The Natural Man....

[Free]

Free, instead of slapping me around, just say you're not getting what I am saying. There's plenty I don't get....I admit it. See how easy that was?
Think about this. Why did Paul say that in him dwells no good thing, and that he was nothing without Christ?

And this. Why does Christ dwell in us and the Spirit will teach us all things if we can figure it all out by natural means?

If natural intellect, reason, logic, etc., etc. is all it takes to figure out the spiritual stuff, why then did Jesus tell Nicodemus that unless a man is born from above he cannot see/understand the kingdom of God?

And if our natural faculties were sufficient for understanding all things spiritual, why then did Jesus tell His disciples to tarry until the Holy Spirit comes on them? Why did He not just send them forth if they were already equipped?

He told them not to plan ahead what they would say if they were arrested and ordered to give an accounting before their captors. He said that God would give them what to say at that moment by the Holy Spirit. Their natural intellects and reasoning were overlooked by Christ for He knew anything proceeding from their mouths that was not birthed by the indwelling Spirit, would accomplish nothing, zero, zip!

I do understand what you're saying, that's why I'm saying you're wrong and you have some significant problems with your position. That isn't "slapping [you] around."

The issue is that you have made the claim, in one form or another, that our reason cannot be used to gain knowledge about Jesus or things spiritual. But that is not biblical. God never bypasses our intellect, our reason. The very writing of the Bible proves this. The Bible wasn't written via automatic writing or something of the sort. God used specific men via their reason and their ways of thinking about things to write down what He wanted written.

Now you're also presuming that I am saying "natural intellect, reason, logic, etc., etc. is all it takes to figure out the spiritual stuff," and that "our natural faculties were sufficient for understanding all things spiritual," which I am not. I have not made any such claim. I am merely pointing out that your continued argument against all use of reason in understanding things spiritual is in error.

And lastly, it does the discussion no good if you simply say "Paul said such and such," or "Jesus said such and such." You need to provide the actual verses so they can be looked at and properly considered in their context.

 

[ejected]

I hope this chapter will help. I am a worm. Please do not conclude that im trying to be a 'know it all'. Any thing thing I say came through hell and high water....solid rock of trials and confusion. ill explain another time. Please read this slowly and see how Paul emphasizes the Holy Spirit as Teacher and not his own faculties. Thanks for bearing with me.

1 Corinthians 2 (Good News Translation)


1 Corinthians 2

Good News Translation (GNT)

The Message about the Crucified Christ

2 When I came to you, my friends, to preach God's secret truth,[a] I did not use big words and great learning. 2 For while I was with you, I made up my mind to forget everything except Jesus Christ and especially his death on the cross. 3 So when I came to you, I was weak and trembled all over with fear, {humility,humble.}4 and my teaching and message were not delivered with skillful words of human wisdom, {logic, reason, human intellect} but with convincing proof of the power of God's Spirit. 5 Your faith, then, does not rest on human wisdom {logic, reason, natural human intellect} but on God's power.
God's Wisdom

6 Yet I do proclaim a message of wisdom to those who are spiritually mature. But it is not the wisdom that belongs to this world or to the powers that rule this world—powers that are losing their power. 7 The wisdom I proclaim is God's secret wisdom, which is hidden from human beings, but which he had already chosen for our glory even before the world was made. 8 None of the rulers of this world knew this wisdom. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as the scripture says,
“What no one ever saw or heard,
what no one ever thought could happen,
is the very thing God prepared for those who love him.”

10 But[b] it was to us that God made known his secret by means of his Spirit.{not by logic, reason, or natural human natural intellect} The Spirit searches everything, even the hidden depths of God's purposes. 11 It is only our own spirit within us that knows all about us; in the same way, only God's Spirit knows all about God. 12 We have not received this world's spirit; instead, we have received the Spirit sent by God, so that we may know all that God has given us.
13 So then, we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom,[logic, reason, natural human intellect} but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit.[c] 14 Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot receive the gifts that come from God's Spirit. Such a person really does not understand them, and they seem to be nonsense, because their value can be judged only on a spiritual basis.[not with logic, reason, or natural human intellect} 15 Whoever has the Spirit, however, is able to judge the value of everything, but no one is able to judge him. 16 As the scripture says,
“Who knows the mind of the Lord?
Who is able to give him advice?”

We, however, have the mind of Christ.

 

[Free]

The issue is that you have made the claim, in one form or another, that our reason cannot be used to gain knowledge about Jesus or things spiritual. But that is not biblical.

Forgive me brother, I don't mean to butt in, but I think it is biblical.

Proverbs 3:5-7

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil./(KJV)

1 Corinthians 3:9

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness./(KJV)

John 3:5-7

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again./(KJV)

Matthew 18:3

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven./(KJV)

Romans 8:6-9

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his./(KJV)

Romans 8:14-16

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)

So what I believe that all of this adds up to is when we are born again, we begin to live for the Spirit and put away the old (Carnal) mind and thinking. We essentially become as little children again, and do not turn back to the old man (carnal thinking, i.e. intellect & reason), but to lean not on our understanding, but to look to the father to guide us and His spirit to teach us spiritual ways. Living for the spirit.

Forget your worldly wisdom, for it is foolishness unto God and His ways. That is the old man. Reject it and lay it in Jesus' lap and cry out Abba Father for guidance, in faith. Start over. As a child knows nothing and must be taught and guided, so should we look to the Lord and His Spirit to do for us. Leading us, teaching us. The Holy Spirit will bear witness to us and speak to our heart when we submit our carnal will totally unto God. When you reach for your intellect, you quench the Holy Spirit and Spiritual growth stops. This is very biblical.

God bless you brother, I hope I made sense of this.

I understand what you're saying but none of those passages says anything about not using our reason. As I pointed out to Withheld in a previous thread, God is a rational being and we are created in his image. We are rational beings whose God-given reason is necessary for even things as basic as communication or knowledge. Just because we can use our reasoning to suit the flesh does not mean that we cannot also use our reasoning to come to truth about Scripture. There are many times in the NT where reasoning is either directly mentioned or implied. I don't think I did get a response and now I can't find the thread.

And of course, you committed the same error in reasoning that he has done and in so doing, have blown up your own argument. You are using reason--in pointing to passages of Scripture to support your position--to say that we are not to use reason or that it has no place in reading Scripture. This simply proves that we absolutely cannot escape the use of reason in reading and understanding Scripture. And please understand that this in no way means we don't need the Holy Spirit. God used the minds, experiences, and writing styles of the those who wrote the Bible and in so doing, had them write what he wanted to have written. This wasn't done through some sort of automatic writing.

My point is that it takes both the Spirit and our mind, or perhaps better stated as relying on the Spirit to guide our minds and bring insight. But we are never told that our reason is of the flesh, or evil, or whatever.

 

[ejected]

Walking so committed to Him, till you cultivate the hearing ear so as to know His stirrings and guidance.
Make that hour by hour commitment. Make sure your vessel is clean He'll reveal Himself to you....in remarkable ways In your spirit.

 

[Eventide]

Interesting thread, I just read through most of it and would like to insert a piece if I may...

It concerns conviction before we are born again... The Holy Spirit convincing us of sin before we're sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise as Eph 1:13 declares.

How does that work if we're not spiritual but rather carnal...

Does it mean that we can't reason or think..? Not imo it doesn't. Although it certainly does mean that we will not understand the deep things of God... for example, who understood what the church of God (the body of Christ) was before they were saved, or even years afterward for that matter..?

There are theologies rampant today who take these things to the extreme and declare that God must regenerate a person before they will believe...

IMO that's nonsense.

The scriptures are perfectly clear imo as to how each and every person comes to Christ.. through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God.. that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

 

[ejected]

The Holy Spirit must open our spiritual eyes. He calls us. We don't call on Him, till after he begins the drawing process.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world...

 

[ejected]

'Christ Jesus Who was made to us WISDOM......' 1Cor1:30 and31. Not the world's wisdom. Not our carnal intellect.

'God chose the foolish things of the world to put to shame those who are WISE....' 1Cor.1:26-29.

 

[Eventide]

'Christ Jesus Who was made to us WISDOM......' 1Cor1:30 and31. Not the world's wisdom. Not our carnal intellect.

'God chose the foolish things of the world to put to shame those who are WISE....' 1Cor.1:26-29.

No doubt about that... although I'm not sure what it has to do with the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which ligtheteh every man that comes into the world..

And it doesn't answer the question about conviction coming before we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as Eph 1:13-14 so clearly details. Obviously people are being convicted (convinced) of their sin before they are sealed by God with the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps this is about something else... like God had to allow you to believe and that He doesn't do this for all men... is that what this thread is about ?

 

[ejected]

Jesus said 'no man comes to me except the Father draws him' . Don't get the cart ahead of the horse. About 'He lights every man'. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

 

[Eventide]

Jesus said 'no man comes to me except the Father draws him' . Don't get the cart ahead of the horse. About 'He lights every man'. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Just asking some simple and relative questions here..

We also know that when Christ was lifted up that He draws all men to Himself.. and once again, we also know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Does that mean that all men receive Him... ?

Not imo... but it does mean that He draws each one and is that true light which does light every man.

Ignoring these things often does result in men thinking that they received some 'special call'.. etc.

All that stuff...

 

[ejected]

What do you mean by the 'special call' remark? Thanks.

 

[Eventide]

exactly what it sounds like... some men are led to believe that the Lord called them in an effectual way whereas the rest only receive the general call.. that's why I call it special... simply because these men are led to believe that they received some special call.

Then they'll also say that it was irresistable... for them of course.

 

[Eventide]

Then before you know it they're calling themselves the elect of God... and that God chose them unconditionally at that..

It all goes downhill rapidly... but it certainly tickles the ears of many.

 

[ejected]

all r special. no one above another. but I believe their is a remnant.

Andy Zoppelt

There is something in the Spirit I have never felt before. I have
received so many emails from the cries of people throughout the world
that are not connected to anything; they find themselves alone with
God with a cry that
God is hearing. I am struggle for the words, who can define the
almighty eternal God? Who is adequate to do this?

In our running to and fro seeking revelation and teaching we have
become so used to the shallowness of men and their teaching and
activities, void of His glory, that we have lost the magnificence and
significance of His Glory. It is coming as a stream from heaven, not
to the successful, not to the great, not to the articulate, not to the
wise nor to the rich... it is
coming to those with a depth of emptiness, a longing, those isolated
unto Him. There singleness of vision as they behold Him is drawing Him
down to the place where He is revealing Himself to them. The light is
getting brighter unto the perfect day.

With one glance of their eye the Lord is moved. In the midst of all
the storms that are gathering around us, in the midst of the busyness
of men, in the midst of the great attempts of man to create something
they think is of Him, in the midst of political and religious turmoil
these called out ones are drawing Him to themselves through their love
and devotion to Him. As the cry in heaven is increased by those
martyred for His name sake, "They cried with a loud voice, saying,
'How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our
blood on those who dwell on the earth?'" That cry will be echoed on
this earth in the confines of those who have retreated into His
presence. While others are busy working, they are busy ministering to
Him.

God does not value man's ways and truth because man does not value His
ways and truth. We can no longer do what we are doing and be found in
Him. It is better to have His heart than to have great works. Men have
become too captivated by other men. God does not need the talent of
men or their ability or inspiration…God is looking for empty vessels
to fill.

There is a stir from the smallest, the noblest, the most loyal, the
nobodies, the hidden ones and they are unaware of their place in Him.
Like Moses, they feel too inadequate for the task that is coming, they
are overwhelmed with His abilities and are sitting back crying out for
Him to move, to restore justice in His body. They are not moving and
asking God to join them, they are crying out to God so they can move
with Him to lead the war.

God will bring down all the big names, those respected by men who have
created great works, men who have, in their pride, rushed to the front
row and found recognitions for their eloquence and genius. They
acquired titles and position and God is not looking to them, He is
looking for those who will bring in His kingdom and authority and
glory. These called out ones will not move without His anointing, His
leading, His sending accompanied by His power and glory.

This cannot be seen with the eyes of men, it is not a movement lead by
men, these called out saints are being prepared in the isolation of
the wilderness and they are being shaped in the hands of the potter.

"For the eyes of Lord run back and forth throughout the whole earth,
to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect
toward him."

Many are caught up in works and revelations that are irrelevant to
what is coming and they are not being prepared, though many feel they
are ready... the cost is different than what they expected in their
busyness and their business. God will pluck His called out and
separate ones as they behold Him only. These called out ones will be
an offense to those of great works and great movements; they will look
like inferior nobodies. It is better to wait and do nothing than to do
what we can do without Him. The doing is seeking Him, the coming
before Him and ministering to Him and the crying out to Him over the
conditions of His torn apart body by grievous wolves in sheep
clothing. If the blind lead the blind, they both shall fall in the
ditch. The ditch has only gotten deeper and we have become too
accustom to it and the natural man cannot see out of it.

Few are now being prepared, they are alone
with Him and feeding on His presence and His word and patiently
waiting for His voice...they will not move till they hear His voice.

 

[Eventide]

That's pretty interesting..

What do you see as the next thing coming from a biblical perspective of course... ?

 

[ejected]

In regards to what? Thanks.

 

[Eventide]

In regards to what? Thanks.

In regards to your article...

Many are caught up in works and revelations that are irrelevant to what is coming and they are not being prepared, though many feel they are ready...

What is coming...

 

[ejected]

The wisdom of this world, with its worldly spirit, was the only thing that had

overcome the church, and had carried it into captivity. For in captivity it certainly is, as soon as it

is turned into a kingdom of this world; and a kingdom of this world it certainly is, as soon as

worldly wisdom has its power in it. Not a false doctrine, not a bad discipline, not an usurped

power, or corrupt practice ever has prevailed, or does prevail in the church, but has had its whole

birth and growth from worldly wisdom.

William Hall 1761

An Ernest and Affectionate Address to the 'Clergy' http://www.savior-of-all.com/Earnest & Affectionate Address.pdf