The Rapture Deception

[Edward]

Ed,
I don't believe there's any rapture.
Jesus is coming back one time....at the end of everything.
He's not coming back twice: Once to get the saved out, and then again at the end.

I'm not sure about any 1,000 year reign. Is this in Revelation? This book is symbolic to me except for very few verse. I can't really handle it.

You do make an interesting comment at the end...you said:
I don't believe that everyone who is saved is the Bride of Christ. Only the spotless ones, and that does make sense.

Isn't the Church (the Body of Christ) the Bride??
Who are the spotless ones? You know somebody that's spotless?
Isn't JESUS supposed to make us spotless in God's eyes,,,presenting us to Him
without blame.
1 Colossiand 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

If two different types are presented to God,,,then, by golly, maybe there is a purgatory!
(which is necessary in that doctrine, to make us holy and blameless).

Please explain.

I will explain. Or try at least because that's quite a bit to think about, lol. Plus I am so busy today and maybe for a day or three. I got my stimulus money today and now I have lots to do. And my brother is coming up to visit for a few days too...so, be patient.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see nothing in any of the scriptures you mention that could be construed to mean people can get a " second chance " ?
It sounds to me that this is really what is at the heart of what does not
" set well " with you ?
That is unfortunate because that is an anti-biblical concept and there is no scripture that can be pointed to in the bible which indicates a " second chance " with Jesus is possible .
It is ironic that you say you base belief exclusively on what is within the scriptures ,
and yet there is no instance in the whole bible of someone using a " second chance "
with Jesus after rejecting Him .
None .

Where in what I have posted throughout this thread did I ever say there is a second chance? This is what all those pretribbers teach is that there is a second chance as they believe Christ returns twice.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42, 43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on the new earth with all the saints of God forever when this present earth and heaven pass away and God renews all things ushering down the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1 2.

Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding (great tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark


Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast

Rev 20:4-6 these verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened

First woe
First trumpet Rev 8:6-7
Second trumpet Rev 8:8,9
Third trumpet Rev 8:10,11
Fourth trumpet Rev 8:12,13
Fifth trumpet Rev 9:1-12
Second woe
Sixth trumpet Rev 9:13 through 11:14
Third woe
Seventh trumpet Rev 11:15 through Rev 20:15 (seventh trumpet includes all the events that unfold and ends with the great white throne judgment)

 

[GodsGrace]

I will explain. Or try at least because that's quite a bit to think about, lol. Plus I am so busy today and maybe for a day or three. I got my stimulus money today and now I have lots to do. And my brother is coming up to visit for a few days too...so, be patient.

No problem.
I never heard of this before.
It'll be interesting.
And if you forget,,,it'll come up again eventually.
Go spend that money!
(am I getting any????)
I mean stimulus money.
Am I on Donald's list??

 

[Consecrated Life]

That does not sound right to me . Everyone on earth will either take the mark or be killed is my understanding of scripture.

Its what they teach ,its why im amil

Who is "they" ?
I'm speaking of what the scripture teaches :

" ..as many that would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
( Revelation 13:15 )

 

[jasonc]

Who is "they" ?
I'm speaking of what the scripture teaches :

" ..as many that would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
( Revelation 13:15 )

The churches that teach a pre trip rapture that are pre mil teach that were will be survivors who aren't saved and didn't worship,the beast .

Other wise who is raised to be in the millennium if the church is not there and all are dead?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Where in what I have posted throughout this thread did I ever say there is a second chance? This is what all those pretribbers teach is that there is a second chance as they believe Christ returns twice.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42, 43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on the new earth with all the saints of God forever when this present earth and heaven pass away and God renews all things ushering down the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1 2.

Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding (great tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark


Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast

Rev 20:4-6 these verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened

First woe
First trumpet Rev 8:6-7
Second trumpet Rev 8:8,9
Third trumpet Rev 8:10,11
Fourth trumpet Rev 8:12,13
Fifth trumpet Rev 9:1-12
Second woe
Sixth trumpet Rev 9:13 through 11:14
Third woe
Seventh trumpet Rev 11:15 through Rev 20:15 (seventh trumpet includes all the events that unfold and ends with the great white throne judgment)

I see nothing in any of the scriptures you mention that could be construed to mean people can get a " second chance " ?
It sounds to me that this is really what is at the heart of what does not
" set well " with you ?
That is unfortunate because that is an anti-biblical concept and there is no scripture that can be pointed to in the bible which indicates a " second chance " with Jesus is possible .
It is ironic that you say you base belief exclusively on what is within the scriptures ,
and yet there is no instance in the whole bible of someone using a " second chance "
with Jesus after rejecting Him .
None .

Where in what I have posted throughout this thread did I ever say there is a second chance? This is what all those pretribbers teach is that there is a second chance as they believe Christ returns twice.

You first said the idea of Jesus rapturing His children did not " set well " with you, without any mention of a " second chance " component .
You only mentioned the "second chance " thing when I followed up by asking you what is it about Jesus rapturing His children that does not "Set well " with you .
So after unpacking this a little more it seems obvious that your real issue is not with the rapture itself , but with this idea of a "second chance " which actually has no basis in scripture?
They are two separate issues .
I agree with you on the " second chance " deal by the way .
I dismiss that out of hand as well, as there is no scriptural basis for it .
But I am still not clear if it is the rapture itself is problematic for you.
Did the rapture " set well " with you until someone told you about the " second chance" clause ?
Or were you taught both things together ?
Its funny because any pre-trib person I have ever talked with thought the exact opposite .
Once you have rejected Christ your only chance to change your mind is before the rapture .
So there obviously must be two different schools of pre-trib , although I have never met any from the school you say taught you this .
Were these Pastors who taught you this of a specific denomination ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

The churches that teach a pre trip rapture that are pre mil teach that were will be survivors who aren't saved and didn't worship,the beast .

Other wise who is raised to be in the millennium if the church is not there and all are dead?

Do they have a scripture for that ?

 

[jasonc]

Do they have a scripture for that ?

Commentary ,unless you,take revelation 20 and its mentioned of Satan let loose from the abyss and raising an army to attack the city of Jerusalem .where do those nations come from ,the church ?nope per futurism these are in heaven .

 

[jasonc]

Do they have a scripture for that ?

Commentary ,unless you,take revelation 20 and its mentioned of Satan let loose from the abyss and raising an army to attack the city of Jerusalem .where do those nations come from ,the church ?nope per futurism these are in heaven .

 

[Consecrated Life]

Commentary ,unless you,take revelation 20 and its mentioned of Satan let loose from the abyss and raising an army to attack the city of Jerusalem .where do those nations come from ,the church ?nope per futurism these are in heaven .

This would be those who have never rejected Jesus.

 

[jerry63935]

one thing about it there is no rapture deception. he will return to take his Church out of here when its God timing . when the church is took out as i said it will be hell on earth not just fire . but tribulation like no man has ever seen. paul writes the mystery of iniquity is at work. it was happening in his days and is increasing more and more as the days increase 2 Thessalonians 2:7 .the Holy spirit is the restraint power. those who are his posses the Holy spirit. yes i do believe there will be a 7 year tribulation and i dont see the Church going through the tribulation God will put out called the wrath of God. what we are seeing right now is a drop in the bucket for things to come. agree disagree post scripture you think counter my post. have at it i stand where i stand

 

[jasonc]

This would be those who have never rejected Jesus.

Ok ,so there two churches .where is there a double return,and also the idea of those who believed not being raised up to any new body .because it speaks of only one,mention of a new body at the usage of the verses used for this.

Meaning those believed and are there at the return,Jesus also said he returns once not twice ,Paul nor john can contradict this.


Its where that it says something about Jesus coming back to build a church?

This is why I am amillienial.because none of the wirds of Jesus say he is coming back to restore the earth partially and remove one church to simply have another to teach it self ,something they already knew,only the saved who would have to be Holy to approach Jesus,to also be that faithful to see him in person ,i added this because Jesus says he is coming back and its for the a few reasons to bring and end to it all ,to bring sin and death to end.

The typical versus for the chalism list the Torah in effect,circumcision and also no,gentike can commune with God as much as a new could with the priest.

Not that Amil isn't problematic .

 

[for_his_glory]

You first said the idea of Jesus rapturing His children did not " set well " with you, without any mention of a " second chance " component .
You only mentioned the "second chance " thing when I followed up by asking you what is it about Jesus rapturing His children that does not "Set well " with you .
So after unpacking this a little more it seems obvious that your real issue is not with the rapture itself , but with this idea of a "second chance " which actually has no basis in scripture?
They are two separate issues .
I agree with you on the " second chance " deal by the way .
I dismiss that out of hand as well, as there is no scriptural basis for it .
But I am still not clear if it is the rapture itself is problematic for you.
Did the rapture " set well " with you until someone told you about the " second chance" clause ?
Or were you taught both things together ?
Its funny because any pre-trib person I have ever talked with thought the exact opposite .
Once you have rejected Christ your only chance to change your mind is before the rapture .
So there obviously must be two different schools of pre-trib , although I have never met any from the school you say taught you this .
Were these Pastors who taught you this of a specific denomination ?

I really do not like the word rapture as scripture calls it being caught up to Christ, but for the sake of this topic I will use the word rapture.

What did not set well with me, and after searching the scriptures, there is nothing in them that says we are taken up to Christ before the seven trumpets of God's great wrath begins, which they call "The Great Seven Year Tribulation" which is also a false teaching. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through including God's great wrath to come before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven. Matthew 24:36, 37; Deuteronomy 4:29-31; Matthew 24:21; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:17; Matthew 24:13.

These pretrib teachers like to use Rev 4:1, 2 as their main scripture proof, but that is not what these verses teach. They also use 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18 plus many other OT and NT scriptures as they make them fit their theories.

Pretrib rapture and having a second chance goes hand in hand with these false teachings as in what they teach and we can see in all those Left Behind books and movies.

It's only those who have no truth found in them are those who reject Christ because they have not ears to hear the Gospel preached before them. Any one can change their minds and accept Christ before the door of salvation is closed when He returns, except hose who take the mark of the beast will have already made their allegiance to this Luciferian system and it's false god and there is no turning back from that.

These are the Pastors that taught me pretrib from 1972-1998 through what they wrote and what they taught later on through their TV shows.

J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis, Tim LaHaye, J. Vernon McGee, Perry Stone, Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Chuck Missler, Grant Jeffery, Thomas Ice, David Jeremiah, John F. MacArthur and John Hagee

 

[for_his_glory]

I need to backtrack a little bit in order to show the chronology of the events that will take place at this time on the last day. When Christ returns in the clouds every eye will see Him and the earth will wail His coming, Rev 1:7. The earth is those who are worldly that followed after the beast from every nation. The kings of the earth and their armies are those political leaders of every nation that will gather their armies to fight against Christ when He returns when they see Him coming in the air.

At this time those who are in the grave and alive at His coming that are His own will then be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The last day has no ending for we know from that point on we will be with the Lord for ever. We can not see this as a 24 hour day as this is the time of our seventh day rest like that of God in Genesis 2:3 as He sanctified that day and set it apart from all the other days that were evening and morning, but this seventh day had no evening.

Right before Christ returns the great harlot and mystery Babylon, being the revived Roman Empire, will be destroyed, Rev 17, 18. The marriage supper of the Lamb follows after this with Christ returning in the air with His army of angels who are the host of heaven, Rev 19:11-14. He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are asleep in their graves and those still alive at His coming that are His own. We are then given our new glorified bodies and caught up in the clouds to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Once we are safely with Christ in the air, then just by Him speaking the words He takes the beast and false prophet (son of perdition) alive and cast them into the lake of fire. All those leaders from every nation on every continent that followed after the beast will be slain by the words Jesus speaks as what we read in Rev 19 is all done by Christ being in the air where we are yet with Him before He plants His feet on the mount of Olives.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Pretrib rapture and having a second chance goes hand in hand with these false teachings

As I said I have never spoken with another pre trib believer who believed that anyone who had rejected Jesus before the rapture would be given a " second chance " , so this theory is new to me .
Exactly who is it that gets a "second chance " in this teaching you are talking about ?
And what are some of the conditions surrounding this second chance , is there an expiration date ?

 

[for_his_glory]

As I said I have never spoken with another pre trib believer who believed that anyone who had rejected Jesus before the rapture would be given a " second chance " , so this theory is new to me .
Exactly who is it that gets a "second chance " in this teaching you are talking about ?
And what are some of the conditions surrounding this second chance , is there an expiration date ?

These are just that, theories without any scriptural support.

I have no idea who you have spoken to, but the pretrib Pastor's teach that Christ returns twice. Once to rapture the church before some seven year tribulation and then comes again to destroy the beast and false prophet. They teach before Christ returns a second time that others have a chance to repent before Jesus returns. These are false deceptive teachings found nowhere in scripture.

 

[Consecrated Life]

These are just that, theories without any scriptural support.

They teach before Christ returns a second time that others have a chance to repent before Jesus returns.

In this theory are these "second chance "/ others" repenting because they have realized they are sinners, or are they repenting of rejecting the gospel that they have already had preached to them before the rapture ?
These are two completely different animals , and no small point .

 

[jerry63935]

They teach before Christ returns a second time that others have a chance to repent before Jesus returns

the only teaching close to this i have heard is after the Church is taken out and th mark of the beast in instituted in. one would literally have to be martyred for Christ .denying the mark . ven at that and there is scripture that seems to say this. i dont go along with this/. i though alot about your statement on the pre trib teachers being false teachers..... you have deemed them FAKE you have no authority to say that. i am not a john hagee follower . i do however like David Jeremiah rather well. he is southern baptist and they do teach pre trib. that is there interpretation of scriptures . just like you have yours .just because you do not agree with pre trib does NOT make one false . even though in many areas i disagree with your anti pre trib .i do not consider you a false teacher

 

[jerry63935]

let me add i am not southern baptist how ever i do not agree with going through the major tribulation . it will either be pre or mid. i just about lean toward mid trib. the most important thing in bible prophecy is make % 100 sure your saved. children of the day will not miss out . the only way to be a child of the day is have a know so salvation.by having Christ the Light of teh world in your heart romans 10:10

 

[jerry63935]

As I said I have never spoken with another pre trib believer who believed that anyone who had rejected Jesus before the rapture would be given a " second chance " , so this theory is new to me .

same here