The Nicene Creed

[smaller]

Agreed!

The OP is trying to change the Nicene Creed, and there is no reason shown for doing that, other than personal choice.

Indeed. The argument is:

aka a strawman aka a red herring aka anything but reading the entire statement of fact from the 325 Nicene Creed, which is as TRUE as we are going to get this matter.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is the Greek text with English translation under each verse. This is not how the link i cite has it. I edited it so it would read as an interlinear rather than side by side. This makes it easier for you to know which words are translations of each Greek word. I highlighted the words translated "begotten". This is from http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/nicene_creed.htm

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα
We believe in one God, the Father almighty,

ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων·
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible;

καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν Μονογενῆ,
the only begotten Son of God,

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
begotten from the Father before all ages,

Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
light from light,

Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,
true God from true God,

γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,
begotten not made,

ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
of one substance with the Father,​

The first Greek word in red is also found in John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9. The second and third Greek words I highlighted in red is what I am addressing in this part of the thread. Others are confusing the issue by referring to Μονογενῆ rather than γεννηθέντα. My contention is that γεννηθέντα can only refer to a post-creation event/concept. Yet, the creed uses it to refer to a time prior to creation or, more precisely, "before all ages". Some versions say, "before all worlds".


I am not sure what you are questioning about Col 1:15-17. The Greek texts are not wrong as far as I know.

Thanks jocor. I was questioning two specific words, but I'd like to drop it.

I'm not questioning Colossians 1:15-17
I meant that it clearly states that by Him (Yeshua) all things were made - ALL - so that would mean Yeshua ws present at the BEGINNING, as the beginning in Genesis, meaning always, without time, NO beginning, since God is outside of time as we know it. "And He (Yeshua) is before all things."

The above is referring to Yeshua - Jesus, the person of Jesus or Yeshua.
What say you?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think it's being silly to stop at the word "begotten."
Jocor is using the Nicean-Constantinople version from 381.
It starts off by saying that the Father created all things visible, invisible, of heaven and of earth.
It says we believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God...

Which is good. Because all mainline churches believe that JESUS, the man, was begotten (2,000 yrs ago) and is of the same nature as God, and thus is God.

Except that then the Creed goes on to say that He was begotten by the Father before all worlds.
Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds. Which would mean that Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Godhead, did not always exist.
IOW, it doesn't sound like John 1:1

BUT then it goes on to say "by whom all things were made." So now it's saying that Jesus (2nd person) made all things. If you really study this, the words ARE confusing. Who created all things the Father or the Son?

The only way to understand this is by accepting the concept of the Godhead being more than one person.
Otherwise it is confusing - the wording, I mean.

I believe Jesus, as the 2nd person, always existed. I do have to agree, though, that the wording is very poor and does cause confusion even in some mainline churches. Which is why, IMO, it's wise to stick to a total concept and not get caught up in words. OTOH, words are all we have and we should try to understand how concepts come about.

The only thing about the word "begotten", although very important, is that I think we're starting to kill the dead horse.


Wondering

 

[jocor]

By Grace, you did not answer my question. What are the two words that comprise this "compound word" γεννηθέντα?

 

[jocor]

Thanks jocor. I was questioning two specific words, but I'd like to drop it.

I'm not questioning Colossians 1:15-17
I meant that it clearly states that by Him (Yeshua) all things were made - ALL - so that would mean Yeshua ws present at the BEGINNING, as the beginning in Genesis, meaning always, without time, NO beginning, since God is outside of time as we know it. "And He (Yeshua) is before all things."

The above is referring to Yeshua - Jesus, the person of Jesus or Yeshua.
What say you?

Wondering

Col 1:15-17 is referring to Yeshua, but not the way you think it is. Forum rules do not allow me to express my view of it, so you will need to ask me that in private.

However, whether or not Yeshua always existed is not what we are discussing. Whether or not the phrase "begotten of the Father before all worlds" is scriptural or unscriptural is the issue.

 

[jocor]

I don't think it's being silly to stop at the word "begotten."
Jocor is using the Nicean-Constantinople version from 381.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Except that then the Creed goes on to say that He was begotten by the Father before all worlds.
Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds. Which would mean that Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Godhead, did not always exist.

My point exactly.

The only way to understand this is by accepting the concept of the Godhead being more than one person.
Otherwise it is confusing - the wording, I mean.

Another way to understand it is that the creed is WRONG and confuses the issue.

 

[GodsGrace]

Col 1:15-17 is referring to Yeshua, but not the way you think it is. Forum rules do not allow me to express my view of it, so you will need to ask me that in private.

However, whether or not Yeshua always existed is not what we are discussing. Whether or not the phrase "begotten of the Father before all worlds" is scriptural or unscriptural is the issue.

Yes. But that's the problem. It all depends on how you understand Yeshua's coming into existance...
If we understand the Godhead n a very traditional way, then we undersand Col 1:15-17 as referring to Yeshua and meaning He was WITH GOD FROM THE BEGINNING.

Then "begotten of the Father before all worlds", to my undersanding would NOT be scriptural.
But I did say above on a post, that the writers of the Creed may have worded it incorrectly and tried almost too hard to make a point.

Anyway, will spend some time on Colossians. But lata...

Guess the horse ain't dead yet...!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for clarifying that.


My point exactly.


Another way to understand it is that the creed is WRONG and confuses the issue.

I agree!


Which is why the Apostle's Creed is used in most churches. And why the Ecumenical Council of Turkey in 431 declared that the Creed of 325 should never have been changed. ( to the one you're using of 381)

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Trying to Stay within the topic of the 325ad creed. Begotten means by the Word, into Earth. Jesus has always been here. The Creed words it a bit different than that

I'm not much for creeds, or anything Catholic.

The Word says He was before all things. Colossians 1:17

By Him, all things were created.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.

Spoken into existence would mean Jesus was created just as everything else was created by God speaking them into existence.

Jesus was begotten of the Father, as in Spiritual Birth.

This took place before all things.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Yes. But that's the problem. It all depends on how you understand Yeshua's coming into existance...

No, it all depends on the meaning of γεννηθέντα. Even if I believed Yeshua was eternal, I could never apply γεννηθέντα to him before creation because that Greek word does not bear that definition..

 

[jocor]

I agree!


Which is why the Apostle's Creed is used in most churches. And why the Ecumenical Council of Turkey in 431 declared that the Creed of 325 should never have been changed. ( to the one you're using of 381)

Wondering

Just goes to show how creeds are constructed by fallible men who sometimes make unscriptural statements that lead millions into error.

 

[JLB]

Just goes to show how creeds are constructed by fallible men who sometimes make unscriptural statements that lead millions into error.

As are Greek and Hebrew concordances, as well as commentary, and most of all religions such as Judaism and Catholicism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Except that then the Creed goes on to say that He was begotten by the Father before all worlds.
Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds. Which would mean that Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Godhead, did not always exist.
IOW, it doesn't sound like John 1:1

Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds.

God the Father beget the Son, before all things. This does not mean the Father created the Son, anymore than a natural human Father creates his son, but rather he begets his son.

Just as all of mankind existed within Adam, and took on the sin he committed, as begotten of Adam.

The Son created all things.

The Son is before all things. Colossians 1:17


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds.

God the Father beget the Son, before all things. This does not mean the Father created the Son, anymore than a natural human Father creates his son, but rather he begets his son.

Just as all of mankind existed within Adam, and took on the sin he committed, as begotten of Adam.

The Son created all things.

The Son is before all things. Colossians 1:17


JLB

It's a misunderstanding JLB. I agree with you.

I was saying that the WORDING OF THE CREED made it sound like God begot Jesus and THEN the worlds were created - not that I agree with that idea.

Wondering

 

[jocor]

Well, what does THAT mean? It sounds like God, the Father begot JESUS, the Son FIRST and then created the worlds.

God the Father beget the Son, before all things. This does not mean the Father created the Son, anymore than a natural human Father creates his son, but rather he begets his son.

Just as all of mankind existed within Adam, and took on the sin he committed, as begotten of Adam.

The Son created all things.

The Son is before all things. Colossians 1:17


JLB

When you say "beget the Son", what Greek word are you using to establish your definition of "beget"?

 

[JLB]

When you say "beget the Son", what Greek word are you using to establish your definition of "beget"?

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:9

monogenēs - G3439 - single of its kind, only

1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

The Son was not in the world, but was sent into the world.

If God sent an angel into the world, to say, deliver a message to His prophet Daniel, then the angel would come from where God is, and being sent, the angel would go to where Daniel was.

The Son of God was with the Father where He was [Above, in Heaven], and was sent into the world [Below, to earth], to be born of a virgin and become the Son of Man [Adam].

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. John 8:23

It's very clear from scripture, that Jesus was the creator, as He spoke as the Word and created, all things and upholds all things by His Word.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's a misunderstanding JLB. I agree with you.

I was saying that the WORDING OF THE CREED made it sound like God begot Jesus and THEN the worlds were created - not that I agree with that idea.

Wondering

:nod

 

[jocor]

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:9

monogenēs - G3439 - single of its kind, only

1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Why are you posting about the word "monogenes" when the subject of this part of the thread is γεννηθέντα?

Since you brought up monogenes and provided Thayer's definition of it, I will address it.

Here is Strong's definition:
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

Here is the definition of G3441:
G3441
μόνος
monos
mon'-os
Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

So, taken out of the context of the Son, Thayer's definition of "single of its kind, only" only defines "monos", but not G1096 (the other half of the compound word "monogenes". Here is Strong's definition of G1096:

G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.):

In other words, monogenes means the only caused to be or the only to become. When applied to the Son it means, the only Son the Father brought into being or the only Son He caused to become.

Here is Thayer's definition of G1096:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Using Thayer's definition of G3441 and G1096 in the context of the Son it would mean "to become the only/unique Son". Yeshua became the "single of its kind" (unique) Son at his birth. No other being ever came to be in that way.

The word "monogenes was also applied to Abraham's son in Hebrews 11:17. In context, that would mean Isaac "became" Abraham's "unique son". He came to be or was brought into being in a special way (Yahweh miraculously working in the bodies of Abraham and Sarah).

Whether you use Strong's or Thayer's definition of monogenes, it refers to the Son's beginning or his coming into being or his coming into existence. Since you believe the Son has no beginning, that he was eternal, how do you justify using either monogenes (only begotten) or γεννηθέντα (born/begotten) for the Son prior to creation?

 

[JLB]

Why are you posting about the word "monogenes" when the subject of this part of the thread is γεννηθέντα?

Since you brought up monogenes and provided Thayer's definition of it, I will address it.

Here is Strong's definition:
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

Here is the definition of G3441:
G3441
μόνος
monos
mon'-os
Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

So, taken out of the context of the Son, Thayer's definition of "single of its kind, only" only defines "monos", but not G1096 (the other half of the compound word "monogenes". Here is Strong's definition of G1096:

G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.):

In other words, monogenes means the only caused to be or the only to become. When applied to the Son it means, the only Son the Father brought into being or the only Son He caused to become.

Here is Thayer's definition of G1096:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Using Thayer's definition of G3441 and G1096 in the context of the Son it would mean "to become the only/unique Son". Yeshua became the "single of its kind" (unique) Son at his birth. No other being ever came to be in that way.

The word "monogenes was also applied to Abraham's son in Hebrews 11:17. In context, that would mean Isaac "became" Abraham's "unique son". He came to be or was brought into being in a special way (Yahweh miraculously working in the bodies of Abraham and Sarah).

Whether you use Strong's or Thayer's definition of monogenes, it refers to the Son's beginning or his coming into being or his coming into existence. Since you believe the Son has no beginning, that he was eternal, how do you justify using either monogenes (only begotten) or γεννηθέντα (born/begotten) for the Son prior to creation?

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9


God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

The Son was not in the world, but was sent into the world.

If God sent an angel into the world, to say, deliver a message to His prophet Daniel, then the angel would come from where God is, and being sent, the angel would go to where Daniel was.

The Son of God was with the Father where He was [Above, in Heaven], and was sent into the world [Below, to earth], to be born of a virgin and become the Son of Man [Adam].

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:23

When you say "beget the Son", what Greek word are you using to establish your definition of "beget"?

Again here is my answer, as you seem to try and contradict what beget or begotten actually means.

monogenēs - G3439 - single of its kind, only

1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

Here is another Greek word for begotten, that is used to describe Christ.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? Hebrews 1:5

gennaō - G1080 -

1. of men who fathered children
   1. to be born
   2. to be begotten
      1. of women giving birth to children
2. metaph.
   
   1. to engender, cause to arise, excite
   2. in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
   3. of God making Christ his son
   4. of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

The context of begotten is of spiritual birth, of which the angels, being sons of God were not begotten of God in this manner, as Christ was... since Christ Himself is God the Son, and creator of all things, being before all things.

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The context is unmistakable and can not be explained away, with human reasoning. Jesus Christ is God [Theos] and is the creator of the heavens and earth, being the heir to God the father's Throne and the firstborn only begotten Son of God... before all things. Colossians 1:17


Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

The companions here is a reference to angels, to whom the writer of Hebrews is referring to.

These angels were His companions, during the time He laid the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens, before he was sent from above, into the world beneath, to become the Son of Man.


Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



JLB

 

[jocor]

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9


God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

The Son was not in the world, but was sent into the world.

If God sent an angel into the world, to say, deliver a message to His prophet Daniel, then the angel would come from where God is, and being sent, the angel would go to where Daniel was.

The Son of God was with the Father where He was [Above, in Heaven], and was sent into the world [Below, to earth], to be born of a virgin and become the Son of Man [Adam].

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:23




Again here is my answer, as you seem to try and contradict what beget or begotten actually means.

monogenēs - G3439 - single of its kind, only

1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

Here is another Greek word for begotten, that is used to describe Christ.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? Hebrews 1:5

gennaō - G1080 -

1. of men who fathered children
   1. to be born
   2. to be begotten
      1. of women giving birth to children
2. metaph.
   1. to engender, cause to arise, excite
   2. in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
   3. of God making Christ his son
   4. of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

The context of begotten is of spiritual birth, of which the angels, being sons of God were not begotten of God in this manner, as Christ was... since Christ Himself is God the Son, and creator of all things, being before all things.

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The context is unmistakable and can not be explained away, with human reasoning. Jesus Christ is God [Theos] and is the creator of the heavens and earth, being the heir to God the father's Throne and the firstborn only begotten Son of God... before all things. Colossians 1:17


Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

The companions here is a reference to angels, to whom the writer of Hebrews is referring to.

These angels were His companions, during the time He laid the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens, before he was sent from above, into the world beneath, to become the Son of Man.


Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



JLB

As usual, you did not answer my question or address my post, but simply cut and paste your previous post. If you don't know the answer, then just admit it.

I will ask my one simple question again;

Why are you posting about the word "monogenes" when the subject of this part of the thread is γεννηθέντα?