The Process Of Justification

[Jethro Bodine]

In what world is a "former believer" still toying with unbelief?
Either he still believes, and is toying with unbelief or he is a "former believer" having stopped believing and become an unbeliever.

The mistake you are making is passing judgment of when and where the former believer loses the effect of Christ's ministry. You're trying to tie that directly to every minute instance of unbelief. Hebrews show us God does not do that. Paul's letter to the Galatians is another example of God's probationary period of grace extended to the believer who has lost his confidence in Christ.

It can't be both, unless of course he is a "commendable believer", some unscriptural hybrid in between...lol

The commendable faith of the unjustified is in regard to their faith prior to actually being justified. As I say, I know this is probably a hard thing for you to grasp because if I'm not mistaken your denomination does not teach the born again experience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then he wouldn't be a "former believer", would he? Because once he stopped believing, he stops being justified. Isn't this what you said, or maybe I'm just "not getting it".

Right, you are not getting it.
I'm showing you that God is patient in turning the former believer over to the consequence of their unbelief--lose of justification. Your argument is that they lost it the second they did not believe anymore. The letters to the churches in the Bible do not support your doctrine. They support mine as I am showing you.

So, behavior effects justification, huh?

No.
Behavior only signifies the belief that effects justification all by itself. As John point out in 1 John 3:7-10, your righteousness shows you are righteous (justified). Your unrighteousness shows you are not righteous (not justified).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

where do you get the idea of some hybrid "probationary period of unbelief"? Until you clear this up, I really don't "see".

I explained already that the Hebrew church, despite their loss of confidence (faith) in Christ, are not being exhorted to be re-justified, but rather are being reminded about what they already have in Christ, but which they will lose if they 'keep on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26).

 

[smaller]

LOL...Right, that's why there are so many responses to my actual exegesis. Again, the only one who took a shot was Jethro. If it was so easily debunked, you would think there would be more people doing it. The count stands at one...

Self declared victory doesn't mean a thing.

There is, as a fact, zero scriptural evidence that Abraham was not justified and/or without faith and/or lost his faith.

Why anyone even postures such is merely another reflection of the ill intentions of the people who think they see such things. It's a common phenom. Heb. 4:12 says that is what happens.

What people "think" they see is a reflection of their heart, not necessarily what is being conveyed by the scriptures.

What is the reflection of people who think Abraham was, at some point, potentially damned?

That is maybe something such readers should reflect on for their own benefits.

 

[smaller]

How many times a day do you believe in God? Do you count the times as events?

There are several difficulties with works for salvation proponents.

They never can really say what works, how frequent, when they actually fail, when they fail are they then potentially damned at the moment, etc etc.

It's a dead end.

The primary difficulty is that they always try to remove God in Christ from their equations. And, equally, they never claim themselves to have been in a "rotating potentially damned" position. Few if any such proponents consider that they are/were/were not/aren't potentially damned.

Where they usually end up is in a position where they really just don't know and won't know until their end.

In this way salvation is merely speculation.

With Abraham, we can see that God "took him" and "led him." There is no reasonable way to remove God from the equations of Abraham. The series is not about Abraham alone. It's about God engaging and leading Abraham by God's Will, not Abraham's.

When God said "I will" that pretty much settles the issue. In Christ we have an entire series of "I Will's" that are of Christ, through faith, and not left up to the ambiguity of the clouded will of the man.

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The consideration of faith in Christ should be the same for any believer. We believe that the deposit of Christ has been made by faith internally, and that the deposit will be redeemed on the basis of Christ's Power, not our own.

Any reflections from there are NOT going to be A Perfect Reflection of Christ in us. We all still have issues. Those issues are examined at length in the N.T. But never as a basis of condemnation, making man's will the operating principle or power.

None of us are our own Savior.

 

[smaller]

If I continue in obedient, trusting faith, I am being justified. If I stop having an obedient, trusting faith, I stop being justified. If you want to keep playing silly word games instead of discuss this topic, please do it with someone else, thanks.

All of your postures revolve around the big "I" power.

Where is the Power of Christ in your equations? Is there any?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You see Abraham, just working away (or not) entirely on his own.

The instant you bring the Power of God in Christ into the equations, your sight is a big "I" FAIL.

 

[smaller]

If you have regained control of yourself, then please prove from the scriptures that Abraham was not justified in Genesis 12, and again in
Genesis 15, and again in Genesis 22.

This is the only point that I have made, specifically Genesis 12 being the first time Abraham was justified.

JLB

You and dado10 seem to think Abraham was working in a vacuum consisting of just Abraham.

I've been very specific in my observations. The Will of God with(in) Abraham is what is in sight here, NOT the will of Abraham. Abraham did NOT ever justify "himself."

We know that God "took him" and "led him" directly from the scriptures. We know again, from scripture, that God in Christ was "in Abraham" from 1 Peter 1. We also know, from God's first direct Words to Abraham, that it was God's Will that was in operation for the benefit of Abraham, not Abraham's will.

The notion that anyone 'justifies' themselves is a non-starter.

 

[smaller]

I never made the positive statement that "he lost his faith" because I don't know, he could have become disobedient or stopped trusing,

Uh, yeah, you did. Your quote says it.

If you say you don't know, that is accurate because your sight is entirely speculation based only on Abraham and not on God's Power and Direction with(in) Abraham.

We've examined your speculation on several grounds at this point, none of which you've stepped up to the plate on, because it shows your speculation to be invalid. You "think" you see "rejustification" in your initial sights. What that infers in your mind is "lost justification." There is nothing in your sightings indicating any "lost justifications" anywhere. It's entirely speculation, and it's speculation that "removes" the Power of God in Christ from the equations altogether.

which could make him lose his justification, since I don't believe that faith alone justifies.

There is no equation of faith that removes the power of God in Christ. You make Christ invalid on the basis of the "man." Where is your accounting, but only on the "man?" Is Christ only valid on the basis of the "man?" Never. Does the "Individual" make the power of Christ valid? Does the "Individual" control Christ?

This was in the context of your insistence that we discuss WHAT justifies instead of the topic of this thread, which is that justification (however you personally think it happens) is a process.

That's the problem with "works salvation." It makes a "WHO" into a "what."

Like I said, you are only giving half a quote in an effort to discredit me. Typical...

I quoted you directly. And your quote says that Abraham lost his faith or justification. Abraham didn't have his own justification by works to start with. His "justification" was never based on a "what did he do" but on 'WHO' was within him.

 

[MarkT]

I asked if a person stopped breathing if he stops believing. You replied "yes". Why are you playing word games?

I said they are dead. Breathing or not breathing, they are dead.

 

[JLB]

You and dado10 seem to think Abraham was working in a vacuum consisting of just Abraham.

I have never said such nonsense.

You are putting words in my mouth that I have not said.

Why don't you actually address what is being presented here.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

If you do not believe this to be true then please show us from the scriptures where this is not true.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

This is a reference to Genesis 22.

10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."
12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:10-12


Is it your belief that this was the first time Abraham was justified?

Jethro has shared extensively about this subject, and the two different meanings of justification.

Declared righteous and Shown to be righteous.


Justified; Declared to be righteous, is what God does for the ungodly when they repent and believe the Gospel.

Declared to be righteous; would be the first time we are justified by God, by faith in Jesus Christ.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:5


Do you believe Genesis 22 is the first time Abraham was justified?


JLB

 

[smaller]

I have never said such nonsense. You are putting words in my mouth that I have not said.

The question WAS, did Abraham lose his justification and or his faith, thereby needing justification AGAIN.

The question itself is filled with FLAWS.

Why don't you actually address what is being presented here.

I've pointed out several gaffes/flaws in the question itself, and specifically showed God "taking" and "leading" Abraham. It was never a question of "just Abraham as Abraham alone, justifying or re-justifying himself."

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

No such animal as "just Abraham" to start with.

 

[JLB]

I quoted you directly. And your quote says that Abraham lost his faith or justification. Abraham didn't have his own justification by works to start with. His "justification" was never based on a "what did he do" but on 'WHO' was within him.

Abraham's justification was based on His obedience to God.


There is no other way to be justified.

Why would anyone think we can be justified by disobedience, which is the same exact word for unbelief.


Example:

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


and again -


18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:18-19

and again


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


Over and over the bible shows us the principle of faith, by believing/obeying.

Unbelief is Disobedience.


Faith without works [the act of obedience] is dead.

[Not the works of the law, Not good works, not works that earn]

A faith that does not obey is a faith that does not justify.

Faith does not work without obedience.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The question WAS, did Abraham lose his justification and or his faith, thereby needing justification AGAIN.

Show me the post where I asked this question.

 

[smaller]

Abraham's justification was based on His obedience to God.

Only if God is removed from the quotient.

That NEVER happened.

 

[smaller]

smaller edited 2.4 of the TOS by reba last warning

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic.

 

[JLB]

I cited dado10's claim, and asked you if you agreed.

crickets.

Here is dado10's claim, again, regarding Abraham.

"he lost his obedience or his faith."

Agree or not?

dado10 has since modified this to only his speculation, and that he doesn't really know. Apparently he was just guessing.

Only if God is removed from the quotient.

That NEVER happened.

Here is my statement again.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

If you don't agree, then please show me from the scriptures, why you don't agree he was justified in these three different places in the scripture.

The specifics of your conversation with others is so convoluted with you talking in circles and rude remarks, that I will leave that between you guys.


If you have some scriptural evidence that shows Abraham was not justified in these three different places, then please share it with me.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Here is my statement again.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

If you don't agree, then please show me from the scriptures, why you don't agree he was justified in these three different places in the scripture.

Abraham shows us many matters of God in Christ. IN fact, God in Christ was "IN him" to speak, as he was a prophet. See again, the 1 Peter 10 citing about O.T. prophets and the Spirit of Christ who was "in them" to witness.

Abraham witnessed no differently to the Gospel than what Paul witnesses. We are justified by faith, and the FLESH is never justified regardless of WORKS.

Paul shows us this example here:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

No matter what "work" or act of "obedience" that Abraham did, it would not and could not "justify" that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit. This is also "why" we are only justified on the basis of faith in Christ. Because we all bear that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit.

This is the unavoidable conclusion of TRUTH. No work will justify the FLESH, because it is and remains contrary to the Spirit.

Abraham shows us this exact matter here, and was speaking by the Spirit of Christ who was IN him, to speak TRUTHFULLY. And in this Abraham speaks IDENTICALLY to Paul and they BOTH spoke from the Spirit of Christ, truthfully.

Here is Abraham's sight of himself, which is identical to Paul's statement above:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Abraham/Paul = IDENTICAL in this regards.

Believers can "work" acts of obedience til they are blue in the face for their efforts. No one eliminates the contrariness between the Spirit and the FLESH. And that is the Word of TRUTH.

The specifics of your conversation with others is so convoluted with you talking in circles and rude remarks, that I will leave that between you guys.

I take it that you will not commit to an answer about Abraham "losing his faith/justification" at this point since it has gone without an answer from your end. And instead, you slur me, thinking you have somehow won a ridiculous position statement from both of your ends.

The "flesh" never cares to hear THE TRUTH, does it? No, because it is and remains CONTRARY to the Spirit, just as Abraham and Paul show us.

 

[dadof10]

Yeah. I think it's probably a rather common experience in the church. It seems from what people have related is that what happens is the seeds of doubt appear in them even as they go about their 'Christian' activities and their seeking God for this or that. Finally, the seeds take root and the unbelief becomes apparent. But to say that they lost God's justification right from the very first appearances of unbelief is not consistent with the Hebrew's experience in the Bible. The author speaks to them of the justification that is already a fact in them because of the ministry of Christ (Hebrews 7-9), and then warns them of what will eventually happen if they 'keep on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26-29), not that it's already happened and that they need to get re-justified.

Do you think these verses in Hebrews refer to people who let the "seeds of doubt" take root and they eventually fade into unbelief, or do you think they are referring to people who flat out apostatize? Let's take a look at Heb. 10 and see.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:26-36 NASB)

The "common experience" you describe above is light years away from the person described in Hebrews, who has "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace". I have known many people who have faded away from the faith, but have not totally apostatized and gone completely anti-Christian. In fact, I agree that it is a common experience, especially in churches that teach salvation by faith alone and OSAS. If you think about it, why not "go on sinning"? It won't effect their salvation, so away they go...But they don't reach the level of "trampling under foot the Son of God" and insulting "the Spirit of Grace".

For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.(Heb 10:26-36 NASB)

The author is talking to specific people who are being persecuted. He is exhorting them to hold fast through these "reproaches and tribulations". Part of the relief of these persecutions might include public rejection of Christ, in the vein of the way Christians are treated in Muslim countries. We know these kinds of ultimatums existed in antiquity. It's possible that there were people in power who were "seizing property" and even imprisoning Christians at this time unless they rejected the faith. The author was encouraging believers to keep their "confidence" and endurance" in the face of it.

Now, I don't know for a fact that an historical persecution is the exact reason for this section of Hebrews, but it seems likely. It might have been a local persecution...I don't know. Either way, the author is not exhorting people from falling away from the faith under the conditions you are assuming exist in the "common experience" you describe above. The people being addressed in this letter are being persecuted to some extent, and are being encouraged to not totally reject Christ, as opposed to simply fade away. Total rejection of Christ under persecution to relieve possible imprisonment and "seizure of your property" is what's being described, not simply falling away because the "worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful".

 

[dadof10]

What you're not getting is I'm saying he has not lost his justification at this point that he somehow needs to be re-justified. That is not the message that the author delivers to the Hebrew church. Instead, it is a message of 'this is the reality even now, but you'll lose it if you keep traveling in this vein of unbelief you are in'. No message of needing to be re-justified. Just a message of what will eventually happen to them--and the warning that there is no way back once that happens (Hebrews 6:4-6).

What you are saying is that a "former believer", a person who used to believe, but doesn't anymore, an unbeliever, can be justified. I hope you clarify this seeming contradiction in a future post because "former believer" is by anyone's definition an unbeliever. If you didn't mean "former believer", just say so.

 

[dadof10]

The mistake you are making is passing judgment of when and where the former believer loses the effect of Christ's ministry.

The mistake I'm making is reading the words you write and putting the actual defined meaning to them. Again, "former" (having previously filled a particular role or been a particular thing") believer means, by anyone's definition, a person who no longer believes, not someone who is "toying with unbelief".

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...521&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=former+definition

You're trying to tie that directly to every minute instance of unbelief. Hebrews show us God does not do that. Paul's letter to the Galatians is another example of God's probationary period of grace extended to the believer who has lost his confidence in Christ.

"Lost his confidence in Christ" or doesn't believe in Him anymore? "Former believer" assumes the latter.

The commendable faith of the unjustified is in regard to their faith prior to actually being justified.

I know you believe this. I was just taking a cheap shot, like you did here:

As I say, I know this is probably a hard thing for you to grasp because if I'm not mistaken your denomination does not teach the born again experience.

You are mistaken. Being "born again" (initial justification) happens at baptism, but that's another thread.