The Nicene Creed

[JLB]

As usual, you did not answer my question or address my post, but simply cut and paste your previous post. If you don't know the answer, then just admit it.

I will ask my one simple question again;

Why are you posting about the word "monogenes" when the subject of this part of the thread is γεννηθέντα?

I am showing the other Greek words that are rendered "begotten" in English, which shows us by context, why we believe Jesus was begotten before all things, which includes "worlds'.

Ignoring my post, and trying to change the subject, as if this whole thread is about some verse or someones "commentary" about what some Greek word may or may not mean, is only showing that your position is slanted toward a preconceived idea that is bent on disproving Jesus is Lord, the Lord God who is before all things and created all things.

It is by the whole counsel of scripture that the truth is found.

Jesus said it this way.

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; John 16:13

You seem to want to avoid all truth about Jesus, and only focus on His humanity, that is to say, Him becoming flesh.

Those that desire the truth and the fullness of the truth about our Lord and King and great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have no problem reviewing and discussing all the scriptures that pertain to Him.


God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

The Son was not in the world, but was sent into the world.

If God sent an angel into the world, to say, deliver a message to His prophet Daniel, then the angel would come from where God is, and being sent, the angel would go to where Daniel was.

The Son of God was with the Father where He was [Above, in Heaven], and was sent into the world [Below, to earth], to be born of a virgin and become the Son of Man [Adam].

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:23

It's very clear from scripture, that Jesus was the creator, as He spoke as the Word and created, all things and upholds all things by His Word.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10



JLB

 

[Free]

γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,
begotten not made,

ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
of one substance with the Father,​

The first Greek word in red is also found in John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9. The second and third Greek words I highlighted in red is what I am addressing in this part of the thread. Others are confusing the issue by referring to Μονογενῆ rather than γεννηθέντα. My contention is that γεννηθέντα can only refer to a post-creation event/concept. Yet, the creed uses it to refer to a time prior to creation or, more precisely, "before all ages". Some versions say, "before all worlds".

"My contention is that γεννηθέντα can only refer to a post-creation event/concept." Based on what, exactly?

 

[JLB]

As usual, you did not answer my question or address my post, but simply cut and paste your previous post. If you don't know the answer, then just admit it.

I will ask my one simple question again;

Why are you posting about the word "monogenes" when the subject of this part of the thread is γεννηθέντα?

I'm still waiting for you to post your credentials that shows us you even understand the Greek and Hebrew language.

You veer away from the context and the whole counsel of God in the scriptures to contend for a point concerning the way a Greek word is used, yet it doesn't appear you are qualified to interpret the Greek language, much less try to change what the translators of the KJV and NKJV have given us.

Example:

You claim that God [Theos] here in verse 8, refers not to God but to a man???

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

Looking at the context, you would have us rely on your "interpretative skills" as a linguist to over ride the obvious context, that God here in verse 8 doesn't really refer to God [Theos] the Creator but somehow refers to a man.

The context shows us God [Theos], referring to the Son, is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Lord God, the Creator, given the language of verse 10, the direct context.

So forgive me if I choose not to put much weight in your ability to interpret the Greek language, if first you don't understand the plain and irrefutable scriptural context written in English.


JLB

 

[jocor]

I am showing the other Greek words that are rendered "begotten" in English, which shows us by context, why we believe Jesus was begotten before all things, which includes "worlds'.

I am not asking why YOU believe he was begotten before all world's based on your understanding of monogenes. I am asking why the authors of the creed believed he was begotten before all worlds based on their use of γεννηθέντα AND NOT MONOGENES. The fact that you cannot address γεννηθέντα shows me you have no answer and that the creed is wrong to use it in that context.

Ignoring my post, and trying to change the subject, as if this whole thread is about some verse or someones "commentary" about what some Greek word may or may not mean, is only showing that your position is slanted toward a preconceived idea that is bent on disproving Jesus is Lord, the Lord God who is before all things and created all things.

I started the thread JLB. I know what it is about. You have done nothing to address the issue, but have done a great job, as usual, on derailing this thread.

 

[jocor]

"My contention is that γεννηθέντα can only refer to a post-creation event/concept." Based on what, exactly?

Based on the definition of γεννηθέντα and its root γεννάω and based on how it was used throughout Scripture. If you can show me how either of those words or any variation of those words were used in a pre-creation context, I'm all ears.

 

[JLB]

I am not asking why YOU believe he was begotten before all world's based on your understanding of monogenes. I am asking why the authors of the creed believed he was begotten before all worlds based on their use of γεννηθέντα AND NOT MONOGENES. The fact that you cannot address γεννηθέντα shows me you have no answer and that the creed is wrong to use it in that context.

Again, another post of yours with no scripture.

I have shown why those who believe that Jesus was begotten before all things, and indeed created all things,m whether it be the wirters of the Creed, or me, or those on this forum, or the Apostles Paul, John, Peter and of course, the writer of the book of Hebrews.

It's because the scriptures, and the context of the scriptures repeatedly teach us this very thing.

You have to keep trying to make excuses for not addressing what the scriptures say, furthermore you are unqualified to understand the Greek or Hebrew language, and you have proven to be so, my misinterpreting the meaning of God [Theos] in the following verse.

For example:

You claim that God [Theos] here in verse 8, refers not to God but to a man???

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.Hebrews 1:8-10

Looking at the context, you would have us rely on your "interpretative skills" as a linguist to over ride the obvious context, that God here in verse 8 doesn't really refer to God [Theos] the Creator but somehow refers to a man.

The context shows us God [Theos], referring to the Son, is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Lord God, the Creator, given the language of verse 10, the direct context.

So forgive me if I choose not to put much weight in your ability to interpret the Greek language, if first you don't understand the plain and irrefutable scriptural context written in English.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Based on the definition of γεννηθέντα and its root γεννάω and based on how it was used throughout Scripture. If you can show me how either of those words or any variation of those words were used in a pre-creation context, I'm all ears.

More opinion with no scripture.

Man's commentary, and interpreting Greek words to change the meaning of the Bible, when you have shown that you are not at all qualified to express the meaning of a language you don't speak, is why you are not taken seriously when your goal is to deny Jesus as Lord; The Lord of heaven and earth, the Son of God who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth.

Plain as Day, the bible teaches this truth, which you would rather totally ignore, to discuss some Greek word, that you don't read or speak.

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus is before all things and created all things, and was begotten of the Father, and was sent into the world from Heaven, to become the Son of man and dies for our sins. Colossians 1:15-17 - Hebrews 1:8-10 - John 3:13


Why won't you acknowledge what is written here in Hebrews about these things?




JLB

 

[jocor]

Again, another post of yours with no scripture.

I have shown why those who believe that Jesus was begotten before all things, and indeed created all things,m whether it be the wirters of the Creed, or me, or those on this forum, or the Apostles Paul, John, Peter and of course, the writer of the book of Hebrews.

It's because the scriptures, and the context of the scriptures repeatedly teach us this very thing.

You have to keep trying to make excuses for not addressing what the scriptures say, furthermore you are unqualified to understand the Greek or Hebrew language, and you have proven to be so, my misinterpreting the meaning of God [Theos] in the following verse.

For example:

You claim that God [Theos] here in verse 8, refers not to God but to a man???

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.Hebrews 1:8-10

Looking at the context, you would have us rely on your "interpretative skills" as a linguist to over ride the obvious context, that God here in verse 8 doesn't really refer to God [Theos] the Creator but somehow refers to a man.

The context shows us God [Theos], referring to the Son, is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Lord God, the Creator, given the language of verse 10, the direct context.

So forgive me if I choose not to put much weight in your ability to interpret the Greek language, if first you don't understand the plain and irrefutable scriptural context written in English.


JLB

For my sanity's sake, I will no longer respond to any of your posts.

 

[JLB]

For my sanity's sake, I will no longer respond to any of your posts.

I post what the scriptures say. You know that.

At this point you are willfully and knowingly disregarding the honest straightforward, irrefutable truth of Jesus Christ, as the Lord God, and creator.

And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:10

This is a direct reference to the Son of God.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Since no one has been able to show from Scripture or Greek lexicons that the word γεννηθέντα or any form of it can apply to a time "before all worlds" as the Nicene Creed of 381 says, then that establishes the fact that the creed is wrong when it says, "begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father before all worlds" (the red words are wrong). There is no doubt that Yeshua was begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father, but that happened at his birth (Matthew 2:1 in Greek), not before creation.

 

[JLB]

Since no one has been able to show from Scripture or Greek lexicons that the word γεννηθέντα or any form of it can apply to a time "before all worlds" as the Nicene Creed of 381 says, then that establishes the fact that the creed is wrong when it says, "begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father before all worlds" (the red words are wrong). There is no doubt that Yeshua was begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father, but that happened at his birth (Matthew 2:1 in Greek), not before creation.

It has been shown from the scripture clearly that God the Father says of His Son;

You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:10

And

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is thescepter of Your kingdom.
Hebtews 1:8

Since you refuse to acknowledge the truth of this scripture, that Jesus is both Lord and God, and laid the foundation of the earth, and stretched out the heavens, then it must mean you clearly don't understand the meaning and context of the word God "Theos" and therefore are certainly not qualified to interpret the word γεννηθέντα.


JLB

 

[childeye]

An interesting topic. The Nicene Creed to me, is counterintuitive. It appears to be an attempt to put into words, a general description of what is, the Spirit of the faith. However, I don't think it was a good idea to try to do this, since words fall short of describing the revelation of God that comes from God. Words can be misrepresented and misunderstood. After all, God was made manifest in the flesh and blood so as to be revealed in a manner chosen by God Himself. This brings to mind that it is written in scripture, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life. Words therefore, even with good intention, can kill. 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

Moreover, what is the Creed meant to accomplish? It was probably meant to form a visible written platform for the expressed cause of unity. Yet for the sake of unity, it seems more straightforward to say, that to know Jesus is to know God. Therefore, I can't help but think that those who felt the need to create a Creed, either knowingly or unknowingly, did so in service to vain political purposes that are contrary to the actual Spirit of the faith. John 5:39.

 

[Malachi]

Since you refuse to acknowledge the truth of this scripture, that Jesus is both Lord and God, and laid the foundation of the earth, and stretched out the heavens, then it must mean you clearly don't understand the meaning and context of the word God "Theos" and therefore are certainly not qualified to interpret the word γεννηθέντα.

We should never forget that some people clearly understand the implications of certain Scriptures but RESIST THE TRUTH. Resisting the truth was very prevalent when Christ walked on this earth, and it is still prevalent.

 

[Malachi]

Therefore, I can't help but think that those who felt the need to create a Creed, either knowingly or unknowingly, did so in service to vain political purposes that are contrary to the actual Spirit of the faith. John 5:39.

I don't believe that impugning the motives of those who crafted the Nicene Creed is profitable in the least. The essential truths of Scripture are there, and we should accept it for what it is. But ultimately doctrine must be based solidly on Scripture.

 

[childeye]

I don't believe that impugning the motives of those who crafted the Nicene Creed is profitable in the least.

I find that I always try to discern motives, whether they are Godly or ungodly, so that I might be led by the Spirit of Christ in all Truth. We must beware of false teachers, and we know them by their fruit. The historical facts are, that the creed caused division that still exists to this very day. The discussion of the nature of the Son in relationship to the Father was an argument based on semantics and cynicism. The words "begotten, not made', were added because of misunderstandings about the teachings of some Christians that were being misinterpreted by others. Many were persecuted and forced to take sides. That is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

The essential truths of Scripture are there, and we should accept it for what it is.

The essential Truth that scripture alludes to, is the knowing of Who God is Personally. This Truth is also alluded to in the Creed, but only through the revelation of the Christ, can one actually know Christ.

But ultimately doctrine must be based solidly on Scripture.

There is plenty of division based on the many differing interpretations of scripture. Subsequently there are many doctrines that don't agree, yet all claiming to serve God. Ultimately, good doctrine fulfills Love God with all your heart mind and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself. Many Pharisees knew scripture inside and out, yet they did not know the Christ and persecuted he who is God, as ungodly.

 

[Free]

An interesting topic. The Nicene Creed to me, is counterintuitive. It appears to be an attempt to put into words, a general description of what is, the Spirit of the faith. However, I don't think it was a good idea to try to do this, since words fall short of describing the revelation of God that comes from God. Words can be misrepresented and misunderstood. After all, God was made manifest in the flesh and blood so as to be revealed in a manner chosen by God Himself. This brings to mind that it is written in scripture, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life. Words therefore, even with good intention, can kill. 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

Moreover, what is the Creed meant to accomplish? It was probably meant to form a visible written platform for the expressed cause of unity. Yet for the sake of unity, it seems more straightforward to say, that to know Jesus is to know God. Therefore, I can't help but think that those who felt the need to create a Creed, either knowingly or unknowingly, did so in service to vain political purposes that are contrary to the actual Spirit of the faith. John 5:39.

The purpose of the Creed, as with others, was to summarize essential Christian doctrine, based on Scripture, to make it easier to memorize, particularly for the illiterate. There is nothing wrong with the Nicene Creed, despite what is being said about it here.

 

[childeye]

The purpose of the Creed, as with others, was to summarize essential Christian doctrine, based on Scripture, to make it easier to memorize, particularly for the illiterate. There is nothing wrong with the Nicene Creed, despite what is being said about it here.

There are always semantics whether one is illiterate or not. God is Spirit and therefore so is His Word. A question for you, Does the Creed contain His Spirit so as to know Him through reciting it?

 

[Free]

Since no one has been able to show from Scripture or Greek lexicons that the word γεννηθέντα or any form of it can apply to a time "before all worlds" as the Nicene Creed of 381 says, then that establishes the fact that the creed is wrong when it says, "begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father before all worlds" (the red words are wrong). There is no doubt that Yeshua was begotten (γεννηθέντα ) of the Father, but that happened at his birth (Matthew 2:1 in Greek), not before creation.

Actually, the NT is clear that the Son has always existed, so taking in the larger context of Scripture, it is technically not incorrect to say that he was begotten before all worlds. And I do not think you have made a strong case otherwise. You are reading the error of Christ's non-preexistence into the contexts of the word's usage, hence you are then concluding that it does not refer to any event prior to Creation.

Of course, even if we grant you this argument, we could just as well argue that since the Bible as a whole clearly shows the eternal preexistence of Christ, then the word in question merely applies to his incarnation and need not mean that that was the point in time he came into existence.

 

[Free]

There are always semantics whether one is illiterate or not.

No there isn't. One is either literate--able to read--or one is not.

God is Spirit and therefore so is His Word. A question for you, Does the Creed contain His Spirit so as to know Him through reciting it?

I don't think his Word is Spirit but his Spirit works through the Word, just as he can work through the Creed. Again, the Nicene Creed is simply a summation of biblical doctrine

 

[childeye]

No there isn't. One is either literate--able to read--or one is not.

I think you misunderstand me. One may be illiterate, but still there remains semantics to deal with in the words they hear being spoken. My point being that the Holy Spirit is required to discern the Gospel whether read or spoken, written or heard. Even the term God has a True meaning that only the Holy Spirit can reveal. That's what He does, is testify to the Father and the Son.

I don't think his Word is Spirit but his Spirit works through the Word, just as he can work through the Creed. Again, the Nicene Creed is simply a summation of biblical doctrine

When I say His Word, I am referring to that which is the same power of creation which is the life and Light of mankind. I am not referring to scripture which is inspired testimony to His Word. In this way I deal with semantics by making the distinction between His Word and scripture.


Of course His Word is Spirit:
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God is a Spirit and the Word was God. Logically, it follows that His Word is Spirit. Moreover, His Word is the Light and Life of men and only the Spirit can give Life. Again therefore, His Word is Spirit since it is Life.

John 1:4
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So with complete respect, Does the Creed contain His Spirit so as to know Him through reciting it?