The Process Of Justification

[smaller]

In Gods FIRST WORDS to Abraham, we read thusly:

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Anyone giving advice to curse Abraham as an unbeliever, which is someone without faith, or LOST faith, might be directed to the words in RED.

 

[smaller]

sounds like crickets from JLB at this point.

 

[turnorburn]

sounds like crickets from JLB at this point.

Sounds like the teaching on justification at the council of Trent.. a counter reformation teaching

tob

 

[JLB]

In Gods FIRST WORDS to Abraham, we read thusly:

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Anyone giving advice to curse Abraham as an unbeliever, which is someone without faith, or LOST faith, might be directed to the words in RED.

That would be the epitome of a logical fallacy.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

That is what the scriptures show.

I will be glad to discuss these scriptures with you, when you have gotten control of yourself... or whatever.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

YOUR QUOTE:

"he lost his obedience or his faith."

What come before these words, Smaller? Something like "If he needed to be justified more than once, and you believe that Abraham is justified by obedience or faith alone, then he must have lost his obedience or his faith, otherwise he wouldn't need to be rejustified".

I never made the positive statement that "he lost his faith" because I don't know, he could have become disobedient or stopped trusing, which could make him lose his justification, since I don't believe that faith alone justifies. This was in the context of your insistence that we discuss WHAT justifies instead of the topic of this thread, which is that justification (however you personally think it happens) is a process.

Like I said, you are only giving half a quote in an effort to discredit me. Typical...

 

[dadof10]

In Gods FIRST WORDS to Abraham, we read thusly:

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Anyone giving advice to curse Abraham as an unbeliever, which is someone without faith, or LOST faith, might be directed to the words in RED.

Are you trying to say that by studying the life of Abraham in the context of Gen.12 and Hebrews 11, and coming to the honest, Biblical conclusion that Abraham was justified more than once, I am "cursing" him? Really? This can't be your point...

 

[dadof10]

That would be the epitome of a logical fallacy.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

That is what the scriptures show.

I will be glad to discuss these scriptures with you, when you have gotten control of yourself... or whatever.


JLB

Not to mention disjointed and inconclusive.

 

[smaller]

That would be the epitome of a logical fallacy.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

That is what the scriptures show.

I will be glad to discuss these scriptures with you, when you have gotten control of yourself... or whatever.

JLB

I gave scriptural citings as facts. Do thou likewise and spare me the wisecracks

 

[smaller]

Sounds like the teaching on justification at the council of Trent.. a counter reformation teaching

tob

Yeah. I think most of us saw through that thin cloth from post 1.

 

[dadof10]

Yeah. I think most of us saw through that thin cloth from post 1.

LOL...Right, that's why there are so many responses to my actual exegesis. Again, the only one who took a shot was Jethro. If it was so easily debunked, you would think there would be more people doing it. The count stands at one...

 

[JLB]

I gave scriptural citings as facts. Do thou likewise and spare me the wisecracks

If you have regained control of yourself, then please prove from the scriptures that Abraham was not justified in Genesis 12, and again in
Genesis 15, and again in Genesis 22.


This is the only point that I have made, specifically Genesis 12 being the first time Abraham was justified.



JLB

 

[reba]

2.4 It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic. admin

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A believer fades away from the faith (as opposed to apostatizes) and becomes a "former believer", he can still "come back to his senses" and be justified again.

The point you're not getting is the person toying with unbelief does not lose his justification until God eventually turns him over to his decision to entertain unbelief. During that time he still has the blood of Christ covering him, justifying him. See, in Hebrews it says it is the person who 'goes on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26) that eventually loses his justification and becomes subject to the wrath of God again. The Hebrews themselves seem to have entered this probationary period of unbelief to some degree or another and it is the author who is telling them not to keep on sinning this way or else have only the future expectation of the damnation of the enemies of God. God's offer of repentance is still on the table. But if they resist, he will withdraw it, with no opportunity to have it back (Hebrews 6:4-6).

So this is not a matter of the person trampling the blood of Christ, losing their justification, and then getting it back. It's a matter of them being in danger of losing it if they do not come back to faith in whatever space of time God has allotted for them to do that. I can't tell you how long that is. Obviously, it probably varies from person to person, situation to situation. Do any of us know how long the Hebrews had to stop toying with unbelief? No. We just know they had the opportunity to do so. And what would happen if they did not seize that opportunity and instead chose to continue sinning.

 

[MarkT]

Yeah...OK. You know there are apostates who are living, right? There are people walking around breathing who were once devout Christians and now hate Christ.

Yeah They neither hear or know the Son of God. So they are dead.

Unless you are talking about the flesh. But then the flesh is not justified. God doesn't justify dust.

 

[MarkT]

This means that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15, therefore justification (being made/declared righteous) is a process, not a one time event.

How many times a day do you believe in God? Do you count the times as events?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think it's possible for a person to regress from "the faith that justifies...that he got by that believing" to "faith that does not make a person righteous (i.e. trusting God for this week's food)"?

Yeah. I think it's probably a rather common experience in the church. It seems from what people have related is that what happens is the seeds of doubt appear in them even as they go about their 'Christian' activities and their seeking God for this or that. Finally, the seeds take root and the unbelief becomes apparent. But to say that they lost God's justification right from the very first appearances of unbelief is not consistent with the Hebrew's experience in the Bible. The author speaks to them of the justification that is already a fact in them because of the ministry of Christ (Hebrews 7-9), and then warns them of what will eventually happen if they 'keep on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26-29), not that it's already happened and that they need to get re-justified.

 

[dadof10]

The point you're not getting is the person toying with unbelief

You called this hypothetical person a "former believer" in your last post. I even asked if you meant "former believer".

"Did you mean to say "former believer"? If you did, we agree. A believer fades away from the faith (as opposed to apostatizes) and becomes a "former believer", he can still "come back to his senses" and be justified again."

Instead of answering this clarifying question, you blast me for "not getting" it. In what world is a "former believer" still toying with unbelief? Either he still believes, and is toying with unbelief or he is a "former believer" having stopped believing and become an unbeliever. It can't be both, unless of course he is a "commendable believer", some unscriptural hybrid in between...lol

does not lose his justification until God eventually turns him over to his decision to entertain unbelief. During that time he still has the blood of Christ covering him, justifying him.

Then he wouldn't be a "former believer", would he? Because once he stopped believing, he stops being justified. Isn't this what you said, or maybe I'm just "not getting it".

See, in Hebrews it says it is the person who 'goes on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26) that eventually loses his justification and becomes subject to the wrath of God again.

So, behavior effects justification, huh? I guess it's not all about faith, is it? It's also about refraining from sin. Now, I'm gonna ask for clarification again. Did you mean that sin effects justification? If so, we agree.

The Hebrews themselves seem to have entered this probationary period of unbelief to some degree or another and it is the author who is telling them not to keep on sinning this way or else have only the future expectation of the damnation of the enemies of God. God's offer of repentance is still on the table. But if they resist, he will withdraw it, with no opportunity to have it back (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Do you mean actual "unbelief" or "toying with unbelief"? And where do you get the idea of some hybrid "probationary period of unbelief"? Until you clear this up, I really don't "see".

 

[dadof10]

Yeah They neither hear or know the Son of God. So they are dead.

Unless you are talking about the flesh. But then the flesh is not justified. God doesn't justify dust.

I asked if a person stopped breathing if he stops believing. You replied "yes". Why are you playing word games?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A believer fades away from the faith (as opposed to apostatizes) and becomes a "former believer", he can still "come back to his senses" and be justified again."

What you're not getting is I'm saying he has not lost his justification at this point that he somehow needs to be re-justified. That is not the message that the author delivers to the Hebrew church. Instead, it is a message of 'this is the reality even now, but you'll lose it if you keep traveling in this vein of unbelief you are in'. No message of needing to be re-justified. Just a message of what will eventually happen to them--and the warning that there is no way back once that happens (Hebrews 6:4-6).

 

[dadof10]

How many times a day do you believe in God? Do you count the times as events?

If I continue in obedient, trusting faith, I am being justified. If I stop having an obedient, trusting faith, I stop being justified. If you want to keep playing silly word games instead of discuss this topic, please do it with someone else, thanks.