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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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J
jocor
Guest
The Holy Spirit is the divine influence and power of God (Father YHWH).
brother Paul
Member
You say "Simply put, to me it means that the Father's spoken words and thoughts are embodied in Yeshua. He is the fulfillment of Father Yahweh's words as given in the OT and as spoken to bring His Son into a physical existence in Mary's womb (He spoke his Son into existence miraculously)."
A problem here is that you are thinking about these things from the Greek but the writer thought as a Hebrew...the Jewish tradition as culminated in the 1st and 2nd centuries written down by the Targumim (in Jerusalem and Babylon) show that the "Word of God" was seen to be YHVH manifest, not just His words and thoughts...I can give you many examples from the Rabbis if you would like? This is the "sense" in which John is writing...thus He is "with" God and "IS" God....and He became manifest in the flesh....a very Jewish concept unfortunately other languages (like Greek ans Latin) cannot always convey this directly
A problem here is that you are thinking about these things from the Greek but the writer thought as a Hebrew...the Jewish tradition as culminated in the 1st and 2nd centuries written down by the Targumim (in Jerusalem and Babylon) show that the "Word of God" was seen to be YHVH manifest, not just His words and thoughts...I can give you many examples from the Rabbis if you would like? This is the "sense" in which John is writing...thus He is "with" God and "IS" God....and He became manifest in the flesh....a very Jewish concept unfortunately other languages (like Greek ans Latin) cannot always convey this directly
The scripture says these three are one.
What do you say?
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ = One
The Holy Spirit.
JLB
brother Paul
Member
There is only one God...they are the same...the "Spirit of Christ:" IS the Spirit and the Holy Spirit....when God anoints He does so with and through the Holy Spirit....Christ means "anointed one"....the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit in Messiah...Christ is the fullness of Deity "bodily"....God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself
brother Paul
Member
So you are an Arian! Notice that in Acts 5 when Ananias and Saphirra lie to the Holy Spirit Peter tells them they have lied to God....a force or influence cannot speak, teach, be lied to...it would not be personal...."He" is a personal pronoun always affiliated with the Spirit (not that He means a male but an active personal being)
J
jocor
Guest
Can you and JLB please just answer yes or no to the following question so I know what you believe?
Is the Son the Holy Spirit?
J
jocor
Guest
I am not an Arian since he believed the Son preexisted as a spirit being.
The Son is the Spirit of the Lord.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The scripture says these three are one.
What do you say?
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ = One
The Holy Spirit.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
The words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth," are a later addition to the text. The NIV Study Bible note says, “The addition is not found in any Greek manuscript or NT translation prior to the 16th century.”
The Greek scholar A. T. Robertson in A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, and in Word Pictures in the New Testament, writes:
At this point [1 John 5:7] the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, [No.] 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it, and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. Some Latin scribe caught up Cyprian’s exegesis and wrote it on the margin of his text, and so it got into the Vulgate and finally into the Textus Receptus by the stupidity of Erasmus.”
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
JocorWhen I asked my question in post #145, I had the Holy Spirit as a third person in mind which is what the creed seems to be teaching.
By giving me 2Co 3:17, you seem to be implying/teaching that the Lord" (Yeshua) is the "Spirit" (the Holy Spirit). Is that correct?
If so, how does that harmonize with the trinity doctrine as portrayed in the symbol below where the Son "Is Not" The Holy Spirit"?
It doesn't seem to me that you've been given a clear answer.
Your diagram is correct, of course, and the answer to your question is that the Holy Spirit is a person, just as The Father is a person and The Son is a person.
The Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, as you stated.
Mathew 28:19 is the perfect scripture to show the Triune God.
The apostles are to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Three separate persons of the ONE Godhead.
And re 2 Corinthians 3:17
The spirit is different from the Holy Spirit. The H. S. is a person. The spirit simply means the "spirit" of God or the spirit of the Son or the spirit of the Holy Ghost. See 2 Corinthians 3:6
It's the difference between the "spirit" of the Law and the letter of the Law. It does not refer to the 3rd person of the Triune God in this verse.
Verse 6. The spirit gives life. The spirit of Christ gives life. This is what it means.
This is what I mean about hanging onto every word. You have to have the concept straight and then understand that if something sounds wrong, you have to look into it because you know it must mean something else.
Wondering
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I can't think of a verse, specifically, that says to worship the Holy Spirit.
You had told me once that it was okay to worship Jesus even though He's not Yahweh because God sent Him as Messiah and gave Him the authority and thus it was okay to worship Him. You gave me the scripture from the O.T. which I cannot remember now.
Could we agree that this would be comparable? If the Holy Spirit as a person (not the H.S of God as in the O.T., which maybe could be separated out to be the 3rd person of the Triune God - this would require more study than I could have time to do) is a part of the Godhead, or Triune God, then He would also be God, just as we believe Jesus is God. Being God, it would be correct for us to worship Him. And if He weren't it would still be correct based on your belief that we could worship a messenger of God sent with God's authority.
Plus, I have to add that it's commonly accepted theology that the H.S. PROCEEDS from the Father and the Son. He's understood as being the living love that is shared between the Father and Son - their love became a person, the Holy Spirit. So if the H.S. proceeds from the Father and Son, he must also be God and thus we should worship Him.
The N.T. is about Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, which is why not a lot is written about Him.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Herein lies the problem. Jesus is not the fulfillment of Yahweh's words. HE IS Yahweh's words.
I'm sure you know the term "logos", which is the word used in John 1. Which also states that the Word (Jesus) was from the beginning.
Logos is the force by which everything was created. It's the wisdom, the reason, the very thought of God.
In looking up the Hebrew meaning of Logos, I came across the following from letusreason.org:
"The same John who wrote the gospel writes in Rev 19:13: And He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood: and His name is called the Word of God.” Who is the He? His name is called the word of God, not He is a word (as in speech). The word is a person, this same person is the Son of God in Rev.2:18, and Heb.1:2 God made the worlds through the Son.
The Bible calls the word a he, a him, not a thought, not a speech pattern, he is a person who existed at the same time as the Father. Jn.1:1 states the word was God who is a personal eternal being called the Son, the word is another name for the Son, but he is not A WORD SPOKEN. v.2 says, “He was in the beginning with God, and all things were made through Him.” the word is used to identify the Son of whom the Father made the worlds through (Heb.1). He antedates the beginning because he is the creator who existed before anything was made. He and Him means a person who existed simultaneously with the Father."
Although I find it difficult to explain logos, I feel the only important concept to understand is that Jesus is the Logos and that He existed from the beginning with God. John 1:1
These are not what I was referring to. I know these. You had stated a very specific verse saying God had given the Messiah (may not be the right word) authority, and you said this authority was enough to make worshipping Jesus correct. I was referring to the 1st Commandment in our discussion.
It's only important because...
Jocor, I was referring to the verse I'm speaking of above.
It was the only one you listed. So what I mean is that you can't take that one verse giving Messiah the authority and transfer it to Jesus. Once again, I have to repeat that we have to accept a complete concept.
Correct![/QUOTE]
This is important to understand. The Son and 2nd person of the Triune God always existed. Jesus, the man (who was 100% man and 100% God) was born 2,000 years ago. As the 2nd person He always existed and is the logos. As the person Jesus, he began His life here on earth when born of Mary.
Wondering
brother Paul
Member
No! The Holy Spirit was the agent of conception...He overshadowed the virgin and through the Spirit the Word became incarnate in her womb.
brother Paul
Member
So you do not believe the Son of God became the Son of Man so the sons of men could become the sons of God?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
This sounds so right Jocor. It's so reasonable. But there are so many ideas in the O.T. and N.T. that are so UNREASONABLE. God made the earth? How? He formed a man. He spoke to Noah. He wiped out humankind- which He had created. He asked His favorite to sacrifice his son for some strange reason, He spoke from a burning bush, He picked an unruly King, His prophets were put to death, He was born as a little baby to a normal family in a tiny town.
So, even though it sounds so right, it's not. The Holy Spirit has to be a person, or Jesus never would have said:
Mathew 28:19
If the Holy Spirit is God, why separate?
If the Holy Spirit is Jesus, why separate?
Why didn't He just say, baptize in my name
or baptize in the name of the Father
or baptize in the Father's name and My name
??
The Holy Spirit is not the divine influence.
If He's not God and a separate person, how are we to trust anything else in the N.T.?
Wondering
brother Paul
Member
After the 16th century? Hmm! Are you aware it has now been found in the Codex Ravianus of the 8th century and also is a natural part of the Old Latin text of the 2nd century, including manuscript r (from the 5th cent.), and the "Speculum?" Fuller, citing the work of Wilkinson, confirms that the passage was found Jerome's Vulgate (which was 4th century, and before Aleph or B). Also we have it in an "Italic" Bible dating from 157 AD.
In addition, Tertullian cited the passage in the 2nd century, followed by Cyprian in the 3rd, Priscillian in the 4th, and several African writers of the 5th. The Aleph and B do not include it but both are heavily edited and are mostly in disagreement with each other so we cannot go solely by these (although some today would like to convince us to do just that)
Some scholars like Burgeon and Ruckman see it as an omission in the places we find it missing.
But having said that, I find the origin seems to only appear in the Latin manuscripts (Tertulian and Cyprian are also latin fathers so for me it appears as an after thought placed into the text (adding to and taking away is a no no)...that does not change my faith one iota however because like I said the "Word" in Jewish tradition is YHVH manifest (I will give some examples in a next post).
brother Paul
Member
The concept of God’s “Word“ as a person, or as the temporal visible or audible expression of God, primarily has its roots in, and develops out of the Hebrew scriptures, and is also present in the non-Christian traditions (in the works, and commentaries) of the ancient 1st and 2nd century Rabbinical scholarship.
The summation of their perspectives and oral commentaries were represented and brought out in the Targums (100 B.C. to 200 A.D.). These were considered by many as nearly as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves! Sometimes different Rabbis brought out more subtle shades of meaning, and still others offered more unique renditions, supporting the traditions and teachings of their particular school of thought (of which there were a few) but in most places the Targums agreed.
Almost unanimously, in the various Targums, whenever YHVH is personified, or anthropomorphisms are being implied in the original language, or whenever YHVH is somehow made manifest to His chosen recipients, or when the scriptures seem to indicate more than one YHVH, the Rabbis referred to this expressed image of God, or appearances of YHVH Himself, as “the Word“ (the Memra)! This is exactly the application made by John in John 1:1. For example…in the Targum Jonathan on Genesis 19:24 Jonathan writes, “and the Memra (Word) of YHVH caused to descend upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven“. If you compare this passage in the Masoretic or the Septuagint, or even the KJV or NASV, this “Word of YHVH“ is referred here as the LORD (YHVH), yet here He is, sitting with father Abraham in his tent, in the form of a man, in the fields of Mamre, breaking bread. It takes little effort to see that this "Word of God" was actually believed by the Jewish Targumim to be none other than YHVH Himself manifest (either in the flesh or as a theophany).
On Exodus 24:1, The Targum Jonathan understands the scripture to be saying, “the Word of YHVH said to Moses, come up to YHVH“, and just previously in 20:1, he said, “and the Word of the LORD spoke all these glorious words“!
Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!
Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Word of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you”passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.
According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?
Finally, the Targums on Genesis 49:18 say that Jacob (Israel) waits for the yeshuah (salvation) that comes through the Memra (the Word of God), and on His yeshuah, Jacob’s soul hopes. Wow! Behold the Lamb! Therefore, wherever God manifests Himself to the people of God, even as the K’vod-YHVH (the Lord of Glory, or the Glory of the Lord) in the Sh’kan (the Shekinah). He is YHVH Himself, and at the same time He is the Word! Therefore, YHVH is the Word and the Word is YHVH! This is the written Torah that the Word is the living Torah!
There are many more examples I can point to if you’d like but these should suffice….the Word IS YHVH
The summation of their perspectives and oral commentaries were represented and brought out in the Targums (100 B.C. to 200 A.D.). These were considered by many as nearly as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves! Sometimes different Rabbis brought out more subtle shades of meaning, and still others offered more unique renditions, supporting the traditions and teachings of their particular school of thought (of which there were a few) but in most places the Targums agreed.
Almost unanimously, in the various Targums, whenever YHVH is personified, or anthropomorphisms are being implied in the original language, or whenever YHVH is somehow made manifest to His chosen recipients, or when the scriptures seem to indicate more than one YHVH, the Rabbis referred to this expressed image of God, or appearances of YHVH Himself, as “the Word“ (the Memra)! This is exactly the application made by John in John 1:1. For example…in the Targum Jonathan on Genesis 19:24 Jonathan writes, “and the Memra (Word) of YHVH caused to descend upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven“. If you compare this passage in the Masoretic or the Septuagint, or even the KJV or NASV, this “Word of YHVH“ is referred here as the LORD (YHVH), yet here He is, sitting with father Abraham in his tent, in the form of a man, in the fields of Mamre, breaking bread. It takes little effort to see that this "Word of God" was actually believed by the Jewish Targumim to be none other than YHVH Himself manifest (either in the flesh or as a theophany).
On Exodus 24:1, The Targum Jonathan understands the scripture to be saying, “the Word of YHVH said to Moses, come up to YHVH“, and just previously in 20:1, he said, “and the Word of the LORD spoke all these glorious words“!
Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!
Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Word of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you”passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.
According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?
Finally, the Targums on Genesis 49:18 say that Jacob (Israel) waits for the yeshuah (salvation) that comes through the Memra (the Word of God), and on His yeshuah, Jacob’s soul hopes. Wow! Behold the Lamb! Therefore, wherever God manifests Himself to the people of God, even as the K’vod-YHVH (the Lord of Glory, or the Glory of the Lord) in the Sh’kan (the Shekinah). He is YHVH Himself, and at the same time He is the Word! Therefore, YHVH is the Word and the Word is YHVH! This is the written Torah that the Word is the living Torah!
There are many more examples I can point to if you’d like but these should suffice….the Word IS YHVH
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Huh?
The Word is Yahweh?
Gee. I thought the Word was Jesus.
Are you Hebrew or Christian??
I thought Christians believed Jesus is the Word of God.
I thought that's what John meant in John 1:1
And HE knew Jesus.
Could John have been mistaken??
J
jocor
Guest
Thanks for your effort to answer my question, but I am not seeking to refute the trinity in this thread. I just want to know what Scriptural support the creed has in saying the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified (as a third person). Thanks, also, for your commentary on 2Co 3:17. I await JLB's reply to your commentary.
Scriptural concepts are developed from Scriptural words (Hebrew and Greek words for sure and English words if they are correctly translated from Hebrew or Greek). First understand the words, then develop the concepts. Then, if a view is raised that conflicts with either the concept or the words, it is unscriptural.