The mess that OSAS theology made

[joyinhim]

Really open your eyes and try to place yourself in ther 1 st century and continue to the present age looking carefully at each century

So, do you think your works will be sufficient?

What are you counting on to get you into glory?

Who said anything about works will be sufficient? :evil:

 

[AVBunyan]

So, do you think your works will be sufficient?

What are you counting on to get you into glory?

Show me where in the OT, there is any mention to Hell? This is a NT teaching.

You never answered me - I'm not talking about hell here.

 

[Imagican]

AVBunyan,

Any relation to 'Paul'? If so, how's Blue? No, just joking.

I see that you are from 'the old school'. Don't mean this in a 'bad' way, but it certainly makes it difficult to deal with these 'new' schoolers, don't it?

I understand where you are coming from and think that I understand the 'justification' that you offer. I think this goes more along the lines of 'if saved.........'.

And I think that the insult that joy kept referring to was the one about 'silly' women being led astray. I think she took it a little too personal.

And you are certainly entitled to RUN your household in the way that believe to be proper. I doubt seriously that your wife has as much of a problem with this as those that have attacked your posts. She is obviously a sober woman that submits the authority of your home to you, the head. Amen brother.

I always enjoy reading your posts, (even when in direct opposition to my own), for much wisdom is oft offered and wisdom in these times of confusion is what we are lacking in most.

 

[Vic C.]

Show me where in the OT, there is any mention to Hell? This is a NT teaching.

You never answered me - I'm not talking about hell here.

Correct, the topic is OSAS, not the existance or nonextistance of hell. Lets stay on topic please.

Thanks.

 

[AVBunyan]

Derpis statement

I haven't see any one claiming OSAS that are powerful witnesses for the Lord.

Could it be because you are blind? Are you the "all-powerful witnessin judge"? It appears you live in a small world and see very little of real personal work.

This is not just a response to “joyimhim†but for all to see.

This type of poorly-thought out statement comes up all the time. This demonstrates a lack of understanding of church history and real revival. Allow me to reiterate what I said already several times before on this forum.

The greatest evangelists ever have been “OSAS†believers and or, Calvinist in their theology:
George Whitfield, CH Spurgeon, DL Moody, Billy Sunday, Sam Jones, Peter Cartwright just to name a few.

How do your “lose-it preachers†(Swaggart, PTL, TD Jakes, Hinn, Copeland, etc.) today stack up against the above evangelists?

The greatest missionaries ever have been “OSAS†believers and, or Calvinist in their theology:
John Paton, William Cary, David Brainard, Jonathan Goforth, John Williams, Hudson Taylor, Cameron Townsend, John Elliot, Henry Martyn, etc. just to name a few.

The greatest Christian writers ever have been “OSAS†believers and, or Calvinist in their theology:
John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson, John Newton, John Gill, AW Pink, John Knox, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, Thomas Boston, Samuel Rutherford, Stephen Charnock, Richard Sibbes, Richard Baxter, etc. just to name a few.

How do your “lose-it preaches†(Swaggart, PTL, TD Jakes, Hinn, Copeland, etc.) today stack up against the above writers? I’ve read modern works by these panty-waisted, “lace on their britchesâ€Â, wimpy , say-nothing writers – junk – all of it – and you wonder why “Christianity†today is falling apart.

The above men I mentioned were spirit-filled men who put their lives on the line to witness and preach and teach to the lost and saved.

Imagaine someone implying OSAS folks are not powerful witnesses today

Let's be mean here - I don't anybody (inculding myself) who can stack up to the saints of yesterday.

But I'm sure there are some powerful witnesses today that are going unnoticed and I'm willing to bet they are grace believers.

Later 8-)

 

[joyinhim]

AVBunyan,

Any relation to 'Paul'? If so, how's Blue? No, just joking.

I see that you are from 'the old school'. Don't mean this in a 'bad' way, but it certainly makes it difficult to deal with these 'new' schoolers, don't it?

I understand where you are coming from and think that I understand the 'justification' that you offer. I think this goes more along the lines of 'if saved.........'.

And I think that the insult that joy kept referring to was the one about 'silly' women being led astray. I think she took it a little too personal.

And you are certainly entitled to RUN your household in the way that believe to be proper. I doubt seriously that your wife has as much of a problem with this as those that have attacked your posts. She is obviously a sober woman that submits the authority of your home to you, the head. Amen brother.

I always enjoy reading your posts, (even when in direct opposition to my own), for much wisdom is oft offered and wisdom in these times of confusion is what we are lacking in most.

Imagican, I am not talking about silly women, I am talking about many church goers all over the US.

I have been living US over 30 years and I have witnessed OSAS followers believe they are saved without fruit of Christianity.

Why do you minimize the evidence of true followers?

The Bible makes it very clear we know what we are by our produscts. Do I have to go in more details? Why are you afraid of speaking the reality? Just because we don't focus on negative reality, it is not going to disappear. How can you keep your mouth shut when we are disgracing His name with our conduct?

more is coming from me.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I have been living US over 30 years and I have witnessed OSAS followers believe they are saved without fruit of Christianity.

There are a lot of believers in general who think they are saved without fruit too. Some of them are the 'once saved not the next' crowd too. So rather than actually study the theology itself you'd rather look around at the bad examples and take your que from there? Gosh I hope not! Then we're all in trouble then aren't we. Imagine if heathens did that with christianity - oh that's right, they do. :roll:

 

[Imagican]

Sorry to veer guys. I just thought that an offering in reference would end this line of thought.

 

[AVBunyan]

And you are certainly entitled to RUN your household in the way that believe to be proper. I doubt seriously that your wife has as much of a problem with this as those that have attacked your posts. She is obviously a sober woman that submits the authority of your home to you, the head. Amen brother.

I always enjoy reading your posts, (even when in direct opposition to my own), for much wisdom is oft offered and wisdom in these times of confusion is what we are lacking in most.

Thanks Imagican - I appreciate your kindful and well-thought out words. That was a blessing to me.

May God bless

 

[farley]

Hi Solo,

After much study, I'm afraid that I have found many conflicts with your position.

farley,
The questions that you need to ask yourself are:

Have I disobeyed Jesus at all since I have been born again? Yes.

If I have, did I receive forgiveness for my sins? Yes.

Did I receive forgiveness for my sins because I confessed them, or because they were forgiven at the cross of Jesus? Both! Without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross we would not have salvation through grace. And because, I confessed them, as commanded in…

1 John 1:9 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When I disobey Jesus, will I become unborn again? No, one will become a disobedient Christian. Whenever one is born, physically or spiritually, one can NEVER become unborn.

When I disobey Jesus, will I remain born again, Yes! but be on my way to hell because of sin that Jesus was not able to forgive me for at the cross? Partially correct! You would be TWISTING scripture here, Solo, if you had referenced any!!! Yes, one will be on one’s way to hell until their sin(s) are repented of, see 1 John 1:9 above, through no short comings of Christ.

What is being born again? An event which happens when, (1)one hears the Gospel preached, (2)believes that Jesus Christ is the one, true, living, Son of Jehovah, the one, true, living, God, (3)confesses this belief before men, (4)repents of ones sins, and (5)is baptized (immersed in water), for the remission of sins, receiving the Holy Spirit.

Does being born again guarantee me a place in the kingdom of God, No. or do I have to work towards that salvation? Yes. Faith without works is dead.

What does Paul mean in Romans 7 that he does the things that he knows that he shouldn't do, and that he doesn't do the things that he knows that he should do; and that he recognizes that no good thing dwells in his flesh, that it is sold to sin.
Here Paul is telling us that he, like every sincere Christian, constantly is struggling in a battle against sin. The flesh is weak in its effort to resist evil. Sin deceives us and continually dwells in our fleshly bodies.


When a person is born again, born of God is he still able to be thrown to hell? Yes! How else can you explain passages like…

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

How Sin! and why? Satan!


9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10



For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4



We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:18

Solo, the three passages, which you have posted above, are in direct conflict with the passage from Romans 7. Not to mention the illustration you made using Paul, Peter, David and Noah in an earlier post in this same thread. Solo, you seem to be all over the map on this issue.

Something has got to give here! You seem to be using Paul, Peter, David and Noah to prove that believers ARE capable of sin, but that they are not at risk of damnation, which STILL conflicts with 1 Timothy 4:1, above, and James 5:19-20, also above. Then you use the passages from 1 John above to prove that believers AREN'T capable of sin. However, this makes your earlier references, totally cancel your later references!!! Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!

For some reason, nobody else on this forum seems to want to hold your feet in the fire over these conflicts!!!

Let me quote the same three passages you used above, from a different translation of the Bible…

1 John 3:9-10 ESV
(9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
(10) By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:4 ESV
(4) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:18 ESV
(18) We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

My, what a difference we have here, now.

In conclusion, in order to be saved one must be born of the Spirit (born again) according to Jesus (John 3). I agree! That which is born of God will not sin, False! As per your own conflicting references, above! but that which is born of the flesh is sin. True! Believers are not redeemed from the corrupt, mortal flesh until Jesus returns. True! Until then we have the new creature inside that is born of God, and the corrupt flesh, sold under sin, which is born of sinful man. We have a choice to walk in the Spirit, or to walk in the flesh. Walking in the flesh is not profitable, but walking in the Spirit gains rewards eternal in heaven. I agree! To walk in the flesh is physically deadly, True but the inward, new creation will be redeemed as it is born of God and unable to sin. Again, false! As per your own conflicting references, above!

Thanks for your post and may God be glorified in our pursuit and proclamation of the truth.

Michael

Thank you for the opportunity to study from your perspective! May the Lord bless us both, and all here. farley.

 

[John the Baptist]

Is preaching once saved always saved even Truthful??

OK: First must come the subject of Obedience, after one is Born Again! It seems to me that there is no way to be Born Again in the first place unless Acts 5:32 has found mankind 'submissive' to the Godhead's Eternal Covenant of OBEDIENCE!! Hebrews 13:20

And then comes.. All Scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16! All 66 books, and all of these pages are to be used for any Truthful doctrine, and there is no place quoted from God where this is not the case. (see Matthew 4:4) All the way from Gen. to Rev. we see only a two party conditional promise for one to be saved. A tree of testing right in the 'midst' of God's Garden of Eden, [with a warning for the pair to not..]!!!They were created 'very good', not flawed! The free choice was theirs to make. As is the 'diet' of Matthew 4:4, huh?

Way on down to the closing book of the Godheads Revelation's last few verses we see once again perfect real Christians who have [their names in the Book of Life, Warned] that to add or remove anything from God's Word will find these same ones having their name removed from the [Book of Life]! Compare Ecclesiastes 3:14

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it]: and God doeth it, that men should fear before Him."

And instead: We hear that mankind is O.S.A.S. The devil has a 'doctrine' that promises mankind 'liberty'! 2 Peter 2:19-22!! (K.J.) He even says that God is just giving 'empty' warning threats'. Yet, when a REAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN reads the WORD OF GOD there, they know that God does not use satin's tactics of lies! See 2 Corinthians 4:2. God's Word even says that these ones 'were made Partakers of the Holy Ghost' in Hebrews 6:1-6!!!!

No: O.S.A.S. is the doctrine of the devil. It will be one of the doctrines that necessitate hell being filled with ministers. (and the like!) But of course, this is just one of their flawed teachings. See Luke 12:47-48

But having said that, you can still be sure that there are many of Christ's saints still there in ignorance, many have even died in the faith as far as they knew of it, believing that it was truth, while others are hearing the WORD'S OF THEIR MASTER BEING READ OVER & OVER AGAIN IN REVELATION 18:4, in the Showers of the early part of 'Latter Rain' setting! You can read the verses to see if they will finally be saved or not? They are His Christ's Words!

---John

 

[Solo]

Does the flesh become obedient after one is born of God, born of the Spirit, born again?

No, the flesh is sold under sin and is corrupt and immortal. It will remain in that state until the return of Jesus whereby it will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

Does the new creature become obedient after one is born of God, born of the Spirit, born again?

Yes because this new creature is born of God and cannot sin.


Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,

After much study, I'm afraid that I have found many conflicts with your position.

farley,
The questions that you need to ask yourself are:

Have I disobeyed Jesus at all since I have been born again? Yes.

If I have, did I receive forgiveness for my sins? Yes.

Did I receive forgiveness for my sins because I confessed them, or because they were forgiven at the cross of Jesus? Both! Without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross we would not have salvation through grace. And because, I confessed them, as commanded in…

1 John 1:9 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When I disobey Jesus, will I become unborn again? No, one will become a disobedient Christian. Whenever one is born, physically or spiritually, one can NEVER become unborn.

When I disobey Jesus, will I remain born again, Yes! but be on my way to hell because of sin that Jesus was not able to forgive me for at the cross? Partially correct! You would be TWISTING scripture here, Solo, if you had referenced any!!! Yes, one will be on one’s way to hell until their sin(s) are repented of, see 1 John 1:9 above, through no short comings of Christ.

What is being born again? An event which happens when, (1)one hears the Gospel preached, (2)believes that Jesus Christ is the one, true, living, Son of Jehovah, the one, true, living, God, (3)confesses this belief before men, (4)repents of ones sins, and (5)is baptized (immersed in water), for the remission of sins, receiving the Holy Spirit.

Does being born again guarantee me a place in the kingdom of God, No. or do I have to work towards that salvation? Yes. Faith without works is dead.

What does Paul mean in Romans 7 that he does the things that he knows that he shouldn't do, and that he doesn't do the things that he knows that he should do; and that he recognizes that no good thing dwells in his flesh, that it is sold to sin.
Here Paul is telling us that he, like every sincere Christian, constantly is struggling in a battle against sin. The flesh is weak in its effort to resist evil. Sin deceives us and continually dwells in our fleshly bodies.


When a person is born again, born of God is he still able to be thrown to hell? Yes! How else can you explain passages like…

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

How Sin! and why? Satan!


9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10



For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4



We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:18

Solo, the three passages, which you have posted above, are in direct conflict with the passage from Romans 7. Not to mention the illustration you made using Paul, Peter, David and Noah in an earlier post in this same thread. Solo, you seem to be all over the map on this issue.

Something has got to give here! You seem to be using Paul, Peter, David and Noah to prove that believers ARE capable of sin, but that they are not at risk of damnation, which STILL conflicts with 1 Timothy 4:1, above, and James 5:19-20, also above. Then you use the passages from 1 John above to prove that believers AREN'T capable of sin. However, this makes your earlier references, totally cancel your later references!!! Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!

For some reason, nobody else on this forum seems to want to hold your feet in the fire over these conflicts!!!

Let me quote the same three passages you used above, from a different translation of the Bible…

1 John 3:9-10 ESV
(9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
(10) By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:4 ESV
(4) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:18 ESV
(18) We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

My, what a difference we have here, now.

In conclusion, in order to be saved one must be born of the Spirit (born again) according to Jesus (John 3). I agree! That which is born of God will not sin, False! As per your own conflicting references, above! but that which is born of the flesh is sin. True! Believers are not redeemed from the corrupt, mortal flesh until Jesus returns. True! Until then we have the new creature inside that is born of God, and the corrupt flesh, sold under sin, which is born of sinful man. We have a choice to walk in the Spirit, or to walk in the flesh. Walking in the flesh is not profitable, but walking in the Spirit gains rewards eternal in heaven. I agree! To walk in the flesh is physically deadly, True but the inward, new creation will be redeemed as it is born of God and unable to sin. Again, false! As per your own conflicting references, above!

Thanks for your post and may God be glorified in our pursuit and proclamation of the truth.

Michael

Thank you for the opportunity to study from your perspective! May the Lord bless us both, and all here. farley.

Since you have said in this post that if one is born of God, born again, then one can never be unborn again, then how does one that is born again continue to sin if John 3:9-10 is true?

When I disobey Jesus, will I become unborn again? No, one will become a disobedient Christian. Whenever one is born, physically or spiritually, one can NEVER become unborn.

Read 1 John 3:9-10 very carefully and tell me whether it states that one who is born of God will continue in sin or not, and whether one can continue in sin or not. I say that the true translation of the scripture says that one born of God can not sin. Adam could sin, for he was not born of God, he was created of God; all mankind was not born of God, they were born of human parents that carried the sin nature. The only ones that have been born of God are Jesus Christ, and those that believe in him. Those that have truly believed in Jesus Christ have been born of God, born of the Spirit, born again.


1 John 3:9-10 ESV
(9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
(10) By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10 KJV

By the way, I haven't twisted any scripture even though you have accused me of doing so. That my friend is an accusation that is more devilish than Godly, and could very well be a sin. Be careful because I think that you are sincerely seeking God's truth.

 

[Vic C.]

My mom is up from Florida for two months. I asked her if I could be unborn. You really don't want to know what she had to say. :o


:-D

 

[John the Baptist]

My mom is up from Florida for two months. I asked her if I could be unborn. You really don't want to know what she had to say. :o


:-D

*****
Just wondering if she just gave you the 'ernest' of life, or the 'closing' full conditional package? :wink: ---John

 

[Solo]

My mom is up from Florida for two months. I asked her if I could be unborn. You really don't want to know what she had to say. :o


:-D

*****
Just wondering if she just gave you the 'ernest' of life, or the 'closing' full conditional package? :wink: ---John

Yeah Vic, Did she say that you couldn't ever be unborn, or did she say, IF you lose all but five pounds we'll give it a go?

 

[Vic C.]

... or did she say, IF you lose all but five pounds we'll give it a go?

LOL, yeah, something like that. I'm 48, 5'6". and weigh 160lbs. Think I can do it?

As imperfect as I am, I seriously doubt I can undo what God has done to me and for me. Sure, He may be able to help me lose a few pounds, but that's a good thing, is it not? ;-)

 

[Solo]

... or did she say, IF you lose all but five pounds we'll give it a go?

LOL, yeah, something like that. I'm 48, 5'6". and weigh 160lbs. Think I can do it?

As imperfect as I am, I seriously doubt I can undo what God has done to me and for me. Sure, He may be able to help me lose a few pounds, but that's a good thing, is it not? ;-)

I am 6'0 weighing 240 lbs. When I had my motorcycle wreck I weighed 255 lbs but lost 50 lbs in 40 days. I call it my "Crash Diet". :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Please, back to the 'thread' :fadein:

But just a quick side thought here on my part to, OK?
Have you read Judy's post under 'Current Events' with the title
-Cheap Grace is no Grace at all- Well, just perhaps it is not much off thread topic of what O.S.A.S. presents! (no question intended)

---John

 

[farley]

Solo,

You stated...

Since you have said in this post that if one is born of God, born again, then one can never be unborn again, then how does one that is born again continue to sin if John 3:9-10 is true?

I was thinking that the ESV offered the perspective that a believers sins where more apt to be sporatic, as one's 'new man' gained control over his 'old man' ways., rather than 'wide-open' same sinning as before being 'born again'.

I'm not trying to say that this take is 100% accurate, but, it makes more sense to me than your view. In any event, I see problems with your view, because this would mean: 1 Tim. 4:1; James 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5, and many others are wrong! Please, explain these passages away!

I feel that the proper interpretation of 1 John 3:9-10 is yet to be revealed, but surely my view conflicts with less scripture than yours.

Do you not agree, as Paul says in Romans 7, that as long as our spirit lives in a fleshly body, it will be tempted and deceived by evil?

BTW, I wouldn't mind seeing the scripture that supports your many references to being "unborn" and sins that Christ's sacrifice on the cross fails to cover.

In Christ,

farley