The Rapture

[killiekrankie]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

The context of verse 18 is always being with the Lord, not avoiding the tribulation.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs just before the rapture, at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

I think if you study about when the coming of the Lord is, and the resurrection, you will discover the truth very easily.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3




JLB
.

Hello! Interesting post, thanks. One part that has always intrigued me:- Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17). For those on earth during the Tribulation who did not die from natural disasters, war or pestilence the choice comes of take the mark (and suffer eternal torments) or suffer martyrdom. All either take the mark or are killed. So who are the living remaining? Not the first group who took the mark. They're not going to be with the Lord. And not the second group because they were martyred. Kind Regards.

 

[JLB]

Hello! Interesting post, thanks. One part that has always intrigued me:- Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17). For those on earth during the Tribulation who did not die from natural disasters, war or pestilence the choice comes of take the mark (and suffer eternal torments) or suffer martyrdom. All either take the mark or are killed. So who are the living remaining? Not the first group who took the mark. They're not going to be with the Lord. And not the second group because they were martyred. Kind Regards.

Whats more intetesting is the two groups of Christians on earth during the great tribulation (3.5 years, 1260 days, time, times and a half of time).

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Revelation 12:13-14

This language of "two wings of a great eagle" is indictative of the protection of God over the children of Israel (cloud by day and a fire by night) when He delivered them from the Pharoah (world ruler).


And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:17



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I think you think I am talking about the Rapture... I am not.
I believe the Rapture comes after the Millennium. So not for a while.
I speak of the beginning of death and suffering on this earth... the Tribulation.
That can spread over many years and I feel that history will look back and say it started 2023.

I know you are not talking about the Rapture, but giving a date of 2023 for the sounding of the first trumpet (if that's what you meant) that will bring with it much tribulation ending with the seventh trumpet is date setting as no one knows when God will give his angels to sound the seven trumpets nor the length of time between them.

IMO, I see the succession of the seven trumpets quickly following each one with the seventh trumpet sounding that begins the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition forcing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death for not renouncing Christ. This will be the greatest time of our faith in witnessing Christ to others, even speaking of Him with our dying breath.

 

[Edward]

IMO, I see the succession of the seven trumpets quickly following each one with the seventh trumpet sounding that begins the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition forcing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death for not renouncing Christ. This will be the greatest time of our faith in witnessing Christ to others, even speaking of Him with our dying breath.

Let me see if I have this right. Have you ever seen any soldier return to base after the fight without a speck of dirt on him?

No? Ok, then pray tell, how is the Bride going to be spotless and without blemish coming off the battlefield of the great trib? You guys are literally saying that, we go from the war to the rapture to the Marriage supper?!!

Honey, I'll beat the tar out of you, and then we'll go to dinner! ??? Not! Your Lord is not like that! In Matthew 24, the disciples come to Jesus privately. Jesus gives them a private briefing and speaks on many things. When Jesus changed the subject the disciples knew it instantly. But if you weren't weaned on them languages you have to pay real close attention to the text because it's easy to miss that and lump all those scriptures into the idea that it is one event. It is easy to do that.

From another angle....As it was in the days of Noah,
In the days of Noah, Judgement came. Most perished in the judgment but 8 souls were lifted up above the destruction and saved. (Noah and his family). That's analogous to the Rapture, before the Judgment some were saved and did not have to experience the judgment.

Same thing with the rapture. It is right before the great tribulation. Then who knows how long until the antichrist signs the 7 year treaty with Israel and 2520 days after that is the day that Jesus returns in glory.

 

[dwb001]

I know you are not talking about the Rapture, but giving a date of 2023 for the sounding of the first trumpet (if that's what you meant) that will bring with it much tribulation ending with the seventh trumpet is date setting as no one knows when God will give his angels to sound the seven trumpets nor the length of time between them.

IMO, I see the succession of the seven trumpets quickly following each one with the seventh trumpet sounding that begins the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition forcing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death for not renouncing Christ. This will be the greatest time of our faith in witnessing Christ to others, even speaking of Him with our dying breath.

So you don't know what I am talking about.
Not talking about dates, times or trumpets.

 

[for_his_glory]

So you don't know what I am talking about.
Not talking about dates, times or trumpets.

apparently not so what did you mean by giving a date of 2023?

 

[dwb001]

apparently not so what did you mean by giving a date of 2023?

The time of my death.

 

[for_his_glory]

Let me see if I have this right. Have you ever seen any soldier return to base after the fight without a speck of dirt on him?

No? Ok, then pray tell, how is the Bride going to be spotless and without blemish coming off the battlefield of the great trib? You guys are literally saying that, we go from the war to the rapture to the Marriage supper?!!

Honey, I'll beat the tar out of you, and then we'll go to dinner! ??? Not! Your Lord is not like that! In Matthew 24, the disciples come to Jesus privately. Jesus gives them a private briefing and speaks on many things. When Jesus changed the subject the disciples knew it instantly. But if you weren't weaned on them languages you have to pay real close attention to the text because it's easy to miss that and lump all those scriptures into the idea that it is one event. It is easy to do that.

From another angle....As it was in the days of Noah,
In the days of Noah, Judgement came. Most perished in the judgment but 8 souls were lifted up above the destruction and saved. (Noah and his family). That's analogous to the Rapture, before the Judgment some were saved and did not have to experience the judgment.

Same thing with the rapture. It is right before the great tribulation. Then who knows how long until the antichrist signs the 7 year treaty with Israel and 2520 days after that is the day that Jesus returns in glory.

Where did I say anything about a war or that anything in Matthew 24 was all lumped up as one event?

You have every right to believe how you want, but I have to disagree so there really is no more I can give to this thread and bid you a good day brother.

 

[for_his_glory]

The time of my death.

Are you literally dying this year? I'm confused.

 

[dwb001]

Are you literally dying this year? I'm confused.

Yes and no.
But health concerns aside... The reference you failed to read would spell it out.
Awaiting a time to stand for my faith that will result in my death later this year.

 

[JLB]

No? Ok, then pray tell, how is the Bride going to be spotless and without blemish coming off the battlefield of the great trib? You guys are literally saying that, we go from the war to the rapture to the Marriage supper?!!

Most of the bride will be in heaven when the time comes for Jesus to return with them, because they have been martyred during the great tribulation.

Remaining faithful unto death is how they have made themselves ready… how their robes were made white.


Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14



For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” Revelation 19:2-7



JLB

 

[Edward]

Where did I say anything about a war or that anything in Matthew 24 was all lumped up as one event?

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I said that. Not you. What I mean is,

There is rapture scriptures and there is the 2nd coming scriptures and so it makes it easy to misunderstand that they are two different events, not one event. Many people do this. I did too for quite awhile! Until someone showed me the difference netween rapture scriptures and 2nd coming scriptures.

There's actually a lot of differences.

 

[dwb001]

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I said that. Not you. What I mean is,

There is rapture scriptures and there is the 2nd coming scriptures and so it makes it easy to misunderstand that they are two different events, not one event. Many people do this. I did too for quite awhile! Until someone showed me the difference netween rapture scriptures and 2nd coming scriptures.

There's actually a lot of differences.

Yeah... I think so too.
But I think the Rapture comes after the 2nd Coming.

 

[JLB]

There is rapture scriptures and there is the 2nd coming scriptures and so it makes it easy to misunderstand that they are two different events,

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15



Here we easily see that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


Do you believe this is the first coming or the second coming.


Coming refers to Parousia and refers to the Second Coming of Christ, when He destroys the wicked and sets up His eternal kingdom on earth.


JLB

 

[dwb001]

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Actually this verse does not prove that the Rapture and Resurrection occur at His coming.
At best it simply states that the living will not get there before the dead.

 

[JLB]

Yeah... I think so too.
But I think the Rapture comes after the 2nd Coming.

The resurrection and rapture both occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



JLB

 

[Edward]

Most of the bride will be in heaven when the time comes for Jesus to return with them, because they have been martyred during the great tribulation.

Remaining faithful unto death is how they have made themselves ready… how their robes were made white.


Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14



For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” Revelation 19:2-7



JLB

How does the scripture about, when the restrainer is taken away, figure into this? The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, right?

So...God takes away His Holy Spirit to let Hid Bride fend for herself??!! The Holy Spirit Restrainer is taken away with the church at the rapture.

And what of the souls under the altar? Souls that were slain during the great tribulation, not the Bride, those who came to know the Lord during tribulation.

It's either that or no one gets saved during the tribulation at all. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Edward]

Actually this verse does not prove that the Rapture and Resurrection occur at His coming.
At best it simply states that the living will not get there before the dead.

Most of the dead have been waiting longer than we have been waiting. So that's just the Lord being fair and raising them up before the living transform at that time.

 

[dwb001]

The resurrection and rapture both occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

This verse does not say what you think it does.

Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.

The first verse does not mention this... oh you are prefacing the reference.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



JLB

But the 2nd verse does not give the time frame you think it does.
Where in Revelation does the Rapture occur?
I would say the one place where Revelation and your 1 Thes verse overlap would be Rev 20:13

 

[dwb001]

Most of the dead have been waiting longer than we have been waiting. So that's just the Lord being fair and raising them up before the living transform at that time.

Where in the Bible is that idea?
Where does Jesus say He is Resurrecting people in a certain order to be fair?