The Process Of Justification

[smaller]

You know, the funny part is that this "individual" went insane, which says a lot about his opinion of "groups, parties, nations and epochs". He is looking upon these normal, natural human things with a diseased mind.

Funny "peculiar", not funny "ha-ha". His life was sad, really.

I think the guy was rather brilliant in that particular observation myself.

Another very Godly person made a similar observation, here:

Jeremiah 51:7
Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

 

[dadof10]

I think the guy was rather brilliant in that particular observation myself.

Another very Godly person made a similar observation, here:

Jeremiah 51:7
Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Got it. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no matter who he was, how sane he was, how ironic it is that he complained about "groups " being insane yet he became insane himself (Edited, ToS 2.2, attempting to sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature. Obadiah) he's OK with you, huh?

 

[turnorburn]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)

 

[ezra]

Yeah...OK. You know there are apostates who are living, right? There are people walking around breathing who were once devout Christians and now hate Christ.

apostate is a fake having a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. so to hate Christ would imo make them a fake never saved
1 John 2:19

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” no no doubt there are those who no longer worship in truth and spirit. what is the fate of them ..i can not answer that truthfully .simply because i am not the judge . should they be warned to return ? yes they should other wise their blood will be upon our hands . but what does this have to do with justification ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't the words "last only as short time" and "quickly fall away" refer to accepting "the word" and imply (that word again ) that the person stops believing?

That's what Jesus said. They believe, but only for a while:
"they believe for a while" (Luke 8:13 NASB)

And if he stops believing, he stops being justified, right?

If Jesus means stops believing in regard to the faith that justifies, yes, he loses his justification that he got by that believing. There is faith that does not make a person righteous (i.e. trusting God for this week's food), and there is the faith that does make a person righteous (trusting in the blood of Christ). If Jesus is talking about being made righteous by faith in God's forgiveness then, yes, that person loses any justification they had from that believing. Paul talks about that here in the overall context of the gospel and salvation:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

Salvation is conditional on holding fast, in faith, the gospel we have heard. You can't be saved by a gospel you no longer believe in. That is apostasy. That is not the same as a lack of faith in regard to, say, God healing our bodies. That would hardly be regarded as apostasy and the matter of justification. So, even though the parable of the sower is primarily about fruitfulness, not necessarily salvation, I think the 'believing' Jesus is referring to in the first two types of soil is the believing toward justification--being born again, washed anew.

 

[AirDancer]

ToS 2.2 reads in part:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.

This thread - and forum - will NOT include Catholic discussion.

 

[smaller]

Got it. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no matter who he was, how sane he was, how ironic it is that he complained about "groups " being insane yet he became insane himself (Edited, ToS 2.2, attempting to sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature. Obadiah) he's OK with you, huh?

I understand that certain sects teach that "man" is an enemy of the Gospel. I don't believe that. Mankind in unbeliever form is blinded to the Gospel by a party that is not them. Satan or his own. And we ourselves are not "immune" to his deceptions either. That is why we "can't" work ourselves into salvation and that justification is a One Way Street, delivered by faith. We don't have "faith" in ourselves, but in God in Christ. And on that ground, a believer is justified, once and forever. Regardless of what comes our way afterwards.

He is Able.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

 

[JLB]

So, even though the parable of the sower is primarily about fruitfulness, not necessarily salvation, I think the 'believing' Jesus is referring to in the first two types of soil is the believing toward justification--being born again, washed anew.

Yes, most definitely the parable concerns salvation... as He explains from the beginning... lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

It would be unwise to think that the parable's meaning would change half way through, so that the last two verse's mean "something else".

I can think of two other places where Jesus teaches us that a lack of fruitfulness, [reproducing His life; ie;love] equals being cast into the fire and burned.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit...If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6


and again


34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me...41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36,41-43

In verse 42 Jesus gives the reason why, as He says "For", which is another way of saying "Because"... you gave Me no food.


If we remain connected to Him in relationship, "Abide", then we remain connected to Love, Grace, forgiveness as well as Eternal Life, as a branch remains connected to the Vine and naturally reproduces what the Vine is.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

That's what Jesus said. They believe, but only for a while:
"they believe for a while" (Luke 8:13 NASB)


If Jesus means stops believing in regard to the faith that justifies, yes, he loses his justification that he got by that believing. There is faith that does not make a person righteous (i.e. trusting God for this week's food), and there is the faith that does make a person righteous (trusting in the blood of Christ).

Do you think it's possible for a person to regress from "the faith that justifies...that he got by that believing" to "faith that does not make a person righteous (i.e. trusting God for this week's food)"?

If Jesus is talking about being made righteous by faith in God's forgiveness then, yes, that person loses any justification they had from that believing. Paul talks about that here in the overall context of the gospel and salvation:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

Salvation is conditional on holding fast, in faith, the gospel we have heard. You can't be saved by a gospel you no longer believe in. That is apostasy. That is not the same as a lack of faith in regard to, say, God healing our bodies. That would hardly be regarded as apostasy and the matter of justification. So, even though the parable of the sower is primarily about fruitfulness, not necessarily salvation, I think the 'believing' Jesus is referring to in the first two types of soil is the believing toward justification--being born again, washed anew.

You seem to be agreeing with me here, that if a person goes from an "obedient, trusting faith" to a faith that isn't, that person will cease to be justified, and that it's not outright apostasy. So the only two options that I can see are;

That a person can lose their justification for all time, cast into the fires of Hell, for "last{ing} only a short time" and "quickly fall{ing} away".

Or that a person can be justified again after regressing into a faith that doesn't justify, but that doesn't apostatize either.

You have repeatedly said you don't believe in the latter, so it must be the former? Do you see those verses in Hebrews as relating to a person who does not apostatize, but does not remain in an obedient, trusting relationship with Christ? A person who sort of fades away from the truth due to pressures or distractions from "the world"?

 

[dadof10]

I understand that certain sects teach that "man" is an enemy of the Gospel. I don't believe that. Mankind in unbeliever form is blinded to the Gospel by a party that is not them. Satan or his own. And we ourselves are not "immune" to his deceptions either. That is why we "can't" work ourselves into salvation and that justification is a One Way Street, delivered by faith. We don't have "faith" in ourselves, but in God in Christ. And on that ground, a believer is justified, once and forever. Regardless of what comes our way afterwards.

He is Able.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

And...we're back to demonic possession and lack of responsibility for our own actions.

Any exegesis on Heb. 11? Gen. 12? Any?....Bueller...Bueller...

 

[dadof10]

Jethro Bodine, in short, do you think your exegesis below refers to those who are described in Matt. 13? Do you think those who "last only a short time" and "quickly fall away" have "willfully trampled on the blood"?

Jethro wrote: "No faith in the blood means no more on going one-time offering of blood applied to your account (Hebrews 7:25 NIV). No more blood means no more justification. And Hebrews explains how the person who has willfully trampled on the blood has nothing to look forward to except damnation with the enemies of God, with no possibility for repentance:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV)

 

[smaller]

And...we're back to demonic possession and lack of responsibility for our own actions.

Any exegesis on Heb. 11? Gen. 12? Any?....Bueller...Bueller...

No one is responsible enough to "work" themselves into eternal salvation. It is A GIFT that is given to us, by faith.

Any response to the now quite numerous scriptural facts?

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

"always having all sufficiency in all things"

Does that mean anything to you at all?

Philippians 4:19
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

 

[smaller]

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee -

 

[smaller]

It's only unfortunate that some fall into the clutches of people who claim to own and control Grace and then force everyone to bow before these men to "get it."

What a scam!

 

[turnorburn]

It's only unfortunate that some fall into the clutches of people who claim to own and control Grace and then force everyone to bow before these men to "get it."

What a scam!

That's what the reformation was all about smaller..

tob

 

[smaller]

That's what the reformation was all about smaller..

tob

I totally understand that.

 

[dadof10]

No one is responsible enough to "work" themselves into eternal salvation. It is A GIFT that is given to us, by faith.

Any response to the now quite numerous scriptural facts?

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (Hebrews 10:26 NIV)

Who is the "we" in this sentence? Obviously an actual person (as opposed to a demon inside a person), who is saved and has the capacity to "keep on sinning", which will effect his justification. Will you argue the untenable view that the author of Hebrews is not included in the "we" above? Will you go onto the BLB website and look into the Greek, compare versions and attempt to refute my point with scholarly Biblical exegesis of the verse? Will you actually answer the question above? I doubt it.

What you will probably do is blather on about "sects" and "works" and demonic possession, none of which has anything to do with the verse, then post other verses and say "see?" That's the kind of iesegesis I've come to expect from you.

 

[smaller]

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (Hebrews 10:26 NIV)

Not one believer became a "non-sinner" after salvation. See Paul's own statement about himself, in 1 Tim. 1:15.

Who is the "we" in this sentence? Obviously an actual person (as opposed to a demon inside a person), who is saved and has the capacity to "keep on sinning",

When did you or anyone else become sinless?

which will effect his justification. Will you argue the untenable view that the author of Hebrews is not included in the "we" above?

It's all in "how" you view the construct. You insist that sin is only of the person. That was never the case. Sin is in fact "of the devil." And the devil never ceases sinning and tempting, which is also A SIN.

Matters of sin are not to be understood as a done in a vacuum called "just a person" as no "just a person" exists.

Again, Paul points to having "evil present" with him. Romans 7:21, said he did things he didn't want to do in Romans 7:18, says he did EVIL in Romans 7:19, said he had "sin indwelling" him which he termed "NO LONGER I" in Romans 7, twice no less. He had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which most can't appear to read as that in 2 Cor. 12:7, and temptation in his own flesh Gal. 4:14, which flesh he termed "vile body" in Phil. 3:21, not just for him, but for ALL believers.

That does NOT sound like the voice of a liar to me. I think Paul was refreshingly honest and open about these matters, personally. (Edited, ToS 2.4, trolling. Obadiah)

If any of these facts leads you to believe that the flesh is justified, it's not, never was and never will be. Why this is so might appear rather obvious, after reading the facts that Paul left to be seen and read.

John the Apostle says if we say we have (not had, not will have, HAVE) no sin we're not IN TRUTH. In 1 John 1:8. He also says sin is of the devil, assuredly bringing that PARTY to the table of every sin.

We are forgiven. Satan isn't. It's that simple. Cut and dried.

Will you go onto the BLB website and look into the Greek, compare versions and attempt to refute my point with scholarly Biblical exegesis of the verse? Will you actually answer the question above? I doubt it.

There is no point to be had in trying to "un-justify" Abraham.

You've done nothing more than to ignore every statement of scripture (Edited, ToS 2.4, trolling. Obadiah) in a futile attempt to slam Abraham. In fact I doubt your sect has authorized your sight either. (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insults. Obadiah)

What you will probably do is blather on about "sects" and "works" and demonic possession, none of which has anything to do with the verse, then post other verses and say "see?" That's the kind of iesegesis I've come to expect from you.

I don't buy the bill of goods sold by some sects simply because their "claims" are not true or truthful.

There is exactly ZERO basis to smear Abraham, as you have so insistently tried, and utterly FAILED to do.

The notion that Abraham "LOST" his faith, at any time, is found nowhere in the scriptures. Yet you think you discovered this? (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insults. Obadiah)

 

[dadof10]

Not one believer became a "non-sinner" after salvation. See Paul's own statement about himself, in 1 Tim. 1:15.


When did you or anyone else become sinless?



It's all in "how" you view the construct. You insist that sin is only of the person. That was never the case. Sin is in fact "of the devil." And the devil never ceases sinning and tempting, which is also A SIN.

Matters of sin are not to be understood as a done in a vacuum called "just a person" as no "just a person" exists.

Again, Paul points to having "evil present" with him. Romans 7:21, said he did things he didn't want to do in Romans 7:18, says he did EVIL in Romans 7:19, said he had "sin indwelling" him which he termed "NO LONGER I" in Romans 7, twice no less. He had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which most can't appear to read as that in 2 Cor. 12:7, and temptation in his own flesh Gal. 4:14, which flesh he termed "vile body" in Phil. 3:21, not just for him, but for ALL believers.

That does NOT sound like the voice of a liar to me. I think Paul was refreshingly honest and open about these matters, personally. Not like most religious twits dressed in fancy robes and gold hats pretending that they own Jesus, all His Words and all HIS STUFF.

If any of these facts leads you to believe that the flesh is justified, it's not, never was and never will be. Why this is so might appear rather obvious, after reading the facts that Paul left to be seen and read.

John the Apostle says if we say we have (not had, not will have, HAVE) no sin we're not IN TRUTH. In 1 John 1:8. He also says sin is of the devil, assuredly bringing that PARTY to the table of every sin.

We are forgiven. Satan isn't. It's that simple. Cut and dried.



There is no point to be had in trying to "un-justify" Abraham.

You've done nothing more than to ignore every statement of scripture to the contrary of your sects false impositions and sights in a futile attempt to slam Abraham. In fact I doubt your sect has authorized your sight either. Your just out here, freelancing Abraham into faithlessness, emphasis on LANCING. Somebody should report you to your own supposed authorities.


I don't buy the bill of goods sold by some sects simply because their "claims" are not true or truthful.

There is exactly ZERO basis to smear Abraham, as you have so insistently tried, and utterly FAILED to do.

The notion that Abraham "LOST" his faith, at any time, is found nowhere in the scriptures. Yet you think you discovered this? lol

Your sect never even got out the gate of scriptural reality on this one count:

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And, instead, continues to "count sins" against everyone, including their own members, continually, so they can continue to sell them temporary absolution to what was settled at the Cross.

And equally unfortunately, their members think that if they don't get their "temporary absolution fix," they may be eternally cooked.

It's just another twist in a world of false religious twists.

You and a number of others here are peddling doubts and casting dispersion on the basis of 'works.' That much is certain.

Thanks for proving me right. OK, I'm done here...

 

[Obadiah]

I think we're ALL done here for a little while. We will now take a short break until I am at work tonight where I will have a chance to review this thread once again.