The Nicene Creed

[jocor]

I can't think of a verse, specifically, that says to worship the Holy Spirit.

You had told me once that it was okay to worship Jesus even though He's not Yahweh because God sent Him as Messiah and gave Him the authority and thus it was okay to worship Him. You gave me the scripture from the O.T. which I cannot remember now.

Perhaps you are referring to the following that I shared with you:

Heb 1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (the Son).
Also, the Hebrew word "shachah" and the Greek word "proskuneo" were not only used of worshiping Yahweh, but even mere men. Abraham, for example, "bowed down himself before the people of the land." Gen 23:12. The words "bowed down" are "shachah" in Hebrew. The Greek Septuagint uses the word "proskuneo" for "shachah". Rev 3:9 teaches us that mere men will be worshiped (proskuneo) by other men.

Could we agree that this would be comparable? If the Holy Spirit as a person (not the H.S of God as in the O.T., which maybe could be separated out to be the 3rd person of the Triune God - this would require more study than I could have time to do) is a part of the Godhead, or Triune God, then He would also be God, just as we believe Jesus is God. Being God, it would be correct for us to worship Him. And if He weren't it would still be correct based on your belief that we could worship a messenger of God sent with God's authority.

The reason I worship the Son is because His Father commands us to and because he deserves it.

Plus, I have to add that it's commonly accepted theology that the H.S. PROCEEDS from the Father and the Son. He's understood as being the living love that is shared between the Father and Son - their love became a person, the Holy Spirit.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit had a beginning as a person?

 

[jocor]

Herein lies the problem. Jesus is not the fulfillment of Yahweh's words. HE IS Yahweh's words.
I'm sure you know the term "logos", which is the word used in John 1. Which also states that the Word (Jesus) was from the beginning.

We have a fundamental disagreement with John 1 which I do not want to address in this thread. A PM would be more appropriate.

Logos is the force by which everything was created. It's the wisdom, the reason, the very thought of God.

I totally agree.

In looking up the Hebrew meaning of Logos, I came across the following from letusreason.org:

"The same John who wrote the gospel writes in Rev 19:13: And He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood: and His name is called the Word of God.” Who is the He? His name is called the word of God, not He is a word (as in speech). The word is a person, this same person is the Son of God in Rev.2:18, and Heb.1:2 God made the worlds through the Son.

I agree the word is a person now that it was made flesh. As I understand it, the "word/logos" was not a person prior to the Son's conception.

 

[jocor]

No! The Holy Spirit was the agent of conception...He overshadowed the virgin and through the Spirit the Word became incarnate in her womb.

I agree.

 

[jocor]

So you do not believe the Son of God became the Son of Man so the sons of men could become the sons of God?

I believe the moment the logos was made flesh via his conception in Mary's womb, he literally became the Son of God and the Son of Man. I believe he existed in the Father's mind/plan as the "Son of God", but not as a literal being prior to his conception. Yes, I do believe he became the Son of Man so the sons of men could become the sons of God.

 

[jocor]

This sounds so right Jocor. It's so reasonable. But there are so many ideas in the O.T. and N.T. that are so UNREASONABLE. God made the earth? How? He formed a man. He spoke to Noah. He wiped out humankind- which He had created. He asked His favorite to sacrifice his son for some strange reason, He spoke from a burning bush, He picked an unruly King, His prophets were put to death, He was born as a little baby to a normal family in a tiny town.

So, even though it sounds so right, it's not. The Holy Spirit has to be a person, or Jesus never would have said:
Mathew 28:19

If the Holy Spirit is God, why separate?
If the Holy Spirit is Jesus, why separate?

Why didn't He just say, baptize in my name
or baptize in the name of the Father
or baptize in the Father's name and My name
??

The Holy Spirit is not the divine influence.
If He's not God and a separate person, how are we to trust anything else in the N.T.?

Wondering

Good question, but this is not the thread to answer them.

 

[jocor]

After the 16th century? Hmm! Are you aware it has now been found in the Codex Ravianus of the 8th century and also is a natural part of the Old Latin text of the 2nd century, including manuscript r (from the 5th cent.), and the "Speculum?" Fuller, citing the work of Wilkinson, confirms that the passage was found Jerome's Vulgate (which was 4th century, and before Aleph or B). Also we have it in an "Italic" Bible dating from 157 AD.

The Codex Ravianus is a 16th century manuscript copied from the Complutensian Polyglot including its mistakes.

But having said that, I find the origin seems to only appear in the Latin manuscripts (Tertulian and Cyprian are also latin fathers so for me it appears as an after thought placed into the text (adding to and taking away is a no no)

I agree.

 

[jocor]

The concept of God’s “Word“ as a person, or as the temporal visible or audible expression of God, primarily has its roots in, and develops out of the Hebrew scriptures, and is also present in the non-Christian traditions (in the works, and commentaries) of the ancient 1st and 2nd century Rabbinical scholarship.

The summation of their perspectives and oral commentaries were represented and brought out in the Targums (100 B.C. to 200 A.D.). These were considered by many as nearly as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves! Sometimes different Rabbis brought out more subtle shades of meaning, and still others offered more unique renditions, supporting the traditions and teachings of their particular school of thought (of which there were a few) but in most places the Targums agreed.

Almost unanimously, in the various Targums, whenever YHVH is personified, or anthropomorphisms are being implied in the original language, or whenever YHVH is somehow made manifest to His chosen recipients, or when the scriptures seem to indicate more than one YHVH, the Rabbis referred to this expressed image of God, or appearances of YHVH Himself, as “the Word“ (the Memra)! This is exactly the application made by John in John 1:1. For example…in the Targum Jonathan on Genesis 19:24 Jonathan writes, “and the Memra (Word) of YHVH caused to descend upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven“. If you compare this passage in the Masoretic or the Septuagint, or even the KJV or NASV, this “Word of YHVH“ is referred here as the LORD (YHVH), yet here He is, sitting with father Abraham in his tent, in the form of a man, in the fields of Mamre, breaking bread. It takes little effort to see that this "Word of God" was actually believed by the Jewish Targumim to be none other than YHVH Himself manifest (either in the flesh or as a theophany).

On Exodus 24:1, The Targum Jonathan understands the scripture to be saying, “the Word of YHVH said to Moses, come up to YHVH“, and just previously in 20:1, he said, “and the Word of the LORD spoke all these glorious words“!

Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!

Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Word of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you”passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.


According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?


Finally, the Targums on Genesis 49:18 say that Jacob (Israel) waits for the yeshuah (salvation) that comes through the Memra (the Word of God), and on His yeshuah, Jacob’s soul hopes. Wow! Behold the Lamb! Therefore, wherever God manifests Himself to the people of God, even as the K’vod-YHVH (the Lord of Glory, or the Glory of the Lord) in the Sh’kan (the Shekinah). He is YHVH Himself, and at the same time He is the Word! Therefore, YHVH is the Word and the Word is YHVH! This is the written Torah that the Word is the living Torah!

There are many more examples I can point to if you’d like but these should suffice….the Word IS YHVH

I don't accept Jewish fables, especially when they add words to Yahweh's Word. The verses you quoted add the words "the Word of" to the Hebrew text. That alone should tell you to reject such documents.

 

[brother Paul]

Huh?
The Word is Yahweh?
Gee. I thought the Word was Jesus.
Are you Hebrew or Christian??
I thought Christians believed Jesus is the Word of God.
I thought that's what John meant in John 1:1
And HE knew Jesus.
Could John have been mistaken??

Nope! YHVH, the Son, became Jesus....YHVH is God and He became God with us. YHVH IS the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit (one in His Godhead and simultaneously three eternally distinct persons)

The Lord is the Father, the Lord is the Son/Word, and the Lord is the Spirit but there are not three Lord's only one.

Hear O'Israel, the Lord (YHVH) our God (Eliheinu), the Lord (YHVH) is one

NT says Hear OIsrael the Lord (Kyrios) our God (Theos), the Lord (Kyrios) is one

And "Unto us in the city of David is born unto you this day Christ (Messiah) THE Lord (the Kyrios)

not ""a" kyrios, THE Kyrios (the Lord - YHVH)

 

[brother Paul]

son

I don't accept Jewish fables, especially when they add words to Yahweh's Word. The verses you quoted add the words "the Word of" to the Hebrew text. That alone should tell you to reject such documents.

It just clarifies what "the Word of YHVH" meant to Hebrew thinkers (as opposed to your definition). The concept of "the Word" meant YHVH manifest....simple. So when John wrote this he was speaking directly to the diaspora Jews (especially the Rabbis)

 

[brother Paul]

Do you worship the Lord (YHVH)?..Well the Lord IS the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17). That IS the answer...

 

[jocor]

It just clarifies what "the Word of YHVH" meant to Hebrew thinkers (as opposed to your definition). The concept of "the Word" meant YHVH manifest....simple. So when John wrote this he was speaking directly to the diaspora Jews (especially the Rabbis)

I was asked, "Could you please explain what it means to you that Jesus is the "Word" of God?" That phrase, as it pertains to Yeshua, is only found in Rev 19:13;

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
​

I answered accordingly. I was not asked about "the Word of YHVH". That phrase is not found in the KJV. Instead, we find "the word of the LORD." "Word" is not capitalized because it doesn't refer to a person, but to Yahweh's words spoken to someone (usually a prophet).

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
​

This refers to the word of YHWH spoken by the prophets.

The "Hebrew thinkers" who wrote the Targums did not have Yeshua in mind when they wrote.

 

[jocor]

Do you worship the Lord (YHVH)?..Well the Lord IS the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17). That IS the answer...

Yes, I worship YHWH (who is the Father). I totally reject your inference that the Lord of 2Co 3:17 is YHVH the Son.

 

[JLB]

I was asked, "Could you please explain what it means to you that Jesus is the "Word" of God?" That phrase, as it pertains to Yeshua, is only found in Rev 19:13;

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
​

I answered accordingly. I was not asked about "the Word of YHVH". That phrase is not found in the KJV. Instead, we find "the word of the LORD." "Word" is not capitalized because it doesn't refer to a person, but to Yahweh's words spoken to someone (usually a prophet).

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
​

This refers to the word of YHWH spoken by the prophets.

The "Hebrew thinkers" who wrote the Targums did not have Yeshua in mind when they wrote.

God includes the Father, the Word and The Holy Spirit.


God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by HisSon, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1;1-4


...and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Jesus upholds all things by the word of His power... Because He is God, the Son.


As Hebrews goes on to say... The Father calls His Son... God, and the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the Heavens are the work of His hands!

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


When you deny Jesus as The God who created the heavens and the earth, then you have denied Him as Lord.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for your effort to answer my question, but I am not seeking to refute the trinity in this thread. I just want to know what Scriptural support the creed has in saying the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified (as a third person). Thanks, also, for your commentary on 2Co 3:17. I await JLB's reply to your commentary.


Scriptural concepts are developed from Scriptural words (Hebrew and Greek words for sure and English words if they are correctly translated from Hebrew or Greek). First understand the words, then develop the concepts. Then, if a view is raised that conflicts with either the concept or the words, it is unscriptural.

Jocor
I was answering this question of yours to JLB and Brother Paul:
Can you and JLB please just answer yes or no to the following question so I know what you believe?
Is the Son the Holy Spirit?

My answer is NO. The Son is the Son, He is NOT the Holy Spirit. I don't know why the answer can't be this simple.

And, yes, I understand about words and Hebrew and Greek. I see these studies you guys do and it pretty much boggles my mind which is why I keep out of it. I'm saying that maybe these words are not that important in understanding the overall picture. How does God speak to Man?? It's almost impossible.
How are we to understand God?? That's what I'm saying. To go with a big concept and not to dwell on words. It's just what I believe.

Re scriptural support for the creed saying we should worship the Holy Spirit. I know catholic doctrine well and this is how they explain it and they are the ones who wrote up the creeds.
The Holy Spirit is God. God is to be worshipped. Short version.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps you are referring to the following that I shared with you:

Heb 1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (the Son).
Also, the Hebrew word "shachah" and the Greek word "proskuneo" were not only used of worshiping Yahweh, but even mere men. Abraham, for example, "bowed down himself before the people of the land." Gen 23:12. The words "bowed down" are "shachah" in Hebrew. The Greek Septuagint uses the word "proskuneo" for "shachah". Rev 3:9 teaches us that mere men will be worshiped (proskuneo) by other men.

Thanks Jocor. The above is what I was looking for re worshipping Jesus even though He is not God, as you understand it, and why He could be worshipped even as a man.

The reason I worship the Son is because His Father commands us to and because he deserves it.

You see, here we get back to what I was saying regarding "words". I hate to be simple about this. So you explained how the Hebrew and Greek words would allow you to worship a man. But, and I repeat, how do you get around the 1st Commandment?? How about Deuteronomy 6:4? You're concentrating on specific scripture to support your view, but the OVERALL picture is that we are NOT to worship a man.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit had a beginning as a person?

The Holy Spirit did not have a beginning. Being God, and believing that God always existed, then the Holy Spirit always existed too. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be separated. They always were.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question, but this is not the thread to answer them.

I have to stop doing this but cannot!
Romans 7 and 8!!
My questions were rhetorical...
I sometimes do this to make a point without going into a lot of detail.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope! YHVH, the Son, became Jesus....YHVH is God and He became God with us. YHVH IS the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit (one in His Godhead and simultaneously three eternally distinct persons)

The Lord is the Father, the Lord is the Son/Word, and the Lord is the Spirit but there are not three Lord's only one.

Hear O'Israel, the Lord (YHVH) our God (Eliheinu), the Lord (YHVH) is one

NT says Hear OIsrael the Lord (Kyrios) our God (Theos), the Lord (Kyrios) is one

And "Unto us in the city of David is born unto you this day Christ (Messiah) THE Lord (the Kyrios)

not ""a" kyrios, THE Kyrios (the Lord - YHVH)

You know Brother Paul
It's no wonder there's so much confusion about the Trintiy, Triune God, Godhead, or whatever else you wish to call it.

You said the Word was Yahweh.
The Word is Jesus.
John 1:1

Now you could believe whatever you want since we seem to be dealing with nuances I'm not familiar with, but if you want to call yourself a Christian, then you have to accept the Christian understanding of the Trinity, Triune God, Godhead, or whatever you want to call it.

John 1:1 says that the WORD became flesh. WHO became flesh? (there I go again with rhetorical questions).
Did God the Father become flesh?
Did the Holy Spirit become flesh?

NO. The SON became flesh, the 2nd person of the Trinity, Triune God, Godhead, or whatever you want to call it.

THE FATHER, YAHWEH did NOT become FLESH.

Maybe if all Christians believed in the Trinity, as made up by the early Christians, these word games would not exist. To say nothing of unorthodox beliefs. I respect Jocor, at least he says he's not orthodox and might just be trying to understand what we believe OR he might be trying to convince us, I don't know. But people calling themselves Christian must adhere to the Christian understanding of Trinity.

Wondering
P.S. Just to clarify. You say YAHWEH the Son became man. Could we use Yahweh to mean God the Father, the Almighty, the one who Created, the one who has the providence. Could we keep Father, Son and Holy Spirit in their correct offices? So we could stick to the discussion at hand and not have to wonder WHO anyone is talking about. Do you not believe that Yahweh is the Father??

 

[jocor]

Jocor
I was answering this question of yours to JLB and Brother Paul:
Can you and JLB please just answer yes or no to the following question so I know what you believe?
Is the Son the Holy Spirit?

My answer is NO. The Son is the Son, He is NOT the Holy Spirit. I don't know why the answer can't be this simple.

I totally agree and it is that simple.

And, yes, I understand about words and Hebrew and Greek. I see these studies you guys do and it pretty much boggles my mind which is why I keep out of it. I'm saying that maybe these words are not that important in understanding the overall picture. How does God speak to Man?? It's almost impossible.
How are we to understand God?? That's what I'm saying. To go with a big concept and not to dwell on words. It's just what I believe.

Our "big concept" can ONLY be formulated from little words found in Scripture.

Re scriptural support for the creed saying we should worship the Holy Spirit. I know catholic doctrine well and this is how they explain it and they are the ones who wrote up the creeds.
The Holy Spirit is God. God is to be worshipped. Short version.

Wondering

The Holy Spirit is a part of God. When I worship God, I worship Him, not a third person called the Holy Spirit. Whether or not the Holy Spirit is a third person is not the purpose of this thread, but I would be glad to discuss it privately or if an administrator gives me permission to here. Otherwise, I risk violating forum rules.

I will answer your other post after work. Have a great day!

 

[GodsGrace]

I totally agree and it is that simple.


Our "big concept" can ONLY be formulated from little words found in Scripture.


The Holy Spirit is a part of God. When I worship God, I worship Him, not a third person called the Holy Spirit. Whether or not the Holy Spirit is a third person is not the purpose of this thread, but I would be glad to discuss it privately or if an administrator gives me permission to here. Otherwise, I risk violating forum rules.

I will answer your other post after work. Have a great day!

To your concept reply:

I agree that concepts are made up of words. The three creeds (4 really) were created by studying words in the N.T. The creeds is what Christians are supposed to believe. Yes. It required much study.

But now that study in complete. The words have been studied. The creeds have been written.
The concepts have been created.

We need only to accept them if we're to call ourselves a Christian.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

"Could you please explain what it means to you that Jesus is the "Word" of God?" That phrase, as it pertains to Yeshua, is only found in Rev 19:13;

The Son expressed God's will, and is the Word that created and upholds all things.

It was the Father's will that there was light.
The Son, Word, Spoke light out of darkness.
The Holy Spirit, manifested the word light, and light became.

Anytime, you try and deny the plurality of God, Elohim, you violate the integrity of scripture and deny Jesus as Lord.


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

The Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit are the three that are Us.

has in these last days spoken to us by HisSon, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

... through whom also He made the worlds;

Whom is a reference to a person. His name is Jesus.

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God [ The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit] created the heavens and the earth.


Anytime you dismantle and deny, that God Elohim is plural, then you are taking away from the word and deceiving both yourself and those who hear you.


Jesus is Eternal, and is before all things.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17


who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power.

...upholding all things by the word of His power.

Not "it's" power... His power.



JLB