The Nicene Creed

[Sinthesis]

Where did they come up with this other meaning for "begotten"? Certainly not from Scripture. Therefore, it is unscriptural.

Nobody invented a new meaning for 'begotten'. If you would study the various ways G1080 is used in scripture, combined with the message of John 1:1-18, then you would see that the word's use in the 381 Nicene Creed is consistant with scripture.

 

[jocor]

γεννάω

a beget: 23.58
b give birth: 23.52
c be born of: 13.56
d cause to happen: 13.129
γεννάω: unit
γεννάω ἄνωθεν
be born again 41.53​

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 2, p. 50). New York: United Bible Societies.

1164 γεννάω (gennaō): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 3528, 4580; Str 1080; TDNT 1.665—1. LN 23.58 procreate, bring into being, become the father of (Mt 1:2); 2. LN 23.52 give birth (Lk 1:13); 3. LN 13.56 be born of, involving of a radical change in the whole person (Jn 3:5); 4. LN 13.129 cause to happen, produce, give rise to (2Ti 2:23); 5. LN 41.53 γεννάω ἄνωθεν (gennaō anōthen), be born again or be born from above (Jn 3:3, 7+)​

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.).

γεννάω, γέννημα, γεννητός, ἀρτιγέννητος, ἀναγεννάω

γεννάω.

Like τίκτω, this term is used of the “begetting” of the father and the “bearing” of the mother, not only in Gk. generally,1 but also in the LXX and NT Figur. it is used of producing without birth, as at 2 Tm. 2:23 and also Joseph.: γεννᾶται ἐν αὐτῇ φοῖνιξ ὁ κάλλιστος (Ant., 9, 7, cf. Bell., 4, 469); in the religious sense of the old covenant (Gl. 4:24), of Paul in the self-protestations at 1 C. 4:15; Phlm. 10. γεννᾶν with God as subj., Prv. 8:25; Ps. 2:7 (quoted in Lk. 3:22 [west. reading]; Ac. 13:33; Hb. 1:5; 5:5). γεννᾶσθαι (pass.) in Jn. 1:13; 3:3, 5, 6, 8; 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18.​

A. “Begetting” as an Image of the Relationship of Master and Disciple.

The use of the terms father and son with reference to the master and disciple may be seen already in 2 K. 2:12. At the time of Jesus it was customary for the rabbi to call his pupil and the ordinary member of the community “my son,” cf. the style of address used by Jesus and Mt. 23:8–10. There was here no thought of begetting, as shown by the application to favoured members of the community. It was simply designed to emphasise the superiority and warmth of the “father” on the one side and the reverence of the “son” on the other. The more significant the achievement of the master and his relation to the disciple, the more he is compared to a father, b. San., 19b: “When a man teaches the son of another the Torah, the Scripture treats him as if he had begotten him”; cf. also b. Sanh., 99b. Paul goes further than this when he not only calls himself father but speaks of his γεννᾶν (cf. Gl. 4:19). This is usually derived from the Mysteries. But the mode of expression does not really imply more than that of the Rabbis. Again, though the mystagogue is called the father of the initiates, the word γεννᾶν is not actually used. Moreover, Paul begets through the Gospel (1 C. 4:15), through public preaching, not through a mystery. Furthermore, he begets whole communities and not just individual believers. In 1 C. 4:15 and Phlm. 10 we simply have a rhetorical development of the usual Jewish expression. It is wholly in line with the emotional strength, forcefulness and metaphorical power of the language of Paul. Perhaps some of his contemporaries used similar phrases.​

Kittel, G., Bromiley, G. W., & Friedrich, G. (Eds.). (1964–). Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, pp. 665–666). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

This was not helpful since I do not know what you are seeing in them. Why don't you put the info that supports your view in bold?

More silly games! The word in Greek is a COMPOUND WORD. The root word was given in a previous statement, which you refused to acknowledge. FYI I did a word search on γεννηθεντος in my software, and it did not come up, excepting for the root word, which I produced, and you did not accept. Instead you merely produced something that you cut and pasted from without any attribution, which is a plagiarism issue.

What are the two words that comprise this compound word? What have I plagiarized? I simply copied and pasted a verse from eSword. Is that illegal? Just stick to the issue without the personal attacks.

 

[jocor]

Nobody invented a new meaning for 'begotten'. If you would study the various ways G1080 is used in scripture, combined with the message of John 1:1-18, then you would see that the word's use in the 381 Nicene Creed is consistant with scripture.

I have studied G1080. I do not see where it is used of anyone prior to creation. Why don't you just post the verses where G1080 carry the meaning of being "begotten" before creation?

 

[JLB]

I have studied G1080. I do not see where it is used of anyone prior to creation. Why don't you just post the verses where G1080 carry the meaning of being "begotten" before creation?

15 He is the exact image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation, the eternal. 16 It was by Him that everything was created: the heavens, the earth, all things within and upon them, all things seen and unseen, thrones and dominions, spiritual powers and authorities. Every detail was crafted through His design, by His own hands, and for His purposes. 17 He has always been! It is His hand that holds everything together.
Colossians 1:15-27 The Voice


He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16 He created all things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
Whether they are kings or lords,
rulers or powers—
everything has been created through him and for him.
17 He existed before everything
and holds everything together.
Colossians 1:15-16 NOG

 

[Brother Mike]

Not just "unique", but "uniquely begotten." The word comes from two Greek words, monos meaning sole or unique and ginomai meaning "to cause to be, to become, to come into being". Yeshua was uniquely brought into being at his conception/birth. He is the only child Fathered directly by Yahweh through His spoken words and thoughts (logos).

You said it refers to his "incarnation" which proves my point. His "incarnation" took place in Mary's womb long after the "worlds" were created. Therefore, the phrase "before all worlds" is unscriptural.

Jesus was born by the Spoken World. Jesus is not "The" Word as some misread but came by the Word. In Acts we are told that Word was fulfilled. Jesus begotten just talks about when He came into this Earth, He has no creation date.

There is also only "ONE" Earth. There are no "Worlds" No scripture points to other planets, worlds or anything. The Sun and Moon were put "IN" the firmament above us, they move above us. The things people think are planets are just luminaries. NASA likes to make art into what they may look like.

NASA Lies.

Mike.

 

[Nick]

What are the two words that comprise this compound word? What have I plagiarized? I simply copied and pasted a verse from eSword. Is that illegal? Just stick to the issue without the personal attacks.

Unless you use the KJV or any other public domain version, Bible versions MUST be quoted, otherwise it is an infringement of copyright. For example, this is a violation:
John 3:16

But this is acceptable:
John 3:16 (ESV).

Just a reminder of everyone here, as some sites and businesses on the internet take copyright very seriously and we should too if we want to avoid legal action.

 

[JLB]

Jesus was born by the Spoken World. Jesus is not "The" Word as some misread but came by the Word. In Acts we are told that Word was fulfilled. Jesus begotten just talks about when He came into this Earth, He has no creation date.

There is also only "ONE" Earth. There are no "Worlds" No scripture points to other planets, worlds or anything. The Sun and Moon were put "IN" the firmament above us, they move above us. The things people think are planets are just luminaries. NASA likes to make art into what they may look like.

NASA Lies.

Mike.

Jesus was begotten of the Father.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.


JLB

 

[brother Paul]

Good one JLB....the Begotten Son was sent INTO the world...thus He is the "begotten Son" before He was sent, and since He is also the Creator the case should be closed because OBVIOUSLY the Creator pre-dates the Creation (hence the worlds which were created). It gets no clearer then this unless one shuts their eyes to the truth.

 

[JLB]

Good one JLB....the Begotten Son was sent INTO the world...thus He is the "begotten Son" before He was sent, and since He is also the Creator the case should be closed because OBVIOUSLY the Creator pre-dates the Creation (hence the worlds which were created). It gets no clearer then this unless one shuts their eyes to the truth.

Amen.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Unless you use the KJV or any other public domain version, Bible versions MUST be quoted, otherwise it is an infringement of copyright.

Sorry for the omission.

Mat 2:1 του G3588 δε G1161[NOW] ιησου G2424[JESUS] γεννηθεντοςG1080(G5685)[HAVING BEEN BORN] εν G1722[IN] βηθλεεμ G965 της G3588[BETHLEHEM] ιουδαιας G2449[OF JUDEA,] εν G1722[IN] ημεραις G2250["THE" DAYS] ηρωδου G2264[OF HEROD] του G3588[THE] βασιλεως G935[KING,] ιδου G2400(G5628)[BEHOLD,] μαγοι G3097[MAGI] απο G575[FROM] ανατολων G395["THE" EAST] παρεγενοντο G3854(G5633)[ARRIVED] εις G1519[AT] ιεροσολυμα G2414[JERUSALEM,] IGNT

 

[jocor]

Good one JLB....the Begotten Son was sent INTO the world...thus He is the "begotten Son" before He was sent, and since He is also the Creator the case should be closed because OBVIOUSLY the Creator pre-dates the Creation (hence the worlds which were created). It gets no clearer then this unless one shuts their eyes to the truth.

JLB and brother Paul, we are not discussing μονογενη which is what 1 John 4:9 uses, but γεννηθεντος which is what the creed uses.

 

[jocor]

Good one JLB....the Begotten Son was sent INTO the world...thus He is the "begotten Son" before He was sent, and since He is also the Creator the case should be closed because OBVIOUSLY the Creator pre-dates the Creation (hence the worlds which were created). It gets no clearer then this unless one shuts their eyes to the truth.

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
​

Yeshua SENT his disciples "into the world" just as the Father sent him into the world. That does not mean the disciples were alive in heaven before they were sent into the world.

Also, every person that is born of flesh has come "into the world".

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.​

 

[GodsGrace]

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
​

Yeshua SENT his disciples "into the world" just as the Father sent him into the world. That does not mean the disciples were alive in heaven before they were sent into the world.

Also, every person that is born of flesh has come "into the world".

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.​

This is far above my pay scale, just want to say that your post no. 231 is disturbing. Would I love to see the ORIGINAL Greek. Quite a difference between the two Greek words you post.

As to the above - you're right in your reasoning. As far as I can see, it all goes back to John 1. in the BEGINNING was the WORD... and the WORD was GOD.

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

In the beginning... There were at least two: God and the Word
What is the Word? Was it Jesus as the 2nd person of the Godhead?

If so, begotten means Jesus was begotten 2,000 years ago.(as a man)
If not, it means Jesus was begotten as some point that God decided He (God) wanted Jesus (or the Word or the 2nd person of the Godhead) to come into being.

But then how could Colossians 1:15-17 possibly be correct?
Could the bible be wrong?

Wondering

 

[JLB]

JLB and brother Paul, we are not discussing μονογενη which is what 1 John 4:9 uses, but γεννηθεντος which is what the creed uses.

The Title of this thread is Nicene Creed.

I don't find where the discussion is contained to just one word in the OP.

Jesus was before all things. Colossians 1:17

Worlds are things.

JLB

 

[jocor]

This is far above my pay scale, just want to say that your post no. 231 is disturbing. Would I love to see the ORIGINAL Greek. Quite a difference between the two Greek words you post.

Here is the Greek text with English translation under each verse. This is not how the link i cite has it. I edited it so it would read as an interlinear rather than side by side. This makes it easier for you to know which words are translations of each Greek word. I highlighted the words translated "begotten". This is from http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/nicene_creed.htm

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα
We believe in one God, the Father almighty,

ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων·
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible;

καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν Μονογενῆ,
the only begotten Son of God,

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
begotten from the Father before all ages,

Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
light from light,

Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,
true God from true God,

γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,
begotten not made,

ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
of one substance with the Father,​

The first Greek word in red is also found in John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9. The second and third Greek words I highlighted in red is what I am addressing in this part of the thread. Others are confusing the issue by referring to Μονογενῆ rather than γεννηθέντα. My contention is that γεννηθέντα can only refer to a post-creation event/concept. Yet, the creed uses it to refer to a time prior to creation or, more precisely, "before all ages". Some versions say, "before all worlds".

But then how could Colossians 1:15-17 possibly be correct?
Could the bible be wrong?

Wondering

I am not sure what you are questioning about Col 1:15-17. The Greek texts are not wrong as far as I know.

 

[jocor]

The Title of this thread is Nicene Creed.

I don't find where the discussion is contained to just one word in the OP.

Jesus was before all things. Colossians 1:17

Worlds are things.

JLB

If you will note my post#2, the first unscriptural part of the Nicene Creed is the issue of "begotten before all worlds".

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus was begotten of the Father.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.


JLB

Trying to Stay within the topic of the 325ad creed. Begotten means by the Word, into Earth. Jesus has always been here. The Creed words it a bit different than that

 

[smaller]

If you will note my post#2, the first unscriptural part of the Nicene Creed is the issue of "begotten before all worlds".

Which was quite entirely selectively plucked from the remainder of the presentation, noted quite a few pages back:

325 Nicene Creed:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance ( homoousion) with the Father;

The obsession with the term "begotten" matter is rather pointless.

 

[By Grace]

This was not helpful since I do not know what you are seeing in them. Why don't you put the info that supports your view in bold?

I did all that, and I copied from sources that carry more academic weight than does Strong's Concordance

What are the two words that comprise this compound word? What have I plagiarized? I simply copied and pasted a verse from eSword. Is that illegal? Just stick to the issue without the personal attacks.

You are imagining personal attacks where none exist.

As to the issue of plagiarism, it is indeed a copyright violation if you copy something from a source without any attribution. It is a sign of integrity to footnote the source material of anything you post that does not come from your head.

 

[By Grace]

The obsession with the term "begotten" matter is rather pointless.

Agreed!

The OP is trying to change the Nicene Creed, and there is no reason shown for doing that, other than personal choice.