". It seems to be a very selfish expression (and NOT biblical) because those who use it always appear to be talking about themselves. They seem unawares, or perhaps don't care, that there might be other, perhaps less mature Christians, who don't see the OSAS concept as they do.

Well the same could be said for the 'other side' though. I used to believe as you do now and now I look back and find that THAT was selfish in itself. I realise now, looking back, that I was quite arrogant and cocky myself like I had all the answers. Now I know that I don't. I don't have all the answers but Christ does. And I have always given credit to Christ in everything that I do.

As I mentioned in my previous post on this issue, the (cheap) OSAS doctrine might be responsible for leading many people astray.

Nah! Maybe only if it's misunderstood but then, any theology could be misunderstood and lead people astray too.

Perhaps the Merry Menags' and the Klee shays' should bear these people in mind when they so emphatically promote the OSAS concept.

Well I grew up in false doctrine, and had fear shoved down my throat for so long. I was litterally frozen with fear where I stood. I was led astray by the doctrine that insisted that Christ wasn't really a good enough shepherd to keep his sheep and that we are so powerful that we can undo the work of the almighty.

While one is responsible for their own salvation, seekers of Jesus need to be aware from the start that accepting Jesus into their lives will also affect the lives of others around them. Obedience to God is, or surely should be, a by-product of the 'born again' experience. And surely (again) our obedience to God is not something that we hide under a bushel but display it to others. Unfortunately, the promoters of the doctrine of OSAS also regard 'obedience' as an offensive word. And, THIS is the danger I see with with the doctrine of OSAS.

But you see you don't understand either. The bible says "The sheep hear his voice AND THEY FOLLOW HIM". OSAS supporters quote this all the time...what do you think it means?

Perhaps in keeping with this and some of the other types of the 'who cares? - I'm saved anyway' theologies of the modern church is this quote from psychologist, Erik Erikson, who observed: "Modern Christianity is an insane asylum run by the inmates."

Well I actually don't know what you're talking about here - sorry ;)

Anyway, I think maybe I might start using the term 'preservation of the saints' instead of OSAS from now on - do you think that may change people's view on what the theology is always about. Because you know, it's not about doing the wrong thing on purpose and then expecting to go to heaven - that's a fallacy. And I'm sorry there are those who think that this is what we believe in. What it's about is taking the focus of ourselves and putting into onto Christ's perfect ability at keeping his sheep. It's putting our faith on God's power to keep us from falling. The bible clearly teaches this. What most need to be aware of is that there will always be people who will promote whatever doctrine or theology incorrectly - which in turn will reflect badly on everyone else.

 

[Klee shay]

So many assumptons so little evidence.

Once upon a time I used to feel that all Catholics were the sporn of the devil, because my mother was abused at the hand's of a Catholic children's home. So certain was I that it was the Catholic faith which lead to my mother's horrific abuse.

So many assumptions so little evidence.

At the end of the day it was the people who called themselves "Catholic" without adopting the principles of that faith at all; who used a position of trust to hurt little children. The enemy was in the spirit of the person applying the label and not the faith. If their spirit had been based in the truth of Jesus, they wouldn't have been able to commit such crimes.

Are we to do away with all forms of Christianity - condemn it all because mankind is full of people who cannot be trusted with the proper application of the spirit? Then who will be left to teach about the Lord in spirit? When obedience is all that is left between a good Christian and God - the enemy wins one little battle against faith. We believe not because God loves us and dedicated his Son's life to mankind - we beleive because we want to win ourselves back into God's good books.

How much more does God have to offer before we see he has already given his all, in the life of his Son?

When we call upon Christ "believing" he will do what he said he will do, would he turn the believer away? It is more righteous to say the believer did not believe in Christ at all - I knew you not - and people will know as they ARE known.

While the walk with Christ should not merely begin or end with OSAS theology; one should not say that Christ does not save at all in defiance of OSAS...for that throws away His purpose all together.

Root out the "PEOPLE" who misrepresent the promises of Christ our Saviour, in whatever theology they choose; but do not root out the Saviour who's life was dedicated to saving PEOPLE.

 

[farley]

MM,

They all work in harmony with the OSAS doctrine.

Just one question though Farley? God being an all knowing and all powerful God who doesn't make mistakes, do you REALLY believe that the 'book of life' is a literal book that he has that has the names of all the christians in there and he omits names, then puts them back...then omits them again? Please remember that God knows the future. Do you really think that book of life is LITERAL?

Yes, I believe that there is a book of life, a real book! What kind of a Christian would I be if I didn't believe what the Bible says? The Scripture doesn't go into detail on the mechanics of how it will be done. It's OK with me if He waits until Judgement Day, and just uses one blot for each believer who is found wanting.

Are you saying that you don't believe what the Bible says?

The Lord chastises and warns his children who he loves - the warnings in the bible is one of the ways in which he does this. Much like we do with our children - only God is a PERFECT parent and he's able to keep us safe better than we can. It's a way in which he keeps us. Therefore OSAS still stands.

I could say the same to you though Farley, a lot of scripture has to be ignored by the 'saved one day not the next' crowd. How do you explain all the scripture about God keeping us from falling and not losing sheep etc?

I would hate to misinterpret the passages you are trying to reference, MM. Please throw some names and numbers into your comments. After at least six pages of demands for Scriptural references, I would have thought that you would be BIG on clarity.

Klee shay,

Am I to understand the only argument to be used against OSAS is that some will be lost? Where does OSAS deny this - please show me. OSAS applies to the "believer" not the non-believer. There are many processes which will sort the wheat from the chaff and not all known by man.

In my view, the passages I referenced are talking about believers. Why do you indicate that they aren't?

I will agree to every passage that claims some will be lost. Does that make OSAS redudant for everyone then? What about those that won't fall away? OSAS doesn't apply to them I suppose. I suppose for one minute they didn't believe that Christ would keep them - guide their footsteps, etc?

The Scripture tells me that there are obedient Christians, and disobedient Christians. The passages relating to obedient Christians are the passages OSAS are clinging to. They ignore the passages regarding disobedient Christians.

They are allowed their salvation I guess because they didn't believe Christ would save them - always? What kind of twisted logic is that. You can only believe in Jesus if you don't believe in OSAS?

In Christ,

farley

 

[joyinhim]

sput,

thank you for your input.

I have talked many OSAS people and they know the problems. That's why I don't play their games. I am not debating here. I am just expressing my observations which most Christians do not express.

I am sure all they want to do is Scripture fight. You know Scripture debate will not accomplish anything. These kinds of debates are for showing off.

 

[Solo]

Yes, I believe that there is a book of life, a real book! What kind of a Christian would I be if I didn't believe what the Bible says? The Scripture doesn't go into detail on the mechanics of how it will be done. It's OK with me if He waits until Judgement Day, and just uses one blot for each believer who is found wanting.

Are you saying that you don't believe what the Bible says?

farley,
Could being blotted out of the book of life mean that all mankind was written in the book, but only those that are born again will remain and not be blotted out?

In my view, the passages I referenced are talking about believers. Why do you indicate that they aren't?

Does the verse that says that believers are born again with a free gift of eternal life that is sinless because born again creature is the new creature born of God mean anything to you? Does it seem like you could have an error of judgment in your assessment of salvation, in that God is perfect and does not lie; therefore, when he says that we are born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, we are just that, born again freed from the penalty of sin, and sealed unto the day of redemption?

The Scripture tells me that there are obedient Christians, and disobedient Christians. The passages relating to obedient Christians are the passages OSAS are clinging to. They ignore the passages regarding disobedient Christians.

Some of the passages that you cite are passages that describe those that were never born again. Other passages refer to the non-profitability of sin in this life, not salvation. Salvation does not include the corrupt, mortal flesh that we carry around on a day to day basis. Salvation is for the spirit born again of God and the resurrection of the changed body which will be immortal and incorruptible. I do not read anywhere where the child of God is cast into a position where he is condemned again; nor do I find anywhere in the Bible where a soul must be born again two, three, four, a hundred more times everytime a personally defined sin carries him away.

 

[Klee shay]

In my view, the passages I referenced are talking about believers. Why do you indicate that they aren't?

Forgive me. Perhaps you can explain what you were trying to communicate when you said:

In my opinion, one has to ignore a LOT of Scripture in order to cling to the OSAS doctrine.

Below are a couple of passages which acknowledge that there are believers whose souls will be lost.

It would seem to imply those whom allegedly ignore scripture to cling to OSAS doctine; need reminding of biblical passages that speak about believing souls which will be lost.

I guess your point highlights the broader picture that whether you believe or not - many will still be lost.

The Scripture tells me that there are obedient Christians, and disobedient Christians. The passages relating to obedient Christians are the passages OSAS are clinging to. They ignore the passages regarding disobedient Christians.

Again, we're back to the application of belief by individual people. Where does OSAS theology ignore the passages regarding to disobedient Christians? Just because one implies that a believer will be saved by Christ and as long as they continue to believe - they will always be saved; how does that get twisted into ignoring other scriptures?

The focus is on Christ. "Believing" in Christ. Yet some who would challenge the OSAS theology can only use those who have not believed and those spoken in the bible that will fall away, to say the theology is setting people up for a false sense of security.

Is that not setting the promises Christ has made; "none shall be plucked out of my hand", etc, etc, into a farce?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes, I believe that there is a book of life, a real book! What kind of a Christian would I be if I didn't believe what the Bible says? The Scripture doesn't go into detail on the mechanics of how it will be done. It's OK with me if He waits until Judgement Day, and just uses one blot for each believer who is found wanting.

Are you saying that you don't believe what the Bible says?

Sure but some things are literal and some things are metaphors. The fact that you think it's a literal book and that God made mistakes - saddens me.

I would hate to misinterpret the passages you are trying to reference, MM. Please throw some names and numbers into your comments. After at least six pages of demands for Scriptural references, I would have thought that you would be BIG on clarity.

I'm not the one throwing accusations around ;) But very well...here they are.

1 Pet 1:4-5
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Crace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(NKJ)

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." (John 10:27,28

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

Jude 24. Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

"The steps of the good man are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down. For the Lord upholdeth him with his hand"

Ephesians 1:14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And people say this is 'false security'?

 

[Klee shay]

I am sure all they want to do is Scripture fight. You know Scripture debate will not accomplish anything. These kinds of debates are for showing off.

Opposed to what you're doing I guess?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

sput,

thank you for your input.

I have talked many OSAS people and they know the problems. That's why I don't play their games. I am not debating here. I am just expressing my observations which most Christians do not express.

I am sure all they want to do is Scripture fight. You know Scripture debate will not accomplish anything. These kinds of debates are for showing off.

No what I want, is a reason why you oppose this theology. And you've never given it.

 

[farley]

Hi Solo,

You asked...

Could being blotted out of the book of life mean that all mankind was written in the book, but only those that are born again will remain and not be blotted out?

I suppose anything "could" be possible. And, if that turns out to be the case, I'll be covered. But, in my view, only one who is trying to make Scripture fit a preconceived situation would make such a leap. That is NOT what I see when I read it.

You stated...

Does the verse that says that believers are born again with a free gift of eternal life that is sinless because born again creature is the new creature born of God mean anything to you? Does it seem like you could have an error of judgment in your assessment of salvation, in that God is perfect and does not lie; therefore, when he says that we are born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, we are just that, born again freed from the penalty of sin, and sealed unto the day of redemption?

If this were the sum total of all the Scripture in the Bible, then you would be exactly right! But, it isn't, and, therefore, sadly, you aren't!

But, if you truly believe that your above quote IS correctly interpreted, then justify it with the following passage...

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

You state...

Some of the passages that you cite are passages that describe those that were never born again. Other passages refer to the non-profitability of sin in this life, not salvation. Salvation does not include the corrupt, mortal flesh that we carry around on a day to day basis. Salvation is for the spirit born again of God and the resurrection of the changed body which will be immortal and incorruptible. I do not read anywhere where the child of God is cast into a position where he is condemned again; nor do I find anywhere in the Bible where a soul must be born again two, three, four, a hundred more times everytime a personally defined sin carries him away.

You're gonna have to be more specific here. I'm not sure what passage you're putting in which category. And, no where have I said, or implied, even on another thread, anything about being born again more than one time. When a disobedient Christian repents from sin, they become a FORGIVEN Christian, AGAIN, an OBEDIENT Christian, AGAIN.

NOT a RE-RE-RE-born again Christian.

Didn't we go through this once before on another thread?

In Christ,

farley

 

[NRoof]

joyinhim,
Thanks for the response. While I appreciate the time it took to respond you did not answer my question. Here it is again.

What exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the OSAS theology?

I would still ask for Biblical reasoning.
The reason I ask this is I need to verify what you say with Gods word. If I can't verify it then how do I know what you are saying is coming from God and not just your opinion?

I hope this makes sense.

There is another OSAS thread, I believe those opposers of OSAS did a good job on the Scriptural part.

If you don't like what they have to say you will not like what anyone else says.

If we are true followers we will know by our fruit of Christianity. I hope you look for actual fruit instead of the numbers of the members.

If we are not true followers we will be decieved easily and we don't even care about the fruit of Christianity if you know what I mean.

I know there are other threads on this. I have read most of them.
You are the one that started this one and you are the one I have asked the question of.

Is there any particular reason I am not worth answering?