The only Higher education

[Heidi]

So please provide scripture telling us to put our faith in man rather than God alone. if you cannot, then it's you who's doing a disservice to me, to Joe and to God. So unless you provide scripture backing up your beliefs and proving ours wrong, your whole posts are nothing more than a personal attack and I won't listen to them any more. :angry

 

[Sparkey]

Gee. Golly gee.
I remember when I was "yet in my sin" and also remember the actions of my Savior, Christ Jesus, toward me even then.

Signed,
~Just me.

Oh, I'd also like to say, "Nice post there, Joe. Thanks."

Still me,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[Heidi]

In fact, I'll make it very easy for you, Free. I'll just quote scripture like I've already done:

Isaiah 2:22, "Stop trusting in man who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?"

Psalm 49:13-14, "This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers who approve of their sayings. Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them."

MT. 23:10, "And do not be called teacher for you have one teacher and that is the Christ."

Psalm 146:3-4, "Do not put your trust in princes or in mortal men who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground and their plans come to nothing."

1 Corinthians 3:19, "for the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight."

1 John 4:5, "They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world and the world listens to them. We are from God and whoever is from God listens to us. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

for starters. Those are God's words, not mine. so I haven't twisted anything. I haven't added my words or subtracted from God's words. All you have to do is believe them.

 

[azlan88]

Let's have a happy discussion about what we loved most about our "higher education" experiences. For me, in earthly terms, my best college experience was my world history course. My professor was a Cuban refugee, and she was highly educated, provocative, and she loved Greek culture, something that we both shared. I was her prized student, and with much hard work and honing of my auditory skills (she preferred an oral presentation), I passed with a proud A!

 

[Heidi]

Let's have a happy discussion about what we loved most about our "higher education" experiences. For me, in earthly terms, my best college experience was my world history course. My professor was a Cuban refugee, and she was highly educated, provocative, and she loved Greek culture, something that we both shared. I was her prized student, and with much hard work and honing of my auditory skills (she preferred an oral presentation), I passed with a proud A!

I'd love to. But when Free accuses us of doing a disservice to Christianity by falsely claiming that I have twisted scripture when all I've done is quoted scripture, yet he provides zero scripture for his claims, then he is causing dissention. he doesn't understand that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood." Personally attacking people doesn't change one word in scripture. So it's a complete waste of time. He needs to stick to scripture.

 

[westtexas]

Colossians 3:23--And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (KJV)

Joe and Heidi, you don't feel that there are Godly men and women who chose the profession of teaching? As for me, I decided to quit school (35 years ago) and go to work in the Texas oilfields, MANY is the day when I am working in the Texas heat or snow that I wished I had stayed in school!

Westtexas

P.S. edited to add---If it's OK to ask I'd be curious to know what your profession is.You didn't need school to do whatever it is?

 

[Heidi]

Colossians 3:23--And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (KJV)

Joe and Heidi, you don't feel that there are Godly men and women who chose the profession of teaching? As for me, I decided to quit school (35 years ago) and go to work in the Texas oilfields, MANY is the day when I am working in the Texas heat or snow that I wished I had stayed in school!

Westtexas

I have to go with Jesus in MT. 23:10 as always. That means that anyone who is passing along the teachings of Christ without contradicting any of his words, then we are still only learning from Christ. ;)

But John makes it clear in 1 John 4:5, the difference between worldly beliefs and godly beliefs. Non-Christian universities belong to the world and they speak from the viewpoint of the world. So again, I have to go with scripture.

 

[westtexas]

Did you see my edit? I'd be curious to know what line of work you are in.

Westtexas

 

[Heidi]

Did you see my edit? I'd be curious to know what line of work you are in.

Westtexas

Right now I'm a housewife and a volunteer. God tells us to lead a simple life and to work with our hands, avoid selfish ambition and greed.

However, in this insane world, for someone to get a good job, then unfortunately, it's at times necessary to earn an earthly degree. But while doing so, a Christian must remember that his first allegiance is to God and His word, not to the words of human beings. Thus, if one feels compelled to earn an earthly degree, then he can take what his teachers say with a grain of salt. But I no more call it higher education than I believe that evolutionary scientists know better than God does what the truth is about our origin.

 

[Free]

But when Free accuses us of doing a disservice to Christianity by falsely claiming that I have twisted scripture when all I've done is quoted scripture, yet he provides zero scripture for his claims, then he is causing dissention.

Wow Heidi. You really can't see that my questions pertain to the Scripture you claim supports your position, can't you? I am merely trying to show how the passages you are using do not support your claims.

Let's try again:

You stated: "Sorry but as I pointed out, the education that goes beyond high school is nothing more than confusion and lies that promote sin."

And in support you use this passage:

MT. 23:10, "And do not be called teacher for you have one teacher and that is the Christ."

So, in light of the above, what is the difference between a teacher in grade 1 and a university professor? What about pastors, Bible teachers, and Sunday school teachers, since none of them are Jesus? How does Matt 23:10 apply only to post-secondary education and no other education?

All I ask is that you explain that to me.

 

[Lewis]

Wow Heidi, like where have you been ?

 

[Heidi]

First of all, elementary school isn't called higher education. It teaches people basic things like reading writing and the arithmetic they need to get through life. In fact, the Amish mostly don't go beyond an 8th grade education and never past high school because they live off the principles of the bible.

Again, since Jesus is never wrong, then when Christians and pastors pass along the teachings of Christ without contradicting any of Christ's words, then we're still only learning from Christ. But University professors do not pass along the teachings of Christ as the truth. In fact, in most cases, they try to prove that scientists know better than Jesus does. So Jesus is telling us that only God is completely trustworthy.

 

[westtexas]

But when Free accuses us of doing a disservice to Christianity by falsely claiming that I have twisted scripture when all I've done is quoted scripture, yet he provides zero scripture for his claims, then he is causing dissention.

Wow Heidi. You really can't see that my questions pertain to the Scripture you claim supports your position, can't you? I am merely trying to show how the passages you are using do not support your claims.

Let's try again:

You stated: "Sorry but as I pointed out, the education that goes beyond high school is nothing more than confusion and lies that promote sin."

And in support you use this passage:

MT. 23:10, "And do not be called teacher for you have one teacher and that is the Christ."

So, in light of the above, what is the difference between a teacher in grade 1 and a university professor? What about pastors, Bible teachers, and Sunday school teachers, since none of them are Jesus? How does Matt 23:10 apply only to post-secondary education and no other education?

All I ask is that you explain that to me.

It's a good point Free. There are also Godly men and women in any other profession that anyone can name. Ungodly ones too!!

Westtexas

 

[Heidi]

Free still hasn't provided any scripture that tells us to put our trust in man rather than God. I'm still waiting.

 

[Heidi]

It's a good point Free. There are also Godly men and women in any other profession that anyone can name. Ungodly ones too!!

And if godly men are passing along the teachings of Christ without contradicting any of his words, then Jesus is still our teacher and he gets the credit for our godliness. :amen

 

[Sparkey]

Love: The only Higher education

I guess my point of view is that yes, there are lots of things that the Lord can protect me from. The leaven of the Pharisees being just one. As one who is self-educated only and ardent for the Lord may I not also appreciate the education and knowledge that I've never had?

I have respect for my brothers and sisters in Christ who have also worked diligently to achieve greater degrees of education and also have respect for students who are doing this very thing even now. How can I unilaterally denounce such people with a right heart when I am simultaneously envious of the knowledge that God is pouring out upon the whole earth.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
_________________
FOOTNOTE: "knowledge" per Strong's
דּעת
da‛ath
dah'-ath
From H3045; knowledge: - cunning, [ig-] norantly, know(-ledge), [un-] awares (wittingly).

Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?
And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

This is the same kind of knowledge that was spoken of in Daniel 12 <the exact same word: dah'-ath> that Solomon asked for. Notice that knowledge itself isn't evil and that God pointed out that Solomon had asked for a good thing and to put it to good use.

Notice also in Exodus about skilled artisans:

• And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; [/*:m:cvz44k82]
• And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, [/*:m:cvz44k82]
• And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work. [/*:m:cvz44k82]
• And he hath put in his heart that he may teach,[/*:m:cvz44k82]

...

Solomons knowledge was "head knowledge". King Solomon was a botanist, a herbalist and a horticulturalist, a zoologist, an architect and poet as well. Solomon studied the creation itself to better understand God. This is similar to modern day students who want to follow the Lord with all their heart. If we turn to Ecclesiastics we can see his thoughts regarding world view philosophies such as Existentialism and his view of Philosophy itself. This "knowledge" was given to him because his purpose pleased the Lord and in addition he also became exceedingly rich in blessing not only on earth but in heaven also.

His highest goal (at the conclusion of Ecclesiastes) was to obey the Lord. He was backslidden and spoke the best goal in life --"Obey the Lord." All of the knowledge that was given to him was not able to slay him nor prevent the Love of God from reaching him no matter when he went. We need to be reproved by the word given to James, "Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

When we turn to the New Testament and examine the Greek the word Gnosis comes into play. This word is also oftentimes translated "knowledge" meaning 'general intelligence'.

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
____________________
FOOTNOTE: "knowledge"
γνῶÃιÂ
gnÃ…Âsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

In conclusion, we can not castigate scholars who love to seek God and do so rightly as they follow the calling God has placed on them to be knowledge seekers. Certainly if knowledge itself becomes "god" that's evil and idolatry but who may declare motivations except He who searches hearts, the only righteous and true, the only just judge of all, Christ Jesus.

So if there is word of revelation, by all means let us hear it. If there is a word of reproof then let us be edified and receive it willingly. If there is a word of exhortation? Let it be spoken. If there is a word of Knowledge given by the Spirit of God or a word of Wisdom also by the Spirit who works all things into the Body of Christ, then yes, certainly let us hear.

If we have opinions and are but men? Then what? Well, let us declare our opinions well and receive the opinions of others with the same eagerness that we reserve for ourselves. Shall we fail to love others as we love ourselves? May it never be.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[WX2009]

And if godly men are passing along the teachings of Christ without contradicting any of his words, then Jesus is still our teacher and he gets the credit for our godliness. :amen

Free still hasn't provided any scripture that tells us to put our trust in man rather than God. I'm still waiting.

The issue about education shouldn't put into question who your ultimate trust is in. The bible says that we can weigh the morality of all things we encounter and examine it thoroughly according to His word. Not going to college is not going to keep you "safe" from encountering evil anyway. The apostle Paul had the nowadays equivalent of two Ph.D's before the age of 21. We're talking a massive amount of education....he was a scholar. He was also an evil man, a killer of Christians. At his feet were strewn the clothes of the first Christian martyr, Stephen. His encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus changed everything. God's greatness is such that man's attempts to lead us astray will fail and fail miserably if we cling to His truth. God's greatness/truth >>>> man's mediocrity/lies
I believe if God is capable of using even the most evil of people to do His will (and He has demonstrated countless times in His word that He is), then I see no reason why we should fear education at the university level, or any other kind of education provided that we know how to separate the truth from the lies. For that, we have God's word and the Holy Spirit to give us direction.
Jesus always gets the credit for every good thing that He allows into our lives, He says so in His word:

2 I say to the LORD, "You are my Lord; apart from you I have no good thing." Psalm 16:2

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (James 1:17)

A good education is one of those gifts and we certainly should give the credit to God for the opportunity. I know that I do. However, we can learn things even from those who are ungodly. Paul writes in his letters that we would have to leave this world in order to escape from evil completely. Our world is full of evil because of the sin curse and that is a fact that we should not deal with by hiding from.

 

[Heidi]

The bible says nothing about seeking a good education from the secular world. You've heard that from men, not God. But that just proves my point. When your one teacher is not Christ, you will be led astray by the fallible human opinions of men. In fact, the bible says the opposite:

Isaiah 2:22, "Stop trusting in man who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?"

1 Corinthians 3:19, "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight."

1 Corinthians 1:20, "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

1 Corinthians 1:19, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

1 John 4:5, "They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world and the world will listen to them. We are from God and whatever is from God listens to us. But whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

Psalm 146:3, "Do not put your trust in princes or in mortal men who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."

Psalm 49:13-14, "This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and their followers who approve of their sayings. Like sheep, they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them."

MT. 23:10, "and do not be called teacher for you have one teacher and that is Christ."

Psalm 64:6, "Surely the mind and heart of man are cunning."

So the bible clearly tells us to put our faith in God alone. The heart and minds of men are cunning without the Holy Spirit. And those with the Holy Spirit do not adopt secular beliefs. So if we don't put our trust in God alone then we can't spot a false teacher if he stood right in front of us.

 

[Free]

First of all, elementary school isn't called higher education. It teaches people basic things like reading writing and the arithmetic they need to get through life.

I am well aware that elementary school isn't called higher education; that is not the point I was making. The point is, if you want to argue that higher education is secular and use Matt 23:10 as support that our only teacher is Jesus, then it follows that all education prior to post-secondary, since it is also secular, is evil.

Do you not know that they begin teaching that homosexuality is good in elementary? Are you not aware that worldly philosophy in education begins in the earliest level of education?

Your position is very inconsistent.

Again, since Jesus is never wrong, then when Christians and pastors pass along the teachings of Christ without contradicting any of Christ's words, then we're still only learning from Christ. But University professors do not pass along the teachings of Christ as the truth. In fact, in most cases, they try to prove that scientists know better than Jesus does. So Jesus is telling us that only God is completely trustworthy.

A few things to note:

1. Most every pastor and Bible teacher has a post-secondary education and likely all of them have taken "secular" courses.
2. You incorrectly equate higher education with science as though that is all it is. Even then, you fail to differentiate that portion of science which is bad and that which is not.
3. Much of higher education is amoral. Is there evil in knowing how to figure out the volume of a sphere using triple integrals? Is there evil in knowing how chemicals combine to form other chemicals? One could give endless examples.

Here is the main problem Heidi:

You have created a false dichotomy between the higher education of man and the "higher education of God". In doing so, you ignore the fact that all truth is God's truth, whether it comes through a Bible teacher or a physics professor or philosophy professor or whomever. Are there things taught that are contrary to the Bible? Of course, no one is denying that, but that happens from the earliest education onward and is not something found only in higher education.

The problem is only for those weak in the faith or lacking discernment and godly wisdom. But I would strongly question why someone would want to remain ignorant about what the world teaches anyway. How can one have any meaningful dialogue with those of the world if they don't have an understanding of what it is they really believe? Paul was well versed in the Greek philosophy of his day and used it to his advantage when doing his apologetics. Indeed, how can one become all things to all men in the hopes of saving some of them, if they know very little of what it is those men believe?

As WX2009 correctly pointed out, getting a higher education has nothing to do with "putting your trust in man". It has everything to do with loving God with all your mind, with honouring God with all the talents and abilities he has given you. That is what I have been driving at with all these questions.

And since you haven't answered my questions, I'll give you the answers:

Just as it was Christians who first brought education to women and to those in lower classes, so it was Christians who started universities. They did this based on their Christian convictions, based on what the Bible says.

Similarly, modern science was founded on the main premise that since God created the universe, there would be laws and rational order that could be discovered.

 

[Free]

The bible says nothing about seeking a good education from the secular world.

Which brings me to my next point, that I have mentioned elsewhere:

It also says nothing about using a computer to access the Internet to tell people how evil a post-secondary education is. Do you own a car? Do you drive it on your city's streets? What about a house; do you live in one, maybe even own it? Do you have a microwave and maybe even electricity?

The point is this: every single day, many times per day, you rely on technology that is developed by those with a higher education. This means you are fully supporting a higher education with your actions while denouncing it with your mouth. What do you think Bible says about doing that?