The only Higher education

[Heidi]

The point is, if you want to argue that higher education is secular and use Matt 23:10 as support that our only teacher is Jesus, then it follows that all education prior to post-secondary, since it is also secular, is evil.

Free,

If Jesus were alive today, do you think that he would go to a university to learn anything? No, because the only true knowledge is what comes from God. 1 Corinthians 2:15, "But we have the mind of Christ." So since we have Christ's mind, then why do you think that Jesus would tell us to learn from the secular world? :o he doesn't. He tells us; "And do not be called teacher for you have one teacher and that is Christ."

Psalm 119:99, "I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statues." That means that anyone who meditates on God's word has more insight than all of his teachers who do not meditate on God's word.

So once again, instead of speaking on your own, you need to speak from scripture which you have yet to do regarding this issue. So I will not argue with people whose authority is not scripture, but instead, their own human opinions. The opinions of people can't even compare to God's word, which is exactly my point. We true Christians do not belong to the world as John 15:19 explains.

 

[Free]

So that shows you are not even reading what I wrote since I appealed to Scripture twice. You are not even addressing the arguments I am making regarding you understanding of Scripture. Is it because you don't understand them? Is there anything I need to make clearer?

 

[Heidi]

So that shows you are not even reading what I wrote since I appealed to Scripture twice. You are not even addressing the arguments I am making regarding you understanding of Scripture. Is it because you don't understand them? Is there anything I need to make clearer?

Twice? :o I would have to wade through your human opinion to find it. But I guarantee you it will not contradict the myriad of scipture I posted. ;) The quote from Daniel by Sparrow simply stated that men will be in search of knowledge which the secular world is always doing since they don't listen to God. They will observe the way God created the world but their plans will still come to nothing because they are not gods. Their words will die when they die, never to be heard again.Only God's word lasts forever.

But you can put your faith in secular university professors if you like. But I have shown you much scripture telling us not to do that because I guarantee you they are not omniscient any more than they can save you on your deathbed. I'll go with Jesus that we have one teacher and that is Christ. :amen

 

[Sparkey]

Equivocation* is classified as both a formal and informal fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense. Heidi's choice phrase "Higher Education" is a word play; the phrase is being used in two different senses and although the distinction is not immediately apparent, it does become obvious upon a moment's reflection.

Using a play on words is okay <I guess> in most instances but it certainly can not be used to establish doctrine. "Higher Education", meaning education from a 'higher power' (God) vs. "Higher Education" meaning education beyond High School is more than a bit arbitrary. Did Jesus attend High School? Middle School? Private School? Parochial School?

Which Scripture exactly is used to unequivocally state "any education" beyond the 12th Grade level in the United States educational system is sin and folly? I never read that in my bible. Chapter and verse is needed not more speculation and teaching by "man".

End of story.

_____________________________________________
FOOTNOTE: Equivocation*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

 

[Heidi]

Equivocation* is classified as both a formal and informal fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense.

Using a play on words is okay I guess but it certainly can not be used to establish doctrine. "Higher Education" meaning education from a 'higher power' (God) vs. "Higher Education" meaning education beyond High School is more than a bit arbitrary to me. Did Jesus attend High School? Middle School? Private School? Parochial School?

Which Scripture exactly was used to say that any education beyond the 12th Grade level in the United States is what? Is sin and folly? I never read that in my bible.

End of story.

_____________________________________________
FOOTNOTE: Equivocation*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

Actually the scriptures I quoted all said not to trust man. that includes any "wisdom" that comes from the mind of MAN. Only God's wisdom is the infallible truth. The scriptures I quoted from 1 Corinthians tells us that God even destroys the "wisdom" of those who are considered scholars . So what part of that do you not understand?

 

[Sparkey]

How do you exclude your self from "man" when you teach.

THAT's the part I don't understand.

Repeating here: "Which Scripture exactly is used to unequivocally state "any education" beyond the 12th Grade level in the United States educational system is sin and folly?"

Actually the scriptures I quoted all said not to trust man. that includes any "wisdom" that comes from the mind of MAN. Only God's wisdom is the infallible truth. The scriptures I quoted from 1 Corinthians tells us that God even destroys the "wisdom" of those who are considered scholars . So what part of that do you not understand?

 

[Heidi]

How do you exclude your self from "man" when you teach.

THAT's the part I don't understand.

I quote and believe scripture because Christ is my only teacher. ;) But when my beliefs disagree with scripture, then I'm speaking on my own and my words are not trustworthy. "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself. But the one who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth. There is nothing false about him."that's why we literally have to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God so we know who's speaking the truth and who's speaking falsely.

So read 1 John 4:5 to see that we recognize the spirit of truth and falsehood by whether we listen to God or worldly beliefs. The secular world is ruled by Satan who's the father of lies. So why then would you trust Satan's servants? :gah

 

[Aero_Hudson]

How do you exclude your self from "man" when you teach.

THAT's the part I don't understand.

I quote and believe scripture because Christ is my only teacher. ;) But when my beliefs disagree with scripture, then I'm speaking on my own and my words are not trustworthy. "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself. But the one who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth. There is nothing false about him."that's why we literally have to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God so we know who's speaking the truth and who's speaking falsely.

So read 1 John 4:5 to see that we recognize the spirit of truth and falsehood by whether we listen to God or worldly beliefs. The secular world is ruled by Satan who's the father of lies. So why then would you trust Satan's servants? :gah

A couple of questions for you...

- Does mathematical concepts "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Chemistry "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Archeology "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Biology "disagree" with scripture?
- Does anything that gives us a better understanding of how God's world works "disagree" with scripture?

It is God's world afterall. Should we not try to understand how it works? If I am a rocket scientist, is it possible that I can use my position, knowledge and experience to further the kingdom of God?

 

[Sparkey]

You state that "Christ is my only teacher."
Really? Who taught you to type? Who taught you to read and write?
Who taught you to use computers? I could go on and on, of course. Try to stop purposefully misunderstanding.

Your mention of an education system (up to the 12th grade level) and sanction of that particular level of education comes from what source? Is that purely from you and you alone? My assumption was that this was the educational system of the United States, is that correct? Who taught you that? Jesus?

Why would you discredit those teachers who taught you prior to college or university level?
They didn't teach you? Is that what you are saying now? Makes you sound like an ungrateful child but I know this isn't you. It just sounds like it and perhaps that's just me. I am jealous of your educational level. My G.E.D. wasn't achieved until I was 50 years old.

I've stated that your arbitrary boundary (up to but not beyond the 12th grade) is not from Scripture. Disagree with me if you want, who cares? Continue to say that "higher education" means the same thing as "beyond high school in the United States" and lie to yourself as much as you like but to teach false things to others and to insist beyond reasonable reply is to prove yourself unwilling. Nothing more. Prove me wrong if you are able.

~Sparrowhawke

I quote and believe scripture because Christ is my only teacher.

 

[Heidi]

How do you exclude your self from "man" when you teach.

THAT's the part I don't understand.

I quote and believe scripture because Christ is my only teacher. ;) But when my beliefs disagree with scripture, then I'm speaking on my own and my words are not trustworthy. "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself. But the one who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth. There is nothing false about him."that's why we literally have to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God so we know who's speaking the truth and who's speaking falsely.

So read 1 John 4:5 to see that we recognize the spirit of truth and falsehood by whether we listen to God or worldly beliefs. The secular world is ruled by Satan who's the father of lies. So why then would you trust Satan's servants? :gah

A couple of questions for you...

- Does mathematical concepts "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Chemistry "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Archeology "disagree" with scripture?
- Does Biology "disagree" with scripture?
- Does anything that gives us a better understanding of how God's world works "disagree" with scripture?

It is God's world afterall. Should we not try to understand how it works? If I am a rocket scientist, is it possible that I can use my position, knowledge and experience to further the kingdom of God?

As i demonstrated in my threads on foundation; biology absolutely disagree with scripture because evolution teaches that something superior can come from something superior; the clay forms the potter and that animals can breed human descendants which disagrees with reality and with scripture that each animal breeding its own kind. It also disagrees with Genesis 2:7.

Archeology absolutely disagrees with scripture because all archeologists do is make up stories about the skulls and bones they find. They thus find bones they can't identify, then piece together [b whole new creatures never before mentioned in history and claim that Adam was not the first man. [/b]

Chemists are often wrong because they have made incorrect deductions about the interaction between the particles that God created. That's why there are so many drug recalls.

And mathmeticians are often wrong which is so many of them spend so much times trying to understand God's creation.

So again, when you worship people with degrees as infallible gods, you will be led not only down a path of lies, but straight on the road to destruction.

So again, you need to read and believe 1 John 4:5 to see that worldly beliefs come from the spirit of falsehood. If you don't believe that verse, then nothing I can say will change your mind.

 

[Sparkey]

How do you exclude your self from "man" when you teach.

THAT's the part I don't understand.

I quote and believe scripture because Christ is my only teacher. ;) But when my beliefs disagree with scripture, then I'm speaking on my own and my words are not trustworthy. "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself. But the one who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth. There is nothing false about him."that's why we literally have to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God so we know who's speaking the truth and who's speaking falsely.

So read 1 John 4:5 to see that we recognize the spirit of truth and falsehood by whether we listen to God or worldly beliefs. The secular world is ruled by Satan who's the father of lies. So why then would you trust Satan's servants? :gah

Let me step back here -- we have previously prayed for Grace between us. I'm not saying that what you declare has no value. The word of truth is in your mouth. From this very thing I can know that your heart is affected by God and that He has written His word upon the fleshly tablets of your heart.

I absolutely agree with you as you say that these things and the things that are of God and that are shown to each of us as we study His word are vitally important. There is no comparison between man's teachings and the Word. Yes! Your declaration that the words that come from the "mouth of God" are more important than life here are true indeed. What does man live on? Bread? Water? Better than bread is the "bread of heaven" - Jesus is the Mana (bread) of life! Water? Do we need to drink? Try going for a week (without miraculous support like Moses and Jesus had) and see if we need water.

Then turn to the Bible and understand how essential the "living waters" are. These things are more vital than anything. What about our breath itself? Is the Spirit (Pneuma) more vital than the need our lungs have? Yes! We need the Holy Spirit more than life and breath itself.

The only thing that I'm objecting to here is an arbitrary line that seems to be drawn in the sand. Who's to say to the Sunday School teacher who wants to continue her education and earn a living that her ambition as she rightly follows the leading of the Holy Spirit for her life and situation is folly? You?

How dare you?

But when my beliefs disagree with scripture, then I'm speaking on my own and my words are not trustworthy.

 

[Heidi]

First of all I know of no Sunday school teacher who has to earn a secular degree in order to teach Sunday school. All she heeds is to know the bible.

But as i said before; it's sometimes unfortunately necessary in this day and age to earn an earthly degree in order to become employed. But we are not to see our secular teachers as infallible gods. only when we know the word of God thoroughly can we know when our teachers are lying and when they are not.

for example, if one wants to learn carpentry skills, he goes to a person who knows carpentry. However, even the codes change with the seasons (I know, because my husband's a carpenter) and what works at one time doesn't work at another. So no matter how much "knowledge" a person has about a certain subject, he could still be wrong because all humans are fallible.

And that's what God means when he tells us to trust in Him alone because God is never wrong.

 

[lovely]

My oldest son (12) has decided that he would like to be an electrician. We home educate, and I would prefer that he was in more of an apprenticeship type of situation as he learns about this field, but it's hard to find men who are willing to take him into their care. The local junior college as an appreticeship program, and so we are praying about that when he is sixteen, but I believe they will also give him credit toward a certification for 'real world' experience. I am still asking God to help us network. He will need to be liscensed, though, and so I imagine some type of formal training and certification will be required.

My second son (10) wants to be a vet, and work with the farmers. He has learned alot on his own, or working for a vet, but at some point he will need formal training too, and so a college may be what he has to do. There is a Christian school in the Ozarks that runs a farm, and I really love that idea, but I am not sure if they are able to teach things like medicine.

As a home educator I am not pushing conventional college, certainly not a secular college, but there is training required for things like electrician, carpenter, vet, doctor, dentist, etc., and so one of our children just may need to attend one. I trust that God will lead us, as their parents, and help us to know what pleases Him and what path to encourage in their lives. I can already see that both of my sons have a bent toward their chosen fields. Both boys talk of missionary work too, and so I realize that there are many applications. I do not think that legalistically 'outlawing' college is the best, but I am also not into the conventional type of higher education that the world holds so high. I know that God will lead, and that we will help our children fulfill their calling for Him. I do agree that the Bible tells us to work with our hands, and to not be ambitious, but I think that there are many jobs that God may be calling us into so that we can labor for Him and bring Him glory...some may involve getting a degree.

Anyway, a good topic.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Heidi]

Yup. One has to learn the skills of a trade. But his faith shouldn't be in the people who teach him the trade. In fact, many people find that after they leave college that their teachers weren't right. So all college is is doing what the teacher wants in order to get a piece of paper stating that the student completed the appropriate courses to be considered qualified for a job. That's all.

But unfortunately, since the secular world doesn't have faith in God, then the only people they can trust are people with degrees and that is why the lies of Satan dominate the secular world. I have also unfortunately, found many people who call themselves Christians also believing secular cientists over the bible. And that's why it's so important to know that we Christians only have one true teacher on whom we can count; Jesus Christ.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

As i demonstrated in my threads on foundation; biology absolutely disagree with scripture because evolution teaches that something superior can come from something superior; the clay forms the potter and that animals can breed human descendants which disagrees with reality and with scripture that each animal breeding its own kind. It also disagrees with Genesis 2:7.

Archeology absolutely disagrees with scripture because all archeologists do is make up stories about the skulls and bones they find. They thus find bones they can't identify, then piece together [b whole new creatures never before mentioned in history and claim that Adam was not the first man. [/b]

Chemists are often wrong because they have made incorrect deductions about the interaction between the particles that God created. That's why there are so many drug recalls.

And mathmeticians are often wrong which is so many of them spend so much times trying to understand God's creation.

So again, when you worship people with degrees as infallible gods, you will be led not only down a path of lies, but straight on the road to destruction.

So again, you need to read and believe 1 John 4:5 to see that worldly beliefs come from the spirit of falsehood. If you don't believe that verse, then nothing I can say will change your mind.

Let's stay away from controversial elements for a second and deal with some hard facts that have been determined as a result of "higher" education...

- The speed of light
- The speed of sound
- Meteorology
- The Periodic Chart of Elements
- Geometry
- Calculus
- Physics

Has it ever occurred to you that if God created the universe that he did so in a way that it could be explained. Rules or laws of how physical objects interact and what they are made of. If this is the case, how would it be wrong to want to understand what rules / laws God put in the place to govern the physical laws of the universe?

I think you need to take step back and realize that this issue is not as clear as you make it out to be. I will give you one example from my standpoint. I recently read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins who is an atheist. I read this to educate myself on what some think is true, not to be swayed. I did so in an effort to educate myself on their stances so if / when I have contact with them and these issues come up I can talk about them in an educated fashion. Atheists usually do not respond well with "because the bible says so" arguments so in order to have a conversation with one in an attempt to influence their beliefs you have to talk on their level.

Now, is this a waste of my time or against God if I want to use this information to further God's Kingdom? I think not. The same can be said for studying other religions to better understand these cultures when you come in contact with them. My church has many civil engineers that went to college for a "higher" education. They now have drilled 50 water wells in Nigeria and are spreading God's word as a result of their education. Was this education a waste of their time?

 

[Sparkey]

First of all I know of no Sunday school teacher who has to earn a secular degree in order to teach Sunday school. All she heeds is to know the bible.

• [list:2nfk1wgv]You don't see that as an arrogant statement? I'm telling you that I do know her in particular and if you would like to say, "first of all, I know of no... blah, blah, blah" and make yourself the judge of my friend saying that she doesn't exist because YOU have not met her??? What???
  
  <This is an entirely different subject but what world do you live in? Do you know of any Sunday School teacher who gets paid or are they all expected to do their "service" to the church on a voluntary basis. If this world respected the word of God as it should the disparity between secular wages and the wages withheld from my friend would be inverted. In other words the one who taught the Bible would be paid more now and would be able to earn a living instead of having to supplement her income while she is pouring her heart out in service to God and being forced to .... Argh!!! Now I'm doing it. I'll get off my soapbox but I really would like you to pray for her situation that the injustice of it be addressed at least partially here and now --I do know her reward is great but also consider it wrong for her to not be able to earn enough to feed herself (and I think she should have enough to give generously to others too, as the Lord leads her).>

[/list:u:2nfk1wgv]

But as i said before; it's sometimes unfortunately necessary in this day and age to earn an earthly degree in order to become employed. But we are not to see our secular teachers as infallible gods. only when we know the word of God thoroughly can we know when our teachers are lying and when they are not.

• [list:2nfk1wgv]The one thing I've heard you say about education that was well thought out. Thank you for that concession. Yes, I agree. It is necessary (sometimes). Your rhetoric about idol worship applies to anything we set up as gods. Not just as you seem to suggest, "secular teachers".

[/list:u:2nfk1wgv]

for example, if one wants to learn carpentry skills, he goes to a person who knows carpentry. However, even the codes change with the seasons (I know, because my husband's a carpenter) and what works at one time doesn't work at another. So no matter how much "knowledge" a person has about a certain subject, he could still be wrong because all humans are fallible.

• [list:2nfk1wgv]You're quite the artful dodger though. I've explained what "Equivocation" is and was ignored. I'm not the only person in thread who has asked your education level. My assumption is that it is higher than my 8th Grade education level but you have not said. Now you mention your husband's training. Are you sure that your actions and declarations are in balance with each other? No need to reply, the question is rhetorical on my part.

[/list:u:2nfk1wgv]

And that's what God means when he tells us to trust in Him alone because God is never wrong.

• [list:2nfk1wgv]When you say that God is trustworthy there are none who can argue. Certainly not me.

[/list:u:2nfk1wgv]

~Sparrowhawke

<Kindly do pray for the one I love - she's a Sunday School teacher and also a student.>

 

[Sparkey]

Heidi - as we type to each other I'm starting to "see" you better and getting to like you too. It's my hope that you are also being shown more of my heart and my allegation that this is being accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

Part of my sin is that I get entrenched when I encounter opposition to any idea that I hold true. We are both commanded to "prove the truth" and also commanded to "hold it fast". The problem that I currently face isn't something that I learned in secular school - but really it is a problem. My need is to be able to see flesh and blood people and to know that their feelings matter to God and that I need to tone my arguments down a couple notches and not be so pointed.

Really? I need peace and further need to grow in grace and peace.
May I invite you to read my prayer request about this? It was made fairly recently. I really do need to step back and learn the ability to do this readily especially when dealing with my siblings - the members of the body of Christ. And further I'd just like to apologize for my tone here and my arrogance - it takes practice to become more Christlike and I need the opportunity.

Here's the link to my prayer requesting guidance toward peace: The Peace that Passeth Understanding It's from a couple months ago and there is progress to report but as yet I've not attained what is promised.


Thank you,
~Sparrow

 

[Heidi]

Really? I need peace and further need to grow in grace and peace.
May I invite you to read my prayer request about this? It was made fairly recently. I really do need to step back and learn the ability to do this readily especially when dealing with my siblings - the members of the body of Christ. And further I'd just like to apologize for my tone here and my arrogance - it takes practice to become more Christlike and I need the opportunity.

What a heartfelt and humble post. I think the problem we Christians all have is that we are constantly surrounded by the lies of Satan. He's just waiting to devour us. So there are times we need to be firm and others when we need to be gentle. It's not always easy to distinguish those times. So you also need to distinguish between being arrogant and being bold. Whenever we quote scripture, it doesn't come from us but from God. So we can be confident that it's true. So our confidence is not in the flesh, but in God's word. Arrogance, on the other hand is confidence in the flesh. So I have never seen you as arrogant.

I've been told by many that my gift is prophecy. But I don't want it because it's costly. Nevertheless, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable, so there's nothing I can do about it. Prophets tend to come off strong. We have to in order to endure the persecution we'll have to endure to speak the word of God. No one would choose to be hated unless the word of God is so strong in his heart that he can't hold it in. That's what Jeremiah felt and I can completely identify.

I hate the lies of Satan. So I probably could never get through college since I wouldn't be able to stand some of the lies they teach. In fact I know I would stand up and say; "that's a lie!" whenever I heard something that contradicted scripture because my heart is literally on fire for the truth. So I'm sure my professors would probably flunk me.

But my calling isn't worldly so I don't pursue worldly knowledge, only Godly knowledge. So I stay away from the universities. One can't trust worldly knowledge because it comes from the fallible human mind. But we can always trust godly knowledge because it comes from the mind of God. That's the point I'm trying to make. Thanks for sharing.

 

[jasoncran]

i disagree with your statement on archeaology, that field is part of the larger field of anthroplogy, the study of man and his enviroment, that includes paleontogy(which you reffered) , lingualistics, the study of languages, and many many more.

Science is a tool, if the person using it is evil that science can be evil and if the person is good than the science good, a tool all it is.

Modern science is under the naturalistic point of view, that where many christian scientist disagree.

Your lack of knowledge on science is showing, i'm certain no scientist but if i'm going to call it evil at least make the effort to learn what the fields of it are, and then also be kind enough to remember that the person who is in the field of science may be in need of a savior.

BTW Iranians,Afhganis arent arabic speaking people, while they are genetically related to the arabs, Farsi,Dari,Pashto are Persian languages, and English is related to them more than arabic.
Islam in the mosques uses arabic words in the worship of allah. That is what anthropology is good for to learn about a culture and religion then determine through that and history how to respond to these people. again science can be a tool to uplift the kingdom if it used for his glory.

jason

 

[Heidi]

i disagree with your statement on archeaology, that field is part of the larger field of anthroplogy, the study of man and his enviroment, that includes paleontogy(which you reffered) , lingualistics, the study of languages, and many many more.

So do you think that archeologists are infallible gods who are never wrong? :gah if so, I'll clue you in: the skulls and bones they found and pieced together and gave them names is called artwork, not science. There's no way to know if all those bones came from the same body; absolutely none.

So once again, believing that archeologists are infallible gods only leads to never challenging anything they say and blindly believing anything they say. That's how myths like the lie of evolution get to be so popular. ;)